la fayette
King
SUPREME ELLIE
I salute you
I salute you
GOTM 37 Spoiler
- Thread starter Old n Slow
- Start date
A+ombomb
Actuary
Has anyone ever dabbled with teching straight to trade even before the monarchy? It seems like this one might have good potential for such a venture, with the ease of trade routes available. A very early demanded trade route (max of 2 0 X) could have extreme ramifications to the ending date....
I tried that in a couple games. Getting camels early helps a bit in wonder-building, but the trade routes are small because your cities are small and you dont have much extra trade from trade specials. Far better to take the shortest route to Monarchy, then pursue Trade right afterwards (sometimes a single divert for Writing or Mapmaking if the map is unusual).
Suprised you would think this particular GOTM would be good for early trade: getting overseas without Lighthouse is pretty hard. I had to divert to get Colossus after Marco Polo, then found it easier to just go for Navigation.
Suprised you would think this particular GOTM would be good for early trade: getting overseas without Lighthouse is pretty hard. I had to divert to get Colossus after Marco Polo, then found it easier to just go for Navigation.
Old n Slow
Emperor
I'm finding that with the plan to pick up Marco's early on, I'll avoid going for Map Making as a researched tech -- usually one of the ai's will have it (same thought for Masonry). Also circa that time I'm fighting for Colossus as an early wonder (and maybe HG), so Marco's may be my second wonder (or even third as there is less pressure from the ai's.)
As such, I'll pick up a bunch of techs in the great trading round, and then have to decide whether to shoot for Astro, Nav, Engineering or Republic as the next short term research focus -- I'm now researching Nav before Invention as a general rule of thumb and thus postponing Inv due to the drop off trade gains as well as the ending of techs from huts.
As such, I'll pick up a bunch of techs in the great trading round, and then have to decide whether to shoot for Astro, Nav, Engineering or Republic as the next short term research focus -- I'm now researching Nav before Invention as a general rule of thumb and thus postponing Inv due to the drop off trade gains as well as the ending of techs from huts.
Good points. I shoot for Marco first right after Trade, but I don't take everything they've got right away. I usually just want Maps and Myst from them. I don't want to get too far ahead early on - alliances are hard to get when you are ahead. One trick I've found useful for the early Wonder races is to give away Literacy and Republic to everyone: most AIs will switch their Wonder to GL as soon as they get Lit, and Republic makes them less militant, better trading partners and slower producers. I usually give away CerBur, Curr and Myst at the same time so they can grow their cities larger for better delivery bonuses. Needless to say, I play Classic, not MGE...
After getting Marco I try to use the AI as "tech slaves", giving them what they are working on if I have it so they can switch to something else. One thing to beware of is setting up a switch when they have both Lit and Myst: they may switch to Philosophy and have enough stored beakers to finish before you!
I had been delaying Astronomy, but lately I've moved it up in my priority list. I try to make sure I'll be able to build Copes shortly after getting it, so it does cramp getting Colossus or Shakes/Mikes, but the earlier boost to SSC helps a lot and it is a necessary step toward better ships with Nav.
After getting Marco I try to use the AI as "tech slaves", giving them what they are working on if I have it so they can switch to something else. One thing to beware of is setting up a switch when they have both Lit and Myst: they may switch to Philosophy and have enough stored beakers to finish before you!
I had been delaying Astronomy, but lately I've moved it up in my priority list. I try to make sure I'll be able to build Copes shortly after getting it, so it does cramp getting Colossus or Shakes/Mikes, but the earlier boost to SSC helps a lot and it is a necessary step toward better ships with Nav.
A+ombomb
Actuary
Ya, I meant with a fast lighthouse of course. Navigation fast instead of lighthouse is an extreme flaw, because once you hit navigation or invention (whichever comes first) your trade routes will be HALVED! The only plus side is that the trade routes also have a higher cap. The max trade route before you have 20 advances is only 200 anyway, and I found I could easily accomplish this so long as its a demanded quantity. The easiest way to know what is demanded ahead of time is to pick things that are almost always normally demanded somewhere : silk, hides, beads, copper, wool, salt(very early) are big ones. As far as gaining extra advances from marco's goes, I think in a heavy trading game its wisest to trade for as many advances as you can in the early going- even seemingly worthless advances. Though having worthless advances slows tech, it is likely that nearly all your tech will be coming from trade routes rather than city beakers - and trade routes increase by roughly 5%(not sure on this?) every extra advance beyond 20 (when it breaks free from 2 0 X trade. The boost in knowledge from routes wouldn't be enough to offset the advance increase, but you also gain the $$ increase, allowing further caravans to be bought, and ultimately most all advances will be needed long term anyway (assuming you are planning on space flight). Now that I have a version of the game that can rehome caravans, I am finding that this abuse of the game should clearly be banned. By rehoming the caravans, you can provide limitless caravans of all your commodities, provided you create routes fast enough to keep up with your building. This can create quite a snowball effect, as you can easily afford to buy many more caravans with the money you can generate from a few big rehomed routes.
