GOTM 37: Pre-Game Discussion

[ainwood]

Just to confirm:
Standard world.
70% Ocean.
Normal Climate.
5 Billion years old.
Pangaea land form.
Cool temperature.
restless barbs.

 

[Roland Ehnström]

Well, there's no point in chopping the forest to build a worker or warrior.

No, by starting with irrigating the cow and then building a road there, the original Worker won't move to the Game and start chopping until after the Warrior (5 turns) and the second Worker (5 turns) is finished. The shields from the chop(s) will be used for a Granary, not a Worker or a Warrior.

We're not industrious, are we? Current GOTM it's taking me 6 turns to build a road, and it takes longer to do it over forest. As much as an early second worker would be helpful, it delays the first settler since you have to wait an extra 7 turns minimum(unless you do irrigate the cows, but at most that saves 4 turns).

As a non-industrious civ, building a road on grassland takes 4 turns. In forest, it takes 6 turns. Irrigation/mine in grassland takes 6 turns. And yes, I do intend to irrigate the cow. And since I intend to build a Granary before I build my first Settler, the extra Worker does not delay my first Settler at all, because he speeds up the Granary-build with a chop.

-- Roland

 

[Hannabir]

Just to confirm:
Standard world.
70% Ocean.
Normal Climate.
5 Billion years old.
Pangaea land form.
Cool temperature.
restless barbs.

Can we know how many rivals there are?

 

[Renata]

@ Roland --

I think some of your numbers are off. Road on grassland should take 3 turns, not four. Irrigation is four turns, not six.

Doesn't really change the math, though. It still takes
- 1 turn to move to cow
- 4 turns to irrigate
- 3 turns to road
- 1 turn to move to game
- 10 turns to chop forest
for a total of 19 turns before the shield influx. You could build four or five 10-shield units in that period of time if you wanted and still start on a settler or granary before any shields from the chop would be wasted.

Renata

 

[Roland Ehnström]

Yeah, you're right: Mining takes 6 turns, but irrigation takes 4. And road is only 3 turns indeed. But as you say, it doesn't make any practical difference in the scenario I described above.

-- Roland

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Not only Deity, but pangaea. Wow, Ainwood, you weren’t kidding when you said tough games were on the way!

These Iroquois aren’t quite as powerful as the C3C agricultural Iroquois, but I still like them. Same fabulous Unique Unit, only, with no Republic slingshot, it will take a bit longer to bring it into play. I don’t want a despotic Golden Age.

I think I will send my worker E to the cow first, in order to see what is beneath the fog in the five adjacent tiles. I doubt I will see anything that makes me want to move the settler, but I suppose a step SW is possible. Scout N, NE to the hill, or perhaps W, S if I suspect there is something hiding there that I want to uncover.

I like Roland’s early worker idea, and am thinking of building one before a granary also, although I will not know for sure until I push back a bit of the fog. A few BGs or another food bonus may change my mind. It is a high priority for me to get out a few scouts before starting my granary, so population will be higher than required for the factory (4) by the time the granary is done. And when including laying down roads and roading the fur, it looks like it will take over 50 worker turns to get a settler factory up and running, and that is a long time. If I do build a worker, I will build him after two scouts though. I look at the worker as essentially an investment of 20 food and 10 shields, but he will enable me to chop/irr the game 7 turns sooner, so that is a return of 14 food there alone. I think the second worker will pay for himself quickly.

I wonder if there will be huts nearby? My guess is that there will be, and a bit closer than they usually are. With that in mind, I will start with research on the Wheel at minimum, but if I spot a hut soon, I will switch research to Bronze Working and turn it off. This will ensure I don’t pop it from a hut, and hopefully I will pop a few more useful techs, like Alphabet and The Wheel.

I think I might try for an early/high scoring space victory in this game, as the research pace is sure to be insane.

 

[Renata]

@ Roland -- noticed you edited, so I'll just say ... of course I'm right. I am always right. *cough*

Renata

 

[Roland Ehnström]

Those numbers are for a non-industrious civ. Industrious would be 1.5 turns to road (rounded up to 2), 2 turns to irrigate, 3 to mine and 5 to chop forest. Despostism has no effect on worker speed (except vis-a-vis democracy, of course).

Yeah, got it now, I spoke too soon.

-- Roland

 

[Megalou]

Settling in place sorta wastes one forest tile that can be chopped early for extra shields towards a granary /.../ You're all so dazed by the start location that you haven't even started fog-gazing.

Pardon, but I think you're the one who is getting worked up about the starting location here. How are you supposed to fell all those trees around the starting position "early"? As for tantalizing super tiles in the fog - I'd say a cow on grassland is the best tile of all, (although fruitless comparisons with gold tiles might entertain somebody.)

