GOTM 38: First Spoiler

[SirPleb]

Yep, you know what i always say about workers

Yes indeed! I didn't even realize just how much I often focus on workers relative to most players until you pointed it out

 

[mad-bax]

PTW Predator.

I picked up this game last night again after the holidays and realised that I should have posted here before now.

I decided that I would try a Space Race game from the outset and researched Pottery, Alphabet, writing and map making at maximum. Through contacts I was then able to trade for Phil and CoL and then researched Republic with a single scientist for 14 turns, then turned up the wick to complete it 9 turns later. I then drew 6 turns of anarchy, traded myself into the middle ages and gifted Babylon into the MA. This occured at around 200BC though I could have got there earlier if I had bought the techs rather than waiting for Republic.

I settled on the starting position and formed two rings at RCP 3 and 5. The RCP 3 ring is identical to SirPlebs. Though the similarity ends there. I irrigated all the bonuses in the start position and shared the resources around, and once the land was worked properly had a comfortable 4 turn settler/warrior pump. I built barracks, worker then warriors in the first two rings except where they were on the coast, where I pre-built galleys. Once I had Lit and Col I then built libraries on the inner ring and courts in the second ring. I then built libraries in the second ring and markets in the inner ring, and then markets in the second ring and uni pre-builds in the inner ring--- boring I know, I'm sure you get the picture.

By the end of the QSC I had about 35 warriors and enough cash to upgrade them (because of the single scientist run on republic). I had just made contact with the two local civs and was able to attack Greece in 700BC. They fell over easily, mainly because I chose to make peace when they would give me all their cities, and immediately re-declared to take the final city. I assumed that Babylon would be a pushover too, and that eliminating them before they got further contacts would not be a problem. When will I ever learn? I generated a leader from this war which was used to found the FP South of the capital in the second ring. Some courthouses were switched to libraries in the new rank one cities.

I dedided that for speed, I would not build military, and that the 30 or so swords I had would have to be enough to take out Babylon (albeit at a leisurely pace). I roaded the range of hills that connected Greece with Babylon and ferried some reinforcements by boat, leaving a total of zero units on the start continent. I declared war on babylon around 350BC, and immediately wished I hadn't. Babylon felt able to field 3 stacks, totalling 34 units - about 25 of which were bowmen. I had failed to realise that they had been at war with Greece and were in the late stages of a GA. I managed to take 1 town and raze two others just to get a peace deal, but lost 8 units. I was gutted.

It was at this point that I traded for the techs to put me in the MA and gifted Babylon into the MA (unsuccessfully as it turned out).

Sorry no pictures, but there is nothing extraordinary to show.

 

[denyd]

Mursilis sat studying the information from the planetary survey. The proposed landing site had much to offer. Nearby livestock, natural grains and a river and productive grasslands would assist the early settlements and allow for rapid growth. “This looks like a job from an industrious leader with solid organizational skills” he said to his personnel files as he thumbed through them seeking the optimal candidate. “Mao’s been on the shelf for quite awhile, let’s give him this challenge,” he said reaching for the intercom button.

As the landing pod settled on to the soft grassland, Mao was quite pleased with this location. “We should settle right here” he ordered, “begin training scouts and get to work on that cattle over there. We’ll need lots of them to feed the people”.

The early reports from the scouts were mediocre. The nearby spices were a nice benefit, but no reports of nearby trading partners, caused him to wonder if we were once again isolated from the rest of the world. “We need to take precautions against joining the slow class,” he thought as he directed his scientists (who had just discovered pottery) to research the alphabet. Soon Beijing had settlers leaving every four cycles and new Chinese cities were being added in concentric circles around the capital. These new cities began building barracks and training warriors to defend his empire from the savages of the dark-lands. When it was finally confirmed that his nation was alone with the savages, he sent forth teams of warriors to eliminate the rabble from his lands. After 3000 years of rule, Mao was pleased to have 14 settlements and 18 trained warriors to defend them.