I think I do agree that going monarchy still should be better, though, but I am still not sure.. its only 2 extra advances off from trade after all.
I think I do agree that going monarchy still should be better, though, but I am still not sure.. its only 2 extra advances off from trade after all.
I gather by "trade routes" you really mean "delivery bonuses". The Nav/Inv trigger does not decrease the city to city trade routes but does do away with the doubling of delivery bonuses (not halving; see Samson's Delivery Bonus Calculation thread in the GL at Apolyton.Net). The increase in delivery bonus cap you noticed at 20 techs has two sides to it: your "cap" is increased, but your research cost is greatly inflated at the same time. I usually see a jump from around 300 beakers to around 500 beakers for tech #20 (depending on map size). So rather than saying "its wisest to trade for as many advances as you can in the early going- even seemingly worthless advances", I would argue that the first 19 techs you get ought to be as carefully selected as possible in order to get what you need to build your civ into a major trading empire. For that reason I try to avoid the "worthless" techs before #20, unless I cannot avoid a hut or trade without knowing what I might get (hence the value of Marcos). Once my cities are producing significant beakers from SSC and numerous trade routes I will gather in the extra techs I did not need at first.
As to Nav versus Lighthouse, I only had One City so I had to prioritize my Wonder building. Yes, the delivery bonus dropped with Nav, but on the other hand I could send three rather than two caravans overseas at the same time. I think it was worth it.
Your list of "things that are almost always normally demanded somewhere" suprised me: Silk and Hides I would agree with, probably Copper as well, but Beads, Wool and Salt I find much harder to find decent demanding AI cities for. The one you left off is Dye, which due to the Dye/Copper demand bug is usually demanded just about everywhere but not as available as you would wish. The extra supply of Salt is due to getting Pottery tech, but unfortunately does not lead to extra demand.
Agreed about rehoming caravans. You can do it in CFC GOTM, but it makes the game seem too easy. Several players here just don't do it anyway. Once your SSC with Colossus is ramped up rehoming to it is like a free money/beaker machine.
The "only 2 extra advances" between Monarchy and Trade are fairly significant if Trade comes first, because the next two tech are something like 70 and 90 beakers each. Still being in Despotism you are not getting the extra trade from trade specials (A Silk or Whale only gives 2 trade, rather than 3), so your caravans will not pay off as much nor will your trade routes be significant. Plus you won't have Map yet to get overseas so you'll most likely be stuck with home-continent, domestic deliveries which are halved. Much better to get Monarchy first for the extra trade, then Trade, then Mapmaking for ships to deliver overseas. Don't take my word for it, though; try it yourself.
As to Nav versus Lighthouse, I only had One City so I had to prioritize my Wonder building. Yes, the delivery bonus dropped with Nav, but on the other hand I could send three rather than two caravans overseas at the same time. I think it was worth it.
Your list of "things that are almost always normally demanded somewhere" suprised me: Silk and Hides I would agree with, probably Copper as well, but Beads, Wool and Salt I find much harder to find decent demanding AI cities for. The one you left off is Dye, which due to the Dye/Copper demand bug is usually demanded just about everywhere but not as available as you would wish. The extra supply of Salt is due to getting Pottery tech, but unfortunately does not lead to extra demand.
Agreed about rehoming caravans. You can do it in CFC GOTM, but it makes the game seem too easy. Several players here just don't do it anyway. Once your SSC with Colossus is ramped up rehoming to it is like a free money/beaker machine.