 

[Hannabir]

.

Another option is to do no research at all. Also, this looks like a great location for an OCC game!

First off, building a worker first is a waste of either 2 or 5 turns of production. Working the cow gives +3 food per turn, meaning growth in 7, but at the same time, 2 spt, meaning the worker will finish 2 turns before the population to support it will be there.

Of course I do not mean to waste shields, that should go without saying.
The first worker will irrigate the cattle tile, so it's only 6 turns to size 2, ie 14 shields in total. So a Warrior can be built first and the new Worker will be finished on turn 8.
Next on the agenda will be cutting the game forest to increase the food surplus to 5 and the furs forest for easy shields. With 2 Workers on the job, the granary will be finished much faster, which will make up for the 5 turns invested in the second worker.
Starting with a settler before worker and granary is only an option if there is a second food-rich location nearby.

 

[ainwood]

Can we know how many rivals there are?

7. Standard number for a standard map.

 

[SirPleb]

Thinking about the first move, I've asked myself "what might motivate me to move the settler vs. settling where we start?"

I'd only move for an even more attractive start position. To be more attractive it would have to have cattle in its inner ring, be on a river, either retain the fur and game tiles or have other tiles equivalent to them, and have something in addition to all that which makes it better again.

The only candidates I can see which might meet all those conditions, and where that can be discovered in the start turn (if it can't be discovered I think it would be silly to move away on speculation!) are one step SE or one step SW.

One step SE could be a better start position if it exposes cattle (or something better, wheat on flood plains? ) to the E, SE, or S of that tile. I think (not positive) that to the E is forest and to the S is hills. That leaves just one chance of SE being a super start - cattle SE,SE of the home position. It would take a slightly wasteful scout move to determine whether SE is a super start - the scout would have to move into forest. A final consideration: a superstart at the SE position would imply the availabilty of a super two-city start with one of the two being at the start location anway. Even if there were cattle SE,SE of the start I'd likely decide to settle without moving. So I don't need to know.

One step SW could be a batter start position in more cases. It would already have cattle in its inner ring, so a bonus tile in any of five positions under the fog (from home: W,W; SW,SW,W; SW,SW,SW; SW,SW,S; S,S) could benefit that position. (Note: the corresponding tiles to the northeast which we can't see yet and would give up by moving SW are not as likely to have bonuses - we can see the hills in one and the other four appear to all be forest.)

At least one of the five tiles available to a SW start will be revealed by the worker if he begins by moving to the cattle. And if not moving the settler I believe that worker move is the best way to begin. So, I'm going to start by moving the worker to the cattle.

Next, unless something dramatic is revealed by the worker (I can't think of anything which could be dramatic enough, just hedging my bet with that "unless" statement) I'll move the scout W,S to to learn as much as I about a potential settler move SW.

And after that of course odds are that I'll decide to settle in place anyway

BTW, I think that all the forest tiles visible at the start are on grassland but I'm not positive. Can anyone tell for sure what they're on? For planning initial development it is especially important for the four forests in the inner ring of the start position.

 

[Sandman2003]

I will settle in place and produce at least one scout and an early worker. Builds after that will be governed by the terrain under the game and the fur, and I can't tell what type of terrain is under them with the snoopy terrain pack that Ainwood is using (I think).

After the chops:
1) If both are grassland, I will mine the game, just road the fur, and build granary first, then settler.

2) If game is grassland, fur is plains, I will irrigate game, mine furs, and build an early settler before the granary. This is because there will be a share food opportunity for the second city.

3) If game is plains and fur is grassland, then we irrigate game, and have the same situation as '1'.

4) If both plains, irrigate game, and I haven't decided yet what to do with the fur, probably mine. Granary would be first in this case as well.

Hopefully, I can work out what is under each tile when I see them in the standard graphics!

 

[Roland Ehnström]

BTW, I think that all the forest tiles visible at the start are on grassland but I'm not positive. Can anyone tell for sure what they're on? For planning initial development it is especially important for the four forests in the inner ring of the start position.

They are all Grassland (or BG of course). Plains-forests are BROWN in this tileset (see COTM05 pre-game discussion).

-- Roland

 

[Roland Ehnström]

After the chops:
1) If both are grassland, I will mine the game

I was thinking about this too, in terms of "what's the use of another food when you already have +5 fpt?". BUT there is something I have learned from reading about the top-scoring games in the spoiler-threads: Irrigating food-bouses ALWAYS pays off!

