The AI undoubtely will cross your borders, it's called the 'Deity AI Right of Passage'. It's a permanent arrangement I'm afraid... (...to be used to the humans advantage ultimately. 
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GOTM 37: Pre-Game Discussion
- Thread starter ainwood
- Start date
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- Oct 5, 2001
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Sorry people - I didn't have access to the editor to check the rest of the world settings when I posted this - although I think I got the important ones!
IIRC, its 5 billion, normal-but-cool. Barbs are restless (and its quite fun to watch the AI run all over the place after them!). I'll confirm the actual settings tonight, and update the main post.
IIRC, its 5 billion, normal-but-cool. Barbs are restless (and its quite fun to watch the AI run all over the place after them!). I'll confirm the actual settings tonight, and update the main post.
eldar
ChiefTank
Ooh, just curious, but what are the Predator-class 'handicaps' likely to be?
Neil.
Neil.
denyd
Emperor
To make it really difficult for the predators: No Settler 
Actually rather than give something to the AI, it's probably better off to remove something (say either the original worker or scout) from the human. For the top players helping the AI always seems to get turned into helping the human.
On a slightly different topic, what did Hiawatha do to piss off the GOTM staff? The only two GOTM's with the Iroquois have both been at diety. The Zulus on the other hand must have been bribing the staff to get a Monarch & a Regent game in their two games.
Is this the "end of the year special" or would that be GOTM 38?
Actually rather than give something to the AI, it's probably better off to remove something (say either the original worker or scout) from the human. For the top players helping the AI always seems to get turned into helping the human.
On a slightly different topic, what did Hiawatha do to piss off the GOTM staff? The only two GOTM's with the Iroquois have both been at diety. The Zulus on the other hand must have been bribing the staff to get a Monarch & a Regent game in their two games.
Is this the "end of the year special" or would that be GOTM 38?
I think I'll switch my goal for this game back to "Don't lose by conquest." I'll work toward a diplomatic victory and try to stay out of the sights of everyone else. It is my first deity game, too, but I now have 3 whole wins on emperor. It's probably time to move up, right? The start sure looks inviting, though.
I got Conquests for my birthday, and I've been trying to decide if I have time to play the COTM. If this had been a rotten start, I'd know I'd have plenty of time to play it after finishing this game quickly. Now that I have hopes of surviving a while, the decision isn't so easy.
I got Conquests for my birthday, and I've been trying to decide if I have time to play the COTM. If this had been a rotten start, I'd know I'd have plenty of time to play it after finishing this game quickly. Now that I have hopes of surviving a while, the decision isn't so easy.
Sandman2003
Prince
Yep. That is exactly what I had decided to do. With a fast research pace, the governments are likely to be available while many of our cities are still small, plus with the number of workers we may want around the capital to chop some forests, and launching a campaign against deity opponents with mounted warriors the unit support of monarchy has to be preferable over republic. As religious, mid-late MA we can change to republic without much anarchy penalty.Renata said:
Settle in place, I think. I am still thinking about the build order. On deity there isn't much time to be fancy - just need to get thiose settlers out fast as possible and claim some land before the AIs snatch it all.
)
denyd
Emperor
I'm thinking about a small city count type game (5 or 7), trying to use the Religious trait to give a boost towards Oracle & Hanging Gardens. It'll depend on who the opponents are and what their starting techs are. I'll know that before I move the scout.
Xerol
Emperor
First off, building a worker first is a waste of either 2 or 5 turns of production. Working the cow gives +3 food per turn, meaning growth in 7, but at the same time, 2 spt, meaning the worker will finish 2 turns before the population to support it will be there.
Settling in place sorta wastes one forest tile that can be chopped early for extra shields towards a granary. However, moving 1 NE, while keeping you on the river, puts off the Cows and Game for 10 turns, which can be a costly delay, not to mention the 1 turn lost from moving. I'll have to agree and say settle in place.
You're all so dazed by the start location that you haven't even started fog-gazing.
It looks like either desert or a hill(I'm not familiar with this graphics set) S->SE from the start. The 3 tiles to the NE all look like forest, and it looks like 2 forest and 1 grassland SW. 2SE looks like another grassland, and the one NE of that looks like more trees. 2W could either be plains or desert(once again unsure because of the tileset). The 2 unseen NW tiles look like more grass, and the hill can be seen. That just leaves the tile 2N which _might_ be either forest or another hill. Like I said, hard to tell with this tileset.