The "only 2 extra advances" between Monarchy and Trade are fairly significant if Trade comes first, because the next two tech are something like 70 and 90 beakers each. Still being in Despotism you are not getting the extra trade from trade specials (A Silk or Whale only gives 2 trade, rather than 3), so your caravans will not pay off as much nor will your trade routes be significant. Plus you won't have Map yet to get overseas so you'll most likely be stuck with home-continent, domestic deliveries which are halved. Much better to get Monarchy first for the extra trade, then Trade, then Mapmaking for ships to deliver overseas. Don't take my word for it, though; try it yourself.
on a large map i think you under estimate the value of huts. my first tech is horseback riding.then monarchy followed by seafaring then trade.if you are finding ahut or more a turn it will easily make up for a slower science rate.also you should build marco polo first and trade for every knowledge you can. this increases they chance of finding a more advanced knowledge in a hut. plus your best defence early is finding the ais and knowing how many turns it would take them to attack you.you can get by with less military when you can guage the threat accurately .unlike our president
A+ombomb
Actuary
Maybe we have different versions of the game, because on mine pretty much every city supplies dye while I think I have only seen 1 city once EVER demand it! As for claiming mass tech, I meant this more for like 30+ advances...obviously in the early going you want to avoid unneeded advances like the plague, so you can hit key techs like monotheism/trade/monarchy/republic (sometimes)/construction. After you have those key techs, though, the lengthened tech rates seem outweighed by the larger trade route "hits".
Old n Slow
Emperor
I think that there are three early goals -- improved gov (Mon or Rep), Trade, & Phil. Ive noticed that trying to grab other techs sooner sometimes puts Phil at risk, so I now include that in the early bundle.
If the sole goal were Trade, yes it can be obtained as early as tech #5; but if the goal was effective trade (trade with improved gov) trade with Mono first can be obtained as tech #8 (same with Rep first, trade second = tech #8). Putting Phil into the mix allows all three goals by tech #11 -- with different mixes -- having Phil at tech #10 allows trade to be the free tech at tech #11 -- one of my usual research plans.
In fact Alpha-Code-Write-Bronze-Lit-Rep-Curr-C B-Myst-Phil-Trade or Alpha-Code-Bronze-C B-Mon-Write-Myst-Lit-Curr-Phil-Trade both offer no off path techs for meeting the three goals. The downside is of course, reduced incentive to go out and pop huts -- not only with an off path tech lead to a greater number of beakers, but it is highly likely to cause the need for a second off path tech before meeting the third goal. Yes, one can get Trade before Phil (thus getting a free tech after Phil), but getting Phil first implies effectively getting Trade as of tech #10.
Elephant, I havent kept definitive data on AI wonder preferences, but it seems that the 200 shield wonders go first -- I see Pyramids usually attempted before Great Wall for instance. It might be a good research test for those so inclined.
If the sole goal were Trade, yes it can be obtained as early as tech #5; but if the goal was effective trade (trade with improved gov) trade with Mono first can be obtained as tech #8 (same with Rep first, trade second = tech #8). Putting Phil into the mix allows all three goals by tech #11 -- with different mixes -- having Phil at tech #10 allows trade to be the free tech at tech #11 -- one of my usual research plans.
In fact Alpha-Code-Write-Bronze-Lit-Rep-Curr-C B-Myst-Phil-Trade or Alpha-Code-Bronze-C B-Mon-Write-Myst-Lit-Curr-Phil-Trade both offer no off path techs for meeting the three goals. The downside is of course, reduced incentive to go out and pop huts -- not only with an off path tech lead to a greater number of beakers, but it is highly likely to cause the need for a second off path tech before meeting the third goal. Yes, one can get Trade before Phil (thus getting a free tech after Phil), but getting Phil first implies effectively getting Trade as of tech #10.
Elephant, I havent kept definitive data on AI wonder preferences, but it seems that the 200 shield wonders go first -- I see Pyramids usually attempted before Great Wall for instance. It might be a good research test for those so inclined.
A+ombomb
Actuary
I don't have gold edition, that is probably why. As for philosophy before trade, I don't know about that. I find that even in a despotism I can hit for the max trade routes for early trading (200), which provides enough gold that you could use that gold towards buying new caravans for wonders, or just using the 200 gold towards 50 shields on the wonder and gaining a free beaker set.
Old n Slow: The AI is definitely Pyramids first, then often HG. My point was a way to lessen the pressure for the second and third ones: I like to go MarcoPolo, then Colossus or HangGdns (if "blessed" with Pottery), then Mikes/Shakes/Copes, depending on the situation. In my last GOTM HG, LH, KRC and Oracle were all unbuilt as I started my spaceship, mostly because I kept gifting them something better and they switched.
