GOTM 37: Pre-Game Discussion

SirPleb said:
I'm going to think a bit about opening sequences. My initial guess is that I'll want scout - worker - granary in the capital, with chop+irrigate of the game being the priority for both initial workers after irrigating the cattle.

So no Warrior for MP duty, then? I was going to ask that: On Deity, do you ever build Warriors simply to do MP duty, or do you always just use the luxury slider? Do you perhaps slightly later build Warriors in other towns and move two of them to the settler factory to keep happiness in check, or is that also not worth it, you think? Also related: On a Deity Pangaea, is it not a huge risk to leave your capitol undefended for a long time?

I really can't decide if I'm going to build a Scout or a Warrior as my first build.

-- Roland
 
Unless you are playing C3C, you should go for ring-city placement if at all possible. The benefit from decreased corruption is to big to ignore unless you have an overwhelming strategic reason for doing so.

As far as how much space we will have, that is completely up to Mr. Ainwood and where he put his little AIs homes. If he was feeling particularly :evil:, then we might only have room for four or five, and those packed very tight. However, if past games are any indication, we will probably have room for 15-20 cities (if you get a four-turn settler factory or two up and running), which is more than enough even on Diety level.
 
I have a couple of relative newbie questions. :blush:

First, in reading through the posts so far, I have noticed that most people are planning to work the cow then immediately go to the fur or game. I'm curious why one wouldn't work the bg before the fur or game? :confused: Going to the cow first is kind of obvious ( even to me ;) ) but road/mine the bg and then going to fur or game would seem the way to go.....what exactly is the benefit of working the forests before the bg. I do understand the benefit of the shields that you get from chopping and the benefit of a lux hook up ( or am I wrong about that too.....), but getting the moo and bg and then crossing the river to the forests seems a bit more efficient?!?!??! Please help. :confused:

The second, of my silly questions, is I would think that building a few more scouts early ( 2-3 ) would be of greater value than a worker or a warrior. Not forgetting the grainery asap; but, when I have played around on deity it seems that early exploration and contact is a greater benefit than almost anything else ( this is a general statement not meaning forgetting settlers and growth being highly important ). The more contacts early both helps keeping up in the tech pace and seeing exactly how much space one has to grow initially before having to open a can of civ woop a**.

I will add that some of the posts in this thead have been some of the most clear to me in how people develop the early game plan of moves and actions, and admit that there have been many previous posts I have read describing the counting of shields and food that have made my eyes cross in utter confusion :confused: :sad: :cry:.

Since I am just now really grasping the mircomanagement and forethought needed to become better in this game(or at least I hope so.... :mischief: ), I am hoping some of you might help me along with this.

My thanks to any who can clearify for me.
 
Once you have chopped the game forest you will have a +3 food (+4 food when irrigated) which with the cow will give you population growth every four turns instead of every five and more population gives you greater production and revenue. The shields from the forest will help get the granary and when that is built you have the food bonus requirement for a settler factory. As far better players than me have already said...
SirPleb said:
Roland Ehnström said:
Irrigating food-bouses ALWAYS pays off!
I think that's as close to an absolute rule as we have for Civ3!
...and I always look at that as my #1 priority if it will increase the rate of population growth. Just be prepared to use the lux slider!!!
 
Roland Ehnström said:
So no Warrior for MP duty, then? I was going to ask that: On Deity, do you ever build Warriors simply to do MP duty, or do you always just use the luxury slider? Do you perhaps slightly later build Warriors in other towns and move two of them to the settler factory to keep happiness in check, or is that also not worth it, you think? Also related: On a Deity Pangaea, is it not a huge risk to leave your capitol undefended for a long time?
I usually don't build warriors just to do MP duty. I tend to use the luxury slider whenever necessary, eventually using MPs when I have units available without extra effort to build them. E.g. because a scouting warrior has returned home, or because a new town somewhere built a warrior first to avoid overrunning shields when building a worker or settler, or because I have a warrior+settler factory and warriors to spare, or because I'm building some warriors as a minimal defense. For any of those reasons I can end up with a few units to spare and when they're not needed elsewhere they get used for MP duty. Sometimes I do build a unit or two specifically for MP duty when the game has progressed to a point where I have a number of cities and just a few need a lot of extra happiness. That sometimes happens with a settler factory or in a town building a wonder or FP.