A settle in place at max size before sanitation would easily get more than enough food, but the amount of shields depends on how much you chop, and there's no way of seeing how many BG's are under the forest.
Scout will move N, NW to the hill, probably revealing absolutely nothing, as all the goodie huts will be through the slow forest. But it'll be a good start on scouting out a second city. I'm gonna get 2 MP warriors settled in, then not have to worry about happiness for a while and will be able to put more gold into all-important pre-contact research. Expansionist = Pottery, right? Not sure how accurate this'll be, but here's my guess at the capital's early production:
4000 BC: Settle, work cow. 0/20 food, +3pt, begin producing warrior(for MP purposes). 0/10 shields, +2pt. Research on Mysticism most likely, set slider for 0 change in gold reserves. Might do Wheel if Mysticism will take any more than 30 turns. Worker to furs.
3900 BC: 3/20 food, +3pt. Warrior 2/10 shields, +2pt. Worker begins road, 9? turns to complete.
3800 BC: 6/20 food, +3pt. Warrior 4/10 shields, +2pt.
3700 BC: 9/20 food, +3pt. Warrior 6/10 shields, +2pt.
3600 BC: 12/20 food, +3pt. Warrior 8/10 shields, +2pt.
3500 BC: 15/20 food, +3pt. Warrior finished, begin building second warrior 0/10 shields, +2pt.
3400 BC: 18/20 food, +3pt. Warrior 2/10 shields, +3pt. At this point I'll shift the single laborer to the game for one turn, so as not to waste a food.
3300 BC: Pop 2, 0/20 food, +3pt(One on game, one on cows). Warrior 6/10 shields, +4pt.
3200 BC: 3/20 food, +3pt. Second warrior finishes, begin working on settler. (0/30, +4spt, 8 turns to finish.)
Next few turns:
Food Shields
6/20 4/30
9/20 8/30
12/20 12/30
15/20 16/30
18/20 20/30
Right, now here I'll switch the laborer from the cow to the furs, netting one extra spt:
19/20 25/30
20/20 30/30 Bam! Perfect first settler, on turn #16. From here I'll probably go to building a granary. Meanwhile, hopefully the scout has picked out at least one good settling location. The worker will finish roading the furs and then get working on chopping away that forest to go towards the granary, then probably road/irrigate the cow, then chop game, road game, probably mine game or begin roading to second city(they'll need furs too).
Settling in place sorta wastes one forest tile that can be chopped early for extra shields towards a granary. However, moving 1 NE, while keeping you on the river, puts off the Cows and Game for 10 turns, which can be a costly delay, not to mention the 1 turn lost from moving. I'll have to agree and say settle in place.
You're all so dazed by the start location that you haven't even started fog-gazing.
It looks like either desert or a hill(I'm not familiar with this graphics set) S->SE from the start. The 3 tiles to the NE all look like forest, and it looks like 2 forest and 1 grassland SW. 2SE looks like another grassland, and the one NE of that looks like more trees. 2W could either be plains or desert(once again unsure because of the tileset). The 2 unseen NW tiles look like more grass, and the hill can be seen. That just leaves the tile 2N which _might_ be either forest or another hill. Like I said, hard to tell with this tileset.
A settle in place at max size before sanitation would easily get more than enough food, but the amount of shields depends on how much you chop, and there's no way of seeing how many BG's are under the forest.
Scout will move N, NW to the hill, probably revealing absolutely nothing, as all the goodie huts will be through the slow forest. But it'll be a good start on scouting out a second city. I'm gonna get 2 MP warriors settled in, then not have to worry about happiness for a while and will be able to put more gold into all-important pre-contact research. Expansionist = Pottery, right? Not sure how accurate this'll be, but here's my guess at the capital's early production:
4000 BC: Settle, work cow. 0/20 food, +3pt, begin producing warrior(for MP purposes). 0/10 shields, +2pt. Research on Mysticism most likely, set slider for 0 change in gold reserves. Might do Wheel if Mysticism will take any more than 30 turns. Worker to furs.
3900 BC: 3/20 food, +3pt. Warrior 2/10 shields, +2pt. Worker begins road, 9? turns to complete.
3800 BC: 6/20 food, +3pt. Warrior 4/10 shields, +2pt.
3700 BC: 9/20 food, +3pt. Warrior 6/10 shields, +2pt.
3600 BC: 12/20 food, +3pt. Warrior 8/10 shields, +2pt.
3500 BC: 15/20 food, +3pt. Warrior finished, begin building second warrior 0/10 shields, +2pt.
3400 BC: 18/20 food, +3pt. Warrior 2/10 shields, +3pt. At this point I'll shift the single laborer to the game for one turn, so as not to waste a food.
