GOTM 37 Second (and final) Spoiler.

[civ_steve]

Not sure at what level AI will give Techs for peace. I got free Techs until the mid-Medievel level; I tried several times to get Chemistry, and never got it from Persia. Had to settle for Ergili, which WAS critical at that point!

akots: the AI definitely gave you a harder time with respect to ROP's! (It must have remembered you from GOTM36 ) Part of the issue might be who was at war and at what time. India gave me a ROP while at war with France. France while at war with India and Persia. Persia while at war with France. Also, Rome was still in my game and had a Spearman right opposite me on the chokepoint so neither Persia nor Germany had a direct land path to attack me. And I went the opposite way around the continent, ending in France, so Persia had limited sea access to me as well; you captured France first and they seemed to want that Territory.

I saw Capitals defended by as much as 7 units or so; outlying cities no more than 2 or 3 usually. I tried to take advantage of AI wars - following in after they'd been at war for several turns.

Another oddity: several people have mentioned Settlers in boats which have prolonged the existence of some of the civs. That didn't happen to me, and I can't recall it ever happening! Could there be a setting somewhere that effects that, or is it a fairly rare occurance. I'm using PTW 1.27 as downloaded from the Conquests disk.

 

[Dianthus]

Another oddity: several people have mentioned Settlers in boats which have prolonged the existence of some of the civs. That didn't happen to me, and I can't recall it ever happening! Could there be a setting somewhere that effects that, or is it a fairly rare occurance. I'm using PTW 1.27 as downloaded from the Conquests disk.

I think that is due to whether "Respawn AI Players" is on or not. ainwood sometimes has this on, sometimes off. I guess you were just lucky this game!

 

[grahamiam]

Another oddity: several people have mentioned Settlers in boats which have prolonged the existence of some of the civs. That didn't happen to me, and I can't recall it ever happening! Could there be a setting somewhere that effects that, or is it a fairly rare occurance. I'm using PTW 1.27 as downloaded from the Conquests disk.

arabs did that in my game. however, they didn't look for land, instead, thier caravel sat off thier shoreline, close enough for me to bombard it with a cannon and then kill it with a rushed privateer i guess it didn't want to move without an escort.

 

[civ_steve]

I just mention it because I saw France had a Galley and Persia a Caravel sailing around the formerly Carthage/Arab coast. I half expected to find out there was a Settler on those boats, but both times taking their last city wiped them out. I guess I was lucky!

 

[akots]

Regarding settler in a boat, it looks like AI puts a settler in galley "just in case". When more map is revealed and it becomes clear that there is no place to settle, the settler is usually put ashore somwhere in a capital or another major city. There were a few opening spots to settle earlier in the game, France dispatched a galley with settler in it there (probably took 20 or more turns to sail to northern shores of Arabia). While the galley sailed, the spot has been settled by another civ, so the galley started to move back. And never made it in time because France has been destroyed. The "settler in galley" is rather common in case of early military conquests on higher difficulty levels (Empleror+) with Pangea/large continents maps. Flip chances have been greatly educed and I had no flips to France though MapStat showed probabilities around 0.4-0.8%. Apparently, flips are still possible, it is assumed that the AI capital is at indefinitely high distance. That is why the probability is lower.

Another thing, regarding number of AI defenders. I have attacked Arabs right after their war with Carthage finished. And they had 10-12 defenders in the border cities. One of them was size 11 and iirc, I have attacked it with 18 MWs and 4 or 5 knights and could not take on the very first turn. The problem with Persia was that they knew I was coming to their core and they had saltpeter. So, they just rushed or built a musketman in every core city every turn or two. Some smaller Persian cities built occasional cavalries. Also, they were set to build artillery units apparently by Ainwood, so each city also has 2 catapults.

Regarding RoP: I was able to get RoP with everyone. The problem was to use it. And I was in constant war either with Germany or Persia who were very powerful. Actually, Persia at one time point allied French settler in the boat against me paying some lump sum of 500g or so to France. No big trouble except that one or two former French cities rioted. But after 6 turns, I made peace with France, getting myself Persian gold for it from Joanne.

Interestingly, Persia never came attacking to the choke. They were busy fighting Rome. They came only after Rome was eliminated. So, I signed peace and RoP and traded something with them. Alas, it did not help, they declared in a few turns. Germany early in the game just happened to buy India and Arabia into war with me. It was indeed a very short time frame. I think, Indian war lasted no longer than 6 turns and Carthaginian was even shorter, may be 4 or 5 turns maximum. If there is a window to wait, it is quite possible it could have turned normally, i.e., I would be able to RoP abuse them. But time was critical here. Apparently, I should have stayed at peace with Germany and Persia but I had alliance against one of them with poor Romans as well as considerable war happiness which allowed to run zero luxury rate and gave money for upgrades.