Think about it: We will surely build a second town in range of either the Cattle or the Game. So (as you say under "2") we will be able to SHARE food between these towns: Town #1 runs +6 food one turn, +4 the next. Town #2 runs +2 food the first turn and +4 the next. So in effect, the food from the irrigation of the Game is used by Town #2 to put it from +2 fpt to (on average) +3 fpt which I think you'll agree is worth more than an extra spt for Town #1. And if there is a second food-bonus in-range of Town #2, it get's even better: By sharing the irrigated Game (or the irrigated Cattle), you then have two cities running +6/+4 and +4/+6 fpt respectively. In other words: TWO settler factories!

-- Roland

 

[Sandman2003]

I was thinking about this too, in terms of "what's the use of another food when you already have +5 fpt?". BUT there is something I have learned from reading about the top-scoring games in the spoiler-threads: Irrigating food-bouses ALWAYS pays off!

The more I think about it, the more I am starting to agree with you, especially if there is at least one more BG. Then you could run a 4T warrior plus settler pump in the capital, and share the food at least once every four turns.

If two more BG, run a 4T size 4 and a half to 6 and a half warrior - settler pump, and share food twice.
eg turn 1 - size 4, 6 food in bin - use cow, 2 mined BG, and furs for 4f, 8s plus 2s on growth. City 2 can use the game.

turn 2 - size 5, use cow, game, 2 mined BG, furs for 6f, for 6f, 8s.

turn 3 - size 5, 6 food in bin, use cow, 3 mined BG, furs for 4f, 10s plus 2s on growth. City 2 can use game.

turn 4 - size 6, use cow, game, 3 mined BG, furs for 6f, 10s to complete settler.

If only one more BG, run a size 5-7 4T warrior plus settler pump, sharing food once.
turn 1 - size 5, use cow, game, 2 mined BG, furs, forest for 5f, 10s to produce warrior

turn 2 - size 5, 5 food in bin, use cow, game, 2 mined BG, furs, forest for 5f, 10s plus 2s on growth.

turn 3 - size 6, use cow, game, 2 mined BG, furs, grass for 6f, 8s

turn 4 - size 6, 6 food in bin, use cow, 2 mined BG, furs, 2 grass for 4f, 8s, plus 2s on growth to complte settler. City two can use the game.

 

[SirPleb]

Irrigating food-bouses ALWAYS pays off!

I think that's as close to an absolute rule as we have for Civ3!

I'm going to think a bit about opening sequences. My initial guess is that I'll want scout - worker - granary in the capital, with chop+irrigate of the game being the priority for both initial workers after irrigating the cattle.

 

[krisk]

Given the fact that the AIs will be expanding rapidly, should Ring City Placement still be a priority? Or is it a better idea to just grab as much space as possible, and to grab luxuries and resources in particular, and then worry about mitigating corruption later on?

I don't know if this is a silly question or not. This will be my first Diety-level game. (I was only just getting comfortable with Emperor level!) I've tried a few Diety-level practice starts with random maps, and I just feel really claustrophobic with the unbelievaby fast rate of AI expansion.

How many cities can I realistically expect to build before we run out of space?

Any general advice on playing Diety level (beyond the oft-heard `trade tech instead of researching it yourself') would be greatly appreciated, especially any differences from Emperor-level strategy.

Thanks.

 

[Roland Ehnström]

The more I think about it, the more I am starting to agree with you, especially if there is at least one more BG. Then you could run a 4T warrior plus settler pump in the capital, and share the food at least once every four turns.

Very clever!

Imagine, with two more BG's for the capital and another food-bonus for our second town, we could have a 4-turn Warrior-Settler factory in the capital AND a 4-turn settler factory (or a 2-turn Worker factory if we run out of shields or land to settle) in the second town...

-- Roland

 

[Roland Ehnström]

Given the fact that the AIs will be expanding rapidly, should Ring City Placement still be a priority? Or is it a better idea to just grab as much space as possible, and to grab luxuries and resources in particular, and then worry about mitigating corruption later on?

I don't know if this is a silly question or not. This will be my first Diety-level game. (I was only just getting comfortable with Emperor level!) I've tried a few Diety-level practice starts with random maps, and I just feel really claustrophobic with the unbelievaby fast rate of AI expansion.

How many cities can I realistically expect to build before we run out of space?

Any general advice on playing Diety level (beyond the oft-heard `trade tech instead of researching it yourself') would be greatly appreciated, especially any differences from Emperor-level strategy.

I would also like some answers to the above questions. C3C DemiGod is currently the level on which I feel that the AI can give me an even fight, but I have never won on Deity in C3C, and I can't remember ever even trying Deity in PTW.

-- Roland