3300 BC: Pop 2, 0/20 food, +3pt(One on game, one on cows). Warrior 6/10 shields, +4pt.
3200 BC: 3/20 food, +3pt. Second warrior finishes, begin working on settler. (0/30, +4spt, 8 turns to finish.)
Next few turns:
Food Shields
6/20 4/30
9/20 8/30
12/20 12/30
15/20 16/30
18/20 20/30
Right, now here I'll switch the laborer from the cow to the furs, netting one extra spt:
19/20 25/30
20/20 30/30 Bam! Perfect first settler, on turn #16. From here I'll probably go to building a granary. Meanwhile, hopefully the scout has picked out at least one good settling location. The worker will finish roading the furs and then get working on chopping away that forest to go towards the granary, then probably road/irrigate the cow, then chop game, road game, probably mine game or begin roading to second city(they'll need furs too).
michael4000
The Culture
This just might be the time for this humble monarch to find out what Diety feels like. My guess is, it feels pretty painful. But educational! If I don't get the GOTM 36 ambulance, maybe I can get one here.
Roland Ehnström
Prince
QwertySoft said:
Well, I was thinking of building an MP Warrior first, THEN a Worker. The original Worker would go to the cow first, irrigate, road, then move to the Game, chop, irrigate, road. The second Worker would go to the Fur, chop, road, mine, and then to the BG, mine, road.
QwertySoft said:
Don't you think irrigating the cow has higher priority than building a road to the Fur (takes 6 turns, btw)? Also, building a road to the Fur before chopping the forest seems to me like a waste of two worker turns (chop + road = 14 turns ; road + chop = 16 turns) for just 8 turns of increased happiness (worth maximum 8 gold).
-- Roland
Xerol
Emperor
Well, there's no point in chopping the forest to build a worker or warrior.
We're not industrious, are we? Current GOTM it's taking me 6 turns to build a road, and it takes longer to do it over forest. As much as an early second worker would be helpful, it delays the first settler since you have to wait an extra 7 turns minimum(unless you do irrigate the cows, but at most that saves 4 turns). I'm gonna stick with my plan, and after the settler build Warrior, Worker, sending the 3rd warrior south to look for huts(if the scout hasn't gone around yet. Chances are there's a large inland lake to the north a bit and he'll have to choose west or east to scout around.)
We're not industrious, are we? Current GOTM it's taking me 6 turns to build a road, and it takes longer to do it over forest. As much as an early second worker would be helpful, it delays the first settler since you have to wait an extra 7 turns minimum(unless you do irrigate the cows, but at most that saves 4 turns). I'm gonna stick with my plan, and after the settler build Warrior, Worker, sending the 3rd warrior south to look for huts(if the scout hasn't gone around yet. Chances are there's a large inland lake to the north a bit and he'll have to choose west or east to scout around.)
I'm surprised no one's mentioned yet building scouts instead of warriors first (and second and third even, possibly). With this being PTW and a Pangaea, contacts could wind up being huge for trade. The deity AI will have units out en masse, but they still stink at directed exploring, and there may well still be a contact or three left to sell when writing turns up. And then of course map-selling a little later.
I think I'm going to build at least one scout, and likely two. The rest of the build queue will depend greatly on what they find -- neighbors nearby or even mid-distance and I'll probably skip the granary -- use the first forest chop to get out an early settler and keep MP needs minimal at the same time. Neighbors far away or blocked by bad terrain and I'll probably get in a warrior or two, then chop for the granary.
Still thinking, though - and of course all may change once the city is built and I can see all of its tiles. One thing: early workers can be *very* useful with starts that need a lot of worker turns to bring up to full potential. You lose a little speed in growth, some commerce, a few shields; but in return, your settler factory gets up to full power faster -- you don't waste any time at size 4, +5fpt and only +5spt, for example.
Renata
I think I'm going to build at least one scout, and likely two. The rest of the build queue will depend greatly on what they find -- neighbors nearby or even mid-distance and I'll probably skip the granary -- use the first forest chop to get out an early settler and keep MP needs minimal at the same time. Neighbors far away or blocked by bad terrain and I'll probably get in a warrior or two, then chop for the granary.