The current EL#8 (no huts) I am trying out this tech path:
-(1)Bronze: the first is a quickie, this helps for PRBing 2nd row;
-(2)Alph: sets up all the "wisdom" techs;
-(3)CerBur: allows Temples, but mostly cause CodeLaw hidden;
-(4)CodeLaw: last before:
-(5)MONARCHY: govmt change, higher Sci, less C&W, more cities;
-(6)Write: PRB 3rd row, start building Dips to explore and Library in SSC;
-(7)Curr: start Marketplaces, sets up:
-(8)TRADE: for MarcoPolo AND caravans
-(9)Map: get ships in the water and trade maps (sometimes get this as first tech from MarcoPolo, allowing switch);
-(10)Myst: 2nd citizen content, Oracle (?) and prep for Philos;
-(11)Lit: great to trade to AIs;
-(12)REP: hopefully ready to WLTCD; otherwise Mas for Cst or Pot for HG;
-(13)PHIL+(or 14th if I don't have something else to change the following choices, Bank/Horse).
Usually between #9 and #11 I have MarcoPolo done and can start swapping for what I want next. Then I ramp the tech down and build Temples, Marketplaces and trade routes to help WLTCD.
Perhaps I should start a thread on this in the Strategy&Tips forum...
The current EL#8 (no huts) I am trying out this tech path:
-(1)Bronze: the first is a quickie, this helps for PRBing 2nd row;
-(2)Alph: sets up all the "wisdom" techs;
-(3)CerBur: allows Temples, but mostly cause CodeLaw hidden;
-(4)CodeLaw: last before:
-(5)MONARCHY: govmt change, higher Sci, less C&W, more cities;
-(6)Write: PRB 3rd row, start building Dips to explore and Library in SSC;
-(7)Curr: start Marketplaces, sets up:
-(8)TRADE: for MarcoPolo AND caravans
-(9)Map: get ships in the water and trade maps (sometimes get this as first tech from MarcoPolo, allowing switch);
-(10)Myst: 2nd citizen content, Oracle (?) and prep for Philos;
-(11)Lit: great to trade to AIs;
-(12)REP: hopefully ready to WLTCD; otherwise Mas for Cst or Pot for HG;
-(13)PHIL+(or 14th if I don't have something else to change the following choices, Bank/Horse).
Usually between #9 and #11 I have MarcoPolo done and can start swapping for what I want next. Then I ramp the tech down and build Temples, Marketplaces and trade routes to help WLTCD.
Perhaps I should start a thread on this in the Strategy&Tips forum...
OnS - please put this in the Strategy Forum! Eventually, I think the various opening Tech choice strategies might be catalogued, as are chess openings, to highlight the advantages and disadvantages of each one, expecially as regards Multiplayer.
The only surprise on your list for me was Mysticism making the 2nd citizen content. Is that a result of its doubling the output of Temples or an additional feature of Mysticism?
The only surprise on your list for me was Mysticism making the 2nd citizen content. Is that a result of its doubling the output of Temples or an additional feature of Mysticism?
A+ombomb
Actuary
Does anyone have any info about space flight affecting demands to evacuate territory? I found once I had spaceflight, every nation would immediately declare war on me whenever I demanded them to leave my territory. This was actually quite convenient for me since I was in a democracy and I was having a hard time declaring war even with the UN, and every other nation was still in the stone age defending with pikemen, hehe.
Space Flight does seem to effect the AI attitudes negatively, particularly if you are playing MGE. Smaller "issues" will set them off more easily.
For those interested in the preceding discussion of Tech Plans, I have started a discussion thread called "Beginning Tech Plans" in the Strategy & Tips forum.
For those interested in the preceding discussion of Tech Plans, I have started a discussion thread called "Beginning Tech Plans" in the Strategy & Tips forum.
Old n Slow
Emperor
Myst doubles the effect of Temples. It is also required for Phil.