It is a risk to leave the capital undefended at any level. It is only a bit worse at deity, and that mainly due to the number of units the AIs have I think. It seems to me that the risk depends most on the map - the paths the AI units follow in exploring it and how soon they run out of land. I don't understand the factors governing the risks very well. I do know that:
1) If an AI military unit can reach an undefended rival town in one turn (one step for a warrior, two for a horseman) then the chances of it declaring war are much higher at that moment. The AI is aware of the opportunity that situation presents.
2) I tend to push the limit a bit harder than I should. I've been nailed a couple of times by AIs attacking when I was far from ready, once painfully losing my undefended capital.

In my experience very early AI attacks other than the one mentioned in case (1) above are rare. So I try to play to that probability while maintaining a backup plan in case of disaster. For example, if I'm pumping two turn workers in an early town and there's no enemy within two tiles I'll be relatively unconcerned about protecting it. If an enemy moves within two tiles I can always flip my build to have a warrior before he arrives beside the town. The more scouting distance I have, and the more nearby units I have (even just a couple of warriors doing MP duty while inactive in a single central town) the less I'll worry about an AI invasion. Once I have Warrior Code I worry less again - there are often some early towns with a build of something else (e.g. barracks or galley) which can, if I feel threatened, switch to hurry an archer. Pop rushing is another safety valve.

Nonetheless, this is probably a map requiring more caution than most. We're near the center of a pangaea world. We might be a "grand central station" with AIs criss crossing our lands as they explore or march on each other. If that's the kind of situation that develops then I'll be building more early military units than usual! (Maybe even one per town? Nahhhh :lol: )

I also want to point out that if an AI decides to attack in the very early part of a deity game, there won't be any stopping it. I only remember having that happen on some small/tiny deity maps I tried. But I guess it is possible on any map. If it does happen that's the end. Having built 3 or 4 warriors won't make any difference. So I won't worry about it and won't try to block it since I can't :)

Nichelle said:
I have noticed that most people are planning to work the cow then immediately go to the fur or game. I'm curious why one wouldn't work the bg before the fur or game? :confused: Going to the cow first is kind of obvious ( even to me ;) ) but road/mine the bg and then going to fur or game would seem the way to go.....what exactly is the benefit of working the forests before the bg. I do understand the benefit of the shields that you get from chopping and the benefit of a lux hook up ( or am I wrong about that too.....), but getting the moo and bg and then crossing the river to the forests seems a bit more efficient?!?!??!
Welcome Nichelle!

I think you are right to be confused. It is not obvious to me that working any one of the game forest, fur forest, or BG after the cattle is definitely the best thing.

My first inclination is definitely to work the game forest after the cattle because that's the tile which can yield extra food. And extra food is usually the best thing to go for first.

Working the BG first has the advantage of sustaining maximum production. We can grow to size 2 while irrigating the cattle, then the second citizen could work the game forest while the worker mines the BG, and the third citizen would soon also be producing 2s/turn.

Working the fur forest has different advantages. After clearing it, mining it will produce a 2s+2f+2g tile, same as a mined roaded river BG. And roading it after clearing it (more efficient to do road on a cleared tile) will connect a luxury. Still to me this seems the worst of the 3 choices. It gains income by reducing the need for the luxury slider. But I don't expect to need income at the start anyway. I won't be doing flat out research at the start of a deity game. So I'm inclined to either go straight for the food (game forest) or go via the BG, mining it first and then heading for the game forest. The furs can come afterward.

To further complicate things there's the thought of producing a second worker very early. If we do that then mining the BG quickly is a bit less important - it will be longer before we reach size three and by then we can have done more other work.

So it isn't obvious what's best and that's even before we see more tiles and have our choices increased :)

Nichelle said:
I would think that building a few more scouts early ( 2-3 ) would be of greater value than a worker or a warrior. Not forgetting the grainery asap; but, when I have played around on deity it seems that early exploration and contact is a greater benefit than almost anything else ( this is a general statement not meaning forgetting settlers and growth being highly important ).
What you say about the benefits of early exploration is definitely true and I think especially so at deity level. To my mind the most important goal for early exploration is to try to maintain technical parity for a while. Eventually it will be lost at deity level unless we have great goody hut fortune. And probably won't be regained until at least the late Middle Ages and perhaps much later. But if we can maintain parity for a while at the start of Ancient Times it will help.

Early explorers can maintain tech parity for a while by:
a) Meeting other Civs while we still have something of interest to them to trade.
b) Popping tech from huts.
And both of the above can be leveraged further the more contacts we have.