Besides, I'm not a big RoP abuse fan, you know. I'm not feeling myself like accomplishing something great while using it. But on higher levels (+Emperor), it is a very valuable strategy for GOTM which is cutting down many turns especially in case of huge culture of the AI and poorly passable terrain like jungles, forests and mountains.

 

[Lance]

Well, this was my second GOTM in a row that I had to lose by my own actions in order to submit in time. In the previous one I kept a vote I knew I would lose (and got my first "award", the green ambulance), and this time, since I had no such possiblity, I just abandoned my cities, and lost by conquest.

I think I managed ok until that, even though this was my first game on deity (as was the previous one my first on emperor). After I captured the GL in Paris, I was just about to enter the industrial ages, and would propably have tried to go for diplomatic win. Anyway, there was not enogh time this month. Hopefully I will have more in the future.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Besides, I'm not a big RoP abuse fan, you know. I'm not feeling myself like accomplishing something great while using it. But on higher levels (+Emperor), it is a very valuable strategy for GOTM which is cutting down many turns especially in case of huge culture of the AI and poorly passable terrain like jungles, forests and mountains.

I have not yet used ROP abuse, in GOTM or otherwise. I used to think it would only save a few turns, but lately I am thinking it can save much more than that when used extremely effectively. It is hard for me to tell for sure though, because I don't know how quickly someone could have run over the AI without the abuse. If going for domination and playing on emperor level, how many turns do you think well-exectued ROP abuse can shave off a single war and off the final victory date? (I know these are subjective questions that depend on many other factors; I'm just looking for your experience-based estimate.)

 

[grahamiam]

Besides, I'm not a big RoP abuse fan, you know. I'm not feeling myself like accomplishing something great while using it.

i 100% agree with this (as i stated in my logs). i think if i did this as often as dynamic claims or played a game like wacken's, then i'd stop playing civ as all strategy seems to be lost. i fully enjoy taking 8 cities in a turn, but only thru clever planning and execution, not lining up 110 knights or 50 cavalry next to all you enemy's cities and then pressing the GO button.

i can still remember the french gotm (forget the #), taking 7 or 8 german cities without RoP rape. I DoW'd, then landed the first group. defended against 4 or 5 swords and MDI's on the IBT, then took 4 cities, 1 being a port. Used the port to offload another large group of units and took 3 or 4 more cities, extending myself as much as I could. What a thrill! That was very satisfying and I've bettered that several times now, but the lesson learned from the french game is the foundation for those better results The RoP rape i did in this game against Rome I will quickly forget as it had no significant learning value to it and was very boring.

no offense intended towards dynamic and wackenopenair. you are both far superior in ability as compared to me. this is only how i feel about this particular tactic

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Wacken also used some pretty amazing "AI goading." A bit more difficult to set up than ROP abuse, but certainly just as effective when well executed!

 

[grahamiam]

Wacken also used some pretty amazing "AI goading." A bit more difficult to set up than ROP abuse, but certainly just as effective when well executed!

i was only commenting on the RoP rape tactic. other things (like getting 110 knights by that early in the game) clearly show he is an impressive player

 

[DJMGator13]

Apparently, flips are still possible, it is assumed that the AI capital is at indefinitely high distance.

I can confirm this, because it happened to me twice in my game, where one of my captured Indian cities flipped back to the lone settler in a boat.

 

[Dianthus]

I can confirm this, because it happened to me twice in my game, where one of my captured Indian cities flipped back to the lone settler in a boat.

Wow, that's unluck Gator. Thanks for posting though, I was starting to wonder if that might be a bug in CRpMapStat ...

 

[akots]

... If going for domination and playing on emperor level, how many turns do you think well-exectued ROP abuse can shave off a single war and off the final victory date? ...

Well, I don't use it much either. In this game, it took me about 20 turns to chop to domination limit through Persia with about 80 knights. Rough estimate including possible traffic jams on roads there for RoP abuse will be about 8 turns, may be 9 which shaves off as much as 10 turns and allows to pillage saltpeter and may be even iron. I also had troops in position in Arab territory (about 20 knights/15MWs) to assault Baghdad and Mecca when Arabs declared war. Despite very rough terrain and lots of musketmen, Arabs were able to survive only 6 or 7 turns since it was possible to pillage a road connecting their saltpeter city to other cities. This shaved off at least 5 or 6 turns. So, in this game, total benefit could have been huge, may be up to 30 turns or so at least. And it is usually possible to use it multiple times in a game even after the AI knows you are not trustworthy. Just need to renegotiate peace and be large enough so that they are tempted.

It might be especially useful when using slow units, like macemen. They are less expensive compared to knights and don't retreat if losing but are good enough against spearmen. Send the knights to more distant cities and macemen to the border cities.