Joe_Chompa
Chieftain
hmmmm.....i have read all your comments...i will offer another angle to you...
no huts, no trees, no land resources, on an isolated island. I decided my priority at first was to build up cities. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16. I figured i would be building into the 4th round which would take me awhile, so my choice of techpath is not desparate. I choose to follow to Monarchy, grab warrior code so i can get feudalism. From feud, i grab mapmaking, then writing, masonry, and mathematics to make 10 techs. From that point i can build dips, pikies, catapults and triremes. So, i build a trireme out of every city i have available, for about 10 triremes. For my 11th tech, i research chivalry. If things went well(that dang archer doesn't appear and kill off an early city) my second city(samarkand) built 2 settlers and proceeded to build LH. Karakorum(capital city) built either 4 or 5 settlers and then proceeded to build SunTzu's.
If building Sun Tzu's doesn't make sense at the moment, then building barracks in 4-5 cities will be required instead.
From those first 11 techs, plus the two wonders, i have my basic war machine. Each trireme is outfitted with a vet catapult and a vet knight. I find it more effective to take over other civs as opposed to building up to the other civs. Each trireme has run o' the water with LH so off in every direction go the triremes. When they find a target(usually defended by phalanxes) they take the city. The Japs were my first target. Remember, each city you take over gains the attributes of Sun Tzu's
. As is the snowball effect with trade caravans, the same snowball effect can occur with military units.
My 1000ad save shows Suntzu's and LH built, 19 cities, 9 triremes ready to be loaded, 1 1/2 wonders built(for when i get the appropriate tech) and many catapults on the way.
This game i am playing is presently in 1867, and i am in the process of assimilating the last two civs. Should be done by 1900. Nice map!!
A few notes of interest:
-this game admittedly isn't my first attempt, but in my first attempt, i ran a trireme up the edge of the map and made it to the land to the north
-long before i built LH, a Japanese trireme appeared on my island's coastline
-while rapidly taking over oppsing cities, i found that the ai could buils units abnormally fast, research tech abnormally fast and seems to have A LOT of gold to hand out (550 for my peaceful nature in one instance), not that i am complaining....
-silk caravan from my capital to german capital netted 480 gold!!!
tech path:alpha, code, cere, monarchy, warrior, feud, map, writ, masonry, math, chiv, lit, rep, curr, trade
no huts, no trees, no land resources, on an isolated island. I decided my priority at first was to build up cities. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16. I figured i would be building into the 4th round which would take me awhile, so my choice of techpath is not desparate. I choose to follow to Monarchy, grab warrior code so i can get feudalism. From feud, i grab mapmaking, then writing, masonry, and mathematics to make 10 techs. From that point i can build dips, pikies, catapults and triremes. So, i build a trireme out of every city i have available, for about 10 triremes. For my 11th tech, i research chivalry. If things went well(that dang archer doesn't appear and kill off an early city) my second city(samarkand) built 2 settlers and proceeded to build LH. Karakorum(capital city) built either 4 or 5 settlers and then proceeded to build SunTzu's.
If building Sun Tzu's doesn't make sense at the moment, then building barracks in 4-5 cities will be required instead.
From those first 11 techs, plus the two wonders, i have my basic war machine. Each trireme is outfitted with a vet catapult and a vet knight. I find it more effective to take over other civs as opposed to building up to the other civs. Each trireme has run o' the water with LH so off in every direction go the triremes. When they find a target(usually defended by phalanxes) they take the city. The Japs were my first target. Remember, each city you take over gains the attributes of Sun Tzu's
. As is the snowball effect with trade caravans, the same snowball effect can occur with military units.My 1000ad save shows Suntzu's and LH built, 19 cities, 9 triremes ready to be loaded, 1 1/2 wonders built(for when i get the appropriate tech) and many catapults on the way.
This game i am playing is presently in 1867, and i am in the process of assimilating the last two civs. Should be done by 1900. Nice map!!
A few notes of interest:
-this game admittedly isn't my first attempt, but in my first attempt, i ran a trireme up the edge of the map and made it to the land to the north
-long before i built LH, a Japanese trireme appeared on my island's coastline
-while rapidly taking over oppsing cities, i found that the ai could buils units abnormally fast, research tech abnormally fast and seems to have A LOT of gold to hand out (550 for my peaceful nature in one instance), not that i am complaining....
-silk caravan from my capital to german capital netted 480 gold!!!
tech path:alpha, code, cere, monarchy, warrior, feud, map, writ, masonry, math, chiv, lit, rep, curr, trade
Old n Slow
Emperor
Yeah, I'm running late -- this will be another last minute finish.
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