Having said all that, my feeling is that there's still no substitute for a strong start in the core. Every early gain I make in core development will pay back by being a bit stronger later in the game. So there's a tradeoff here. My initial thinking is that I'll tradeoff at the level of sending out one additional scout and then focussing on core buildup for a while. But I'll be flexible in this thinking as events unfold. E.g. if I can get an additional scout by delaying my first settler just one turn then I'll be more tempted than if it costs me two turns.
 
This thread has really picked up! Great discussion. Not much to add now after SirPleb's wonderful description of the situation. I'd just encourage relative newbies to expand fast, take some risks, and yes it should definitely be possible to have a round city placement if we are effective in the beginning and set up a 4-turn settler factory or the like. My core will be at distance 4-4.5 from the capital, unless I find that there is more room than expected, in which case I will consider distance 5-5.5. Distance 3 is very unlikely, because you will not be able to build very many cities at that distance, and I doubt that an "outer" ring at say distance 6 or 7 will prove very productive or indeed be possible to build at all.

The 4-turn warrior/settler factory sounds yummy, but it will not be a high priority to me. I want to get to work on chariots as soon as possible, and I don't think a warrior every 4 turns will fit in with those plans. But the 4-turn settler factory is very important. And I will probably keep it running quite a while after I run out of room. Planning to go to war the moment I switch to Monarchy, I will hopefully have many Mounted Warriors (upgraded from chariots at a cost of only 20 gold) but I may still only be able to take half of one AI's territory. Then those extra settlers will be useful to fill in some gaps around the new conquests.

So I don't think I want to build barracks in the capital. The ideal would be if the settler factory was turned off the moment it is time to build a library in the capital, which would probably be around the time of Invention. But that is wishful thinking. Another thing that has to be worked out is what to build in the capital during the Golden Age (if I get one).

I'm pretty sure that one of my core towns will build the Forbidden Palace during that Golden Age. Let me explain why I think this is important: Let's say we defeat an AI civ after our first rush of Mounted Warriors, capture the capital and get a leader. It is very probable that we will not be able to completely destroy the civ that we defeated. That means that their culture would still be around. So what would you hurry in the capital you conquered? I wouldn't even dare to rush a culture bomb like Great Library. If you hurried the FP, you would have to live with a terrible flip-threat. That's why I would like to hurry a palace in this situation. And that's why the Forbidden Palace should be finished by then.

Now I've spilled my best beans. I'm pretty sure spilling the best beans is the right thing to do. Now I can move on to the things I could not predict. Good luck to everyone.
 
Megalou: If I understand you well, you plan build FP near core and then jump palace to a newly conquered location. But the cost of this approach seems too great to me: You disrupt your RCP and lose one leader (you will build a palace that is already built somewhere else). Would not it be better to spent the leader to build a wonder in your core and left the FP until later?
 
SirPleb said:
It is a risk to leave the capital undefended at any level. It is only a bit worse at deity, and that mainly due to the number of units the AIs have I think. It seems to me that the risk depends most on the map - the paths the AI units follow in exploring it and how soon they run out of land. I don't understand the factors governing the risks very well. I do know that:
1) If an AI military unit can reach an undefended rival town in one turn (one step for a warrior, two for a horseman) then the chances of it declaring war are much higher at that moment. The AI is aware of the opportunity that situation presents.
2) I tend to push the limit a bit harder than I should. I've been nailed a couple of times by AIs attacking when I was far from ready, once painfully losing my undefended capital.
It also depends on the aggressiveness setting of the AI tribe. Some tribes will attack any undefended town that they spot. They will continue the attack even if you bring in defenders after the spotted it. Others are more timid.
Usually you can see the AI marching straight to one of your towns, or in other cases they ignore your borders for many turns, so you know that it's coming.

I tend to be a bit more strict with the luxury slider. If leaving a warrior home makes a clear difference, I will do that and explore a little slower.
 