With the discovery of the alphabet, writing and the making of maps, Chinese galleys set to sea to seek out new lands, while the scientists began researching literature. In 750 BC, the Drake, a galley from Shanghai, makes contact with a Greek worker and Mao was relieved to find that his nation was as advanced as his neighbor. Word of great wonders being constructed in across the ocean (Pyramids) and in Greece (Colossus) caused a fear the his work on the Great Library would be for naught, but in 470 BC, Canton completed the Great Library and Mao ordered that all research funds are to be funneled to the treasury for use in upgrading his warriors to swordsmen.

With his island completely settled, Mao searched for new lands to acquire and it soon became evident that Greece in spite of the dreaded Hoplites, was the logical target. Quick swordsmen victories over the Greek defenders added nine cities to Mao’s domain, including Sparta with the Colossus. With Greece reduced to a single city, Mao sent his swordsmen south. A quick war with Babylon added another five cities to the Chinese empire. During the brief peace respite came word that a middle age wonder had been completed across the ocean and Mao knew that his future would be tied to the power of the Great Library.

When the peace treaty with Greece expired, his elite swordsmen made quick work of Alexander’s defenders and Greece was gone.

As Mao finished the positioning of troops for the second (and final) war with Hammurabi, word of a wonder cascade across the ocean led Mao to begin thinking about reaching them soon.

With the expiration of peace with Babylon, once again the Chinese swordsmen were on the march, this time accompanied by men on horseback. Seven Babylonian cities fell to the Chinese sword like dominoes tumbling as his troops marched on. With an elite horseman victory, the first Chinese Hero is born and he quickly speeds to Babylon to assist in moving the Chinese capital from Beijing. As the final Babylonian city falls to the mighty Chinese swordsmen, a garrison troops from both Babylonian coast send a wild messages to Mao. Strange sailing vessel, much larger than any galley is spotted off the coast. One of the vessels is flying green sails and the other yellow. China has been found by the other continent and in 790 AD, the Great Library gains Polytheism, Monarchy, the Republic and 14 Middle Age Technologies before going obsolete.

What to do now is the only question for Mao. With a well-stocked treasury of nearly 10,000 gold pieces, complete control of his empire and the strongest military in the world, the decision is made. The soon to be Republic of China is destined to dominate all the other nations of this planet.

 

[Jove]

@Solenoozerec:
Thanks for the reply, but I was trying to remember the name of the Orthodox Christmas, not the date. Doesn't it have its own name? N.....something, right? It's slightly maddening that I can't recall it.

 

[civ_steve]

1.27f

Just loaded the game for the first time on 1/3, and reached Middle Ages on 1/6. Only have 12 days to play the game, so it will have to be a fast one. My initial thought was 20K culture, possibly off-loading to a Diplo if time is running out, so this colors some of my initial decisions.

Founded Beijing in place and started Irrigating Cattles and putting roads in. Only saw one Commercial civ in F10 display, so started on Alphabet at Max right away (learned in 2800 BC). Sent 3 Warriors out scouting (using LuxTax to keep city productive, of course) and became suspicious rather quickly that we were all ALONE! Of course. Research to Map-Making was a high priority, so focused on commerce development. Next build was a Settler and Shanghai was founded to the SE on river and coastal. A 3.x Ring seems the most convenient spacing; 4 of my 6 city sites match SirPleb's and others, but I did place Canton to the NW of the Gold Hill; I wanted to use my Capital for Wonder building, so this city site allows Canton access to both Food bonuses, and Canton eventually built a Granary to produce Settlers.

Beijing had initial Settler duty, and built most of the 3.x ring without a Granary. Eventually started on Pyramids, was beaten to it by Babylon, but was able to switch to Great Library (finished in 710 BC); then built a Temple and Library. Started on Hanging Gardens.

After Alphabet came Pottery, Writing and MapMaking (1475 BC.) My Warrior outposts had already noted Green culture on a land just visible across a strait, so my first Galleys headed off and met Greece and Babylon just before the QSC period ended. Trading for Maps revealed no obvious other lands to contact, so my Galleys turned back and awaited the invevitable Invasion orders. I researched Literature next (for Great Library switch), then Code-of-Laws in 950 BC (traded for Wheel, BronzeWorking, CerBurial, IronWorking and I could see I had 2 sources of Iron and 0 sources of Horses - but Greece had some!). Next was Philosophy in 850 BC, traded for Mysticism. Then it was off for Polytheism and Monarchy to gain access to Hanging Gardens.