Still thinking, though - and of course all may change once the city is built and I can see all of its tiles. One thing: early workers can be *very* useful with starts that need a lot of worker turns to bring up to full potential. You lose a little speed in growth, some commerce, a few shields; but in return, your settler factory gets up to full power faster -- you don't waste any time at size 4, +5fpt and only +5spt, for example.
Renata
Xerol
Emperor
Well, you're not gonna be able to get past size 2 without building a couple of warriors unless you touch the lux slider...which I _might_ do once the city can support a 10% lux tax(with the river it shouldn't take long) but I'm gonna go all-out towards monarchy.
Actually, with the possibility of huts has anyone considered the writing trick for getting monarchy? You'd have to run at 100%(or get an early contact) alphabet to get around to it, I might just hold off on popping a hut until after alphy finishes. Not too long, mind you, but long enough to get to writing and set it on 0%, and hope to find 3 huts that'll give techs. Actually, if I'm gonna try this, building a scout seems like a good idea.
And everyone keeps talking about this being a "PTW" game...Vanilla's still supported, right? I still haven't got my replacement disc.
Actually, with the possibility of huts has anyone considered the writing trick for getting monarchy? You'd have to run at 100%(or get an early contact) alphabet to get around to it, I might just hold off on popping a hut until after alphy finishes. Not too long, mind you, but long enough to get to writing and set it on 0%, and hope to find 3 huts that'll give techs. Actually, if I'm gonna try this, building a scout seems like a good idea.
And everyone keeps talking about this being a "PTW" game...Vanilla's still supported, right? I still haven't got my replacement disc.
To address your topics in reverse order:
Yeah, vanilla's still supported. I just meant to contrast with the rules changes in C3C.
The writing trick --don't actually know exactly what it is, but guessing from context--seems highly iffy. The last time I was expansionist in deity was the first time I ever played it, in a SG, and it was also Pangaea. I can't remember how many huts we popped, but the results were something like empty empty empty maps empty empty 25 gold empty empty. Point being, you're pretty lucky to get even one tech. Three would be unheard of.
And eh, I'm not allergic to the lux slider. Depends what I'm trying to accomplish.
Renata
Yeah, vanilla's still supported.
I just meant to contrast with the rules changes in C3C.The writing trick --don't actually know exactly what it is, but guessing from context--seems highly iffy. The last time I was expansionist in deity was the first time I ever played it, in a SG, and it was also Pangaea. I can't remember how many huts we popped, but the results were something like empty empty empty maps empty empty 25 gold empty empty. Point being, you're pretty lucky to get even one tech. Three would be unheard of.
And eh, I'm not allergic to the lux slider. Depends what I'm trying to accomplish.
Renata
My limited experience of Diety tells me that the scouts will be important to find all the other civs quickly as well as get as many GHs asap. This will certainly be my first build and almost certainly my second as well. With a central location, we should be able to get many contacts quickly and get some sweet deals with techs whilst we have more contacts than the AI civs. Plenty of trading should help improve poor relations for a while.
I probably won't bother with research until I can get a decent 40 turn attempt that might just pay off (maths or currency?) and use that cash to fund tech deals and make sure that the lux slider is in full use to keep early production at maximum. Unless there are more food bonus tiles around close to us, I shall probably try for a granary after the first settler-maybe a warrior either side of the settler to discourage barbs from coming in our direction.
Oh yes, and I'll be praying that the AI doesn't accuse me of looking at them in a funny way.
I probably won't bother with research until I can get a decent 40 turn attempt that might just pay off (maths or currency?) and use that cash to fund tech deals and make sure that the lux slider is in full use to keep early production at maximum. Unless there are more food bonus tiles around close to us, I shall probably try for a granary after the first settler-maybe a warrior either side of the settler to discourage barbs from coming in our direction.
Oh yes, and I'll be praying that the AI doesn't accuse me of looking at them in a funny way.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
I have no qualms about using *any* amount on the luxury slider in the early game, up to 100% if I see value in it. (Generally though I'd have 90% as my limit while doing 40 turn research.)QwertySoft said:
In fact I think it is a very rare game at any difficulty level where I don't get up to at least 40% on the luxury slider for some turn(s) in the early game. At emperor and higher all the more so of course due to the single content citizen.
Dynamic
But not hurry
Offa said:
I think very early war is sacrifice on Deity level.
And about settler factory: may be other civs will be so closer that we haven't space for cities.