 

[Denniz]

...but they don't want to trade a single tech. Why?...

I am not totally sure, but I was able to get techs under similar circumstances, but only by putting up a lot of gold. Even when negotiating for peace, the best I could do was get a discount. Techs were costing me around 2000+g in the MA, 3000+g in the IA, and then they got expensive. Most of the time this was with 4 civs knowing the tech.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I don't think ROP abuse is as strong as some people make it out for. I don't use it very extensively either actually. In this game i only effectively used it on Arabia and Germany. I have had other ROP's, but those were not used effectively in ROP rape. In the earlier wars i simply didn't have enough units to use the rape effectively.

To make it effective, it also is important the AI has many roads to use for you.

Culture flips are a good reason to use ROP rape, but i am actually not that worried about culture flips when the AI only gets 1 spearman to defend anyway. The bulk of the army can proceed conquest while a small number of units stay behind to retake flipped cities. Since units have to stay behind for healing anyway, there are usually some healing units around for that job (against a spear, a knight doesn't need to be at full health)

ROP rape also has a drawback.
If you conquer normally, you start fighting at turn1, the units damaged in the first battle will be healed in turn 4 and ready for their next battle. If you ROP rape, all your units attack much later and you effectively wasted some time potentially used for healing.

Against Germany, the most important reason for ROP this game was the great wall being build in their most remote city.

Another advantage from ROP rape was that i could investigate all cities before doing the grand final attack. However, this advantage is equaled out by the fact that in normal warfare, you don't need to seperate your troops so much and thus have bigger attacking stacks anyway.

All together, IMO, the benefit of the ROP rape is limited to the movement advantage you get from the AI's roads.

I think it saved me 6-8 turns this game.

The following factors i think are more important for my early finish date than ROP rape: (in rough order of importance)

-QSC worker count and micro managing early food.
-Mircomanaging and short rushing cities to produce Mounteds in 2 turns.
-Aquiring tech from AI at no cost. (compared to regular trading)
-upgrading knights from MW. (would be #1 if horses instead of MW)
-General strategy. (order of conquest, peace and war policy, defence point against persia)

If anything is abusive in the game and possibly should be banned, i think it is the AI accepting GPT in peace nagotiations no matter what your reputation.

 

[shortguy]

Wasn't able to finish this one. I may finish it later.

I don't know whether it's winnable. I have about 70 artillery, 30 tanks, and 40 mechs. I'm at war with France, and I'm allied with the other two countries. Unfortunately, I don't have oil or aluminum, so I have to make very expensive trades to get the necessary materials. I though about capturing the UN in Paris and holding a vote (hard, but doable), but, with 4 civs left, there will almost certainly be 3 civs in the vote. I've fallen to far back tech-wise for space race (computers is my only modern age tech, and arabia has modern armors). Also, in order to get computers, oil, and enough money to upgrade my infs to mechs, I nearly bankrupted myself. I have to have most of my productive cities on wealth just to stay afloat. Fortunately, France doesn't have enough of a force to pose a significant threat (though War Weariness is going to be a problem soon).

I've done ok so far, but I don't think there's anywhere good to go from here. Any suggestions?

 

[AlanH]

War Weariness is easily dealt with in this game, as you are religious, so a revolt to Monarchy will cost you one turn. I did that in the closing stages of my conquest, when war weariness cut in. My units were in enemy territory all the time, and every unit, healed or wounded, was thrown at the defences on the basis that you don't get points for having units left at the end of the game .

With all that weaponry you should be able to make mince meat of France. Do they have the resources you need? If so you can get your economy going again by getting your own supplies. If you capture the UN then with your alliances you stand a chance of winning a diplo victory. You don't have cash for bribes, but how about giving your allies some French cities just before the vote?

 

[Sabre]

I second AlanH's suggestion. Diplomatic seems to be your best shot and with the UN in France it's very doable. Find out who the top nation is, buy alliances with the rest (an alliance with the civ you'll be against in the UN vote would be a waste) and the turn you capture the UN give away the French cities along with any extra stuff you have (luxes and resources, gpt - whatever.) You'll have a pretty good shot at a win.

 

[AlanH]

Check out the Strategy Article on AI Attitude. (Bamspeedy?). It tells you what to do to maximise the AI positive attitude to you, for example, I don't believe it's worth bribing them with more than 100 gold-worth of assets, so a single city is probably all you need to offer each of them.

 

[shortguy]

The problem with Diplo is that, with only 4 civs left (and France sure to be practically gone by the time that I would get the UN), the other 3 nations would certainly have the requisite population/land area to be in the vote. Everyone would vote for himself, and I wouldn't get the majority. I'm by far the smallest civ; in fact, I would say that, if France held a vote now, I would be the only one not in the vote.