To add a bit of anecdotal support to SirPleb's argument --

I used to get the early attack on *chieftain*. It's happened to me a couple of times on warlord, too. But it's very rare for it to happen to me any more, even with 95% of my games at monarch or above -- and that despite me typically building fewer and weaker military units in the very early going. The only conclusion I can reach is that the AI must see sheer size (territory + population) as a deterrent also. When I do get the early rush, it's usually when I've been stuck in a bad start and can't expand effectively. We have a chance with the tiles at this start to match the AI's city numbers by 1000 BC or so if we have enough room -- that's not a chance I'm going to mess around with if I can help it. :)

Renata
 
horragoth said:
Megalou: If I understand you well, you plan build FP near core and then jump palace to a newly conquered location. But the cost of this approach seems too great to me: You disrupt your RCP and lose one leader (you will build a palace that is already built somewhere else). Would not it be better to spent the leader to build a wonder in your core and left the FP until later?
Depends on timing and victory condition. Will Great Library or Leo's be available? But one thing's for sure: a show of muscles is more important on deity than on lower levels. On lower levels a small military can slow you down, while on deity it can stop you from winning at all. I think I'd give priority to a second core over any wonder unless playing for 20K, which I won't do this time as a non-militaristic civ. If I can get a second core set up at the beginning of the Middle Ages there will be opportunities to build both libraries and more mounted units, both valuable assets in a bee-line for Military Tradition.
 
Megalou said:
Depends on timing and victory condition. Will Great Library or Leo's be available? But one thing's for sure: a show of muscles is more important on deity than on lower levels. On lower levels a small military can slow you down, while on deity it can stop you from winning at all. I think I'd give priority to a second core over any wonder unless playing for 20K, which I won't do this time as a non-militaristic civ. If I can get a second core set up at the beginning of the Middle Ages there will be opportunities to build both libraries and more mounted units, both valuable assets in a bee-line for Military Tradition.

Thanks for reply. It will be my first game above Emperor ever (not counting one Demigod C3C). I feel I should try a test Deity game before this GOTM, but then I would probably not be able to complete it in time (unless the end would be prompt and bitter).
 
Well, I'd like to play this game. Fingers crossed eh?
Me, well I think I will explore with the scout just in case there is a better start, but settling in place on deity is very often best IMVHO. I'll chop and irrigate the game, and then irrigate the cattle, and then I'll road the furs from what I can see. The forest chop will help the early granary.

Not sure I agree with some of the build orders being proposed. For me, I'm not sure that I would build an early worker. With an irrigated cattle and game I'm looking at +6 food? Which means I can work a forest forever with no improvement if I wish, or maybe even run a 3,3,4 food configuration to get units out too maybe. So I think that maybe a VERY early worker is not absolutely critical.

I am pretty sure that I will be running a minimum or even zero research policy and try for a chariot to horse mass upgrade. I just hope that the gold I save will not be extorted out of me. If I do decide to research then the Monarchy path seems best for the obvious reasons.

My builds will be scout, granary settler if I'm brave enough.
 
Nichelle said:
First, in reading through the posts so far, I have noticed that most people are planning to work the cow then immediately go to the fur or game. I'm curious why one wouldn't work the bg before the fur or game? :confused: Going to the cow first is kind of obvious ( even to me ;) ) but road/mine the bg and then going to fur or game would seem the way to go.....what exactly is the benefit of working the forests before the bg. I do understand the benefit of the shields that you get from chopping and the benefit of a lux hook up ( or am I wrong about that too.....), but getting the moo and bg and then crossing the river to the forests seems a bit more efficient?!?!??! Please help. :confused:

Please take my replies with a pinch of salt, since I'm not a great Civ player. But the idea of chopping first is to get the granary built soonest.

The idea being that with a grain, less food store is wasted when the city grows - so you can build settlers much quicker.

The differences are marginal... but many players work out each food, shield and gold and turn to the last digit. Personally I prefer a more "freeform" approach - which is why I'm less than good at the early game.

Nichelle said:
The second, of my silly questions, is I would think that building a few more scouts early ( 2-3 ) would be of greater value than a worker or a warrior. Not forgetting the grainery asap; but, when I have played around on deity it seems that early exploration and contact is a greater benefit than almost anything else ( this is a general statement not meaning forgetting settlers and growth being highly important ). The more contacts early both helps keeping up in the tech pace and seeing exactly how much space one has to grow initially before having to open a can of civ woop a**.

You are right... scouts are the way to go, and are one of the few advantages gained from an Expansionist Civ. Don't forget to check on happiness though - putting the luxury slider up on the F1 key can save the bother of building a very early warrior to keep people happy. Happy people for longest = higher scores, so happiness is very important.

A different way of looking at it - UNHAPPINESS is to be avoided, because it wastes a turn of building (and tax collection when only 1 city has been built).