My core cities (other than Beijing which was working on Pyramids/Great Library and Canton which was building Granary/Settlers) built Barracks and started on Warriors, for MP and barb duty. I timed Map-Making well and had 2 Galleys in the Water on that turn; 2 more followed for exploration duty. Just about the time I was thinking my Military was a bit big, I learned Literature and all the core cities could build Libraries. Once Iron was connected (and their library finished), the core started building Swordsmen and preparing for Greece.

The Coastal cities started forming a Galley stack of 'volunteers' that finally set sail to discover far off lands. They were eventually successful in 470 BC, but just barely. The last 2 Galleys made it to culture, but were still in a Sea space. Fortunately they could see a city and made contact (Whew!), but they sank at the end of the turn! (This is a mystery I've pondered from time to time - how does the communication get back to the capital?!?? Message in a bottle? Carrier Pigeon? Smoke signals? Psychic channeling? ) I traded for Communications and maps, and came to know all other peoples. The Great Library was poised to provide me with new Technologies. I soon knew about Republic, started a Revolution, and a mere 7 turns later I were one. Construction was learned from the GreatLibrary during the Anarchy period, and Currency shortly after, propelling me into the MidAges. I usually save the Game at key points (partly for documentation), but I blew it and forgot to do that, so I'm guessing it was in the 300 BC to 250 BC time period.

The RNG has been excessively streaky in this game! I attacked a Greek city defended by 2 Regular Hoplites with a Stack of 6 Vet Swordsmen, and lost 5 of them (leaving 1 1hp Sword behind.) Then, when I eventually attack Athens with 9 Swordsmen (1 Elite and 8 Vet) vs 3 Hoplites (1 Vet and 2 Reg), I win the first 3 attacks taking NO losses! I send the 6 remaining Swords against Corinth, and the Following turn, against 2 Hoplites (1 Vet, 1 Reg), again lose 5 Swords. While I was losing, I counted one period of 13 random results with 12 'losses' and 1 'win'; when I won against Athens, I got 10 'wins' and 2 'losses' during that RNG streak. I calculate a Sword vs Fortified Hoplite with no other defensive benefits to be roughly a 43% win/ 57% lose per random result, and in all cases I'm facing Hoplites fortified in a city on Grassland. I don't know if there's a game setting that affects the deviation within the RNG, but if there is I'd much rather prefer a more benign setting - it's very difficult to set up and plan battles when 6 on 2 loses, but 3 on 3 wins!

At 1000 BC I had 1 city and 9 towns, total # of citizens was 33. Military was 1 Settler, 7 Workers (much rather have 25!), 19 Warriors and 4 Galleys. Had 1 Granary, 1 Harbor, 1 Library and 4 Barracks. Techs I know - 1st tier: Masonry, Alpha, Pott, WarCode and Wheel; 2nd Tier: Writing; 3rd tier: Map-Making and Literature. Two turns away from Code-of-Laws and 12 turns from Great Library (but it actually took 14 because I'd use one of the food bonuses in Beijing on alternating turns.)

Here's my empire at 470 BC, the turn I made remote contact:

 

[solenoozerec]

Your Greece is unusualy active
When Mycenae was built?

 

[civ_steve]

Well at least 10 turns ; so earlier than 670 BC. Not sure; my notes are real spotty since I'm playing pretty fast.

 

[Mark Cutt]

I settled on the starting tile, research Pottery and build Warrior -> Granary -> first settler in 2900BC, then a Settler every 4 turns.

After Pottery I start the research path to Monarchy. Maybe I'd better research to Map Making but I did not realise we were on a island.

I produced settlers, workers, barracks and warriors till 1000BC. Even when I understtod I war producing more warriors then needed for military pourposes I continue to have 3 policeman (max for Monarchy) in each key city.

I created a 3/6/10 crp rings.

The 3 tile ring allowed me to share premium tiles and required tons of micromanagement in each turn.

I met barbarian late