Nichelle said:
I will add that some of the posts in this thead have been some of the most clear to me in how people develop the early game plan of moves and actions, and admit that there have been many previous posts I have read describing the counting of shields and food that have made my eyes cross in utter confusion :confused: :sad: :cry:.

I know just how you feel - but it's a bit like opening moves in chess. Going for a warrior build first, or what you do with the workers, or moving the settler - practise makes perfect.

Nichelle said:
Since I am just now really grasping the mircomanagement and forethought needed to become better in this game(or at least I hope so.... :mischief: ), I am hoping some of you might help me along with this.

My thanks to any who can clearify for me.

You are more than welcome and have a fun game. I only play the GOTM for fun - I'm not aiming to win awards or become a really good player, just have a good time.

The reason I like GOTMs is that they are play tested and thought out, unlike the computer generated games... which are sometimes unwinnable from the start!

EDIT: One good reason to build a couple of early warriors - anti-barbarian patrols. Once you have a few cities, a force of patrolling warriors suppresses the barbs and lets you keep the early gold mountain. Remember, once a civ reaches the Middle Ages the barb hordes are unleashed - so make sure you don't have a barb hut too close to your civ when the tech race is heating up.

Alternatively - if you can't stop a barb horde attacking, just spend the gold!
 
The starting position looks great! Probably (like many others) send my scout out two spaces to see what might be just in the fog, then settle in place. Irrigate Cattle, Road, then Chop Game.

Definitely build a 2nd Scout; after that, likely to build a 2nd Worker then Granary. I'll have to crunch it out whether it goes Worker/Granary/Settler/Warrior or Warrior/Granary/Settler/Warrrior.

Research plans: Wheel, as fast as possible (find them Horses! and Trade); then Mysticism, as fast as possible (more trade, hopefully), followed up by Minimum on Polytheism (save Money). Poly should allow lots of trading, get lots of Gold, form embassies and start the first round of wars (people adjacent to me vs people in the next ring.) Go for Monarchy after that as fast as possible, and start early GA in that Government. Hope to take advantage of the first round of warfare; take it from there.
 
I must admit, I never played Diety level with restless barbarians.
AIs activity was always scary enough to put barbarians to sedentary or worst case scenario to the roaming level.

I've just tried start ups in couple of test games today and WOW!!!
Restless Barbarian huts on Diety level appear extremely early and extremely close to the capital. It was such an unplesant experience.

I would love to follow Sir Plebs suggestion on keeping minimal military at the beginning, but with restless barbs I am sure i will want to have enough warriors to protect workers and cities...
And also barbs were major pain to my scouts. I built 3 scouts in one test game and lose 2 of them right away. :sad:

EDIT: Oh, and don't rely much on goody huts...
You are most likely to get a deserted hut than anything else. (That was i was getting in my test games anyways).
I remember hot discussions on goody huts in COTM6, but i tell ya what, this game is going to be worse. :) Imagine most players getting deserted huts and one lucky person pops a settler :mischief:
Somewhere on this website i saw a thread discussing goody huts with probabilities for each difficulty level.
 
dmanakho said:
and one lucky person pops a settler :mischief:

I do not think it will make a huge difference in this game because of extraordinary good start. Settlers will not be a problem, so there will be no such need in them as in COTM6.
I never played deity, but this one seems to be very attractive (the best start I ever saw), I will do everything what I can (except for abandoning COTM6) to play it this time.
 
The AI has lots of extra units on Deity level. When a hut is nearby they send a stack of units after it. If you see such a stack, you can follow them, and your scout should be pretty safe; plus you're likely to meet other civs as they rush over to clobber the barbs. Once the stack turns back, that means the barb hut is gone, so they head back for defense; the way should be clear then also (for now).
 
Well, my practice game lasted until the about 400ad before I was wiped off the face of the earth. I think my goal for this gotm will be to live until 500ad
 
I'm actually hoping to make it to the modern or at least late industrial age in Diety for the first time. With a recent random-game win on Emperor for the first time, and fairly comparative success in GOTM36(not finished yet, but hoping to pull out space-race) I should at least be able to survive to the point where space race and diplomatic victories are looking like the only viable type. (Has anyone ever managed to force a Histograph win on Diety? It would seem like either the AIs would force space race or diplo WELL before 1500 AD, let alone 2050. I guess if you had the AIs down to 2-3 cities each, kept at war with MI's fortified on every tile, and didn't build anything yourself, you could keep it going 'till 2050.)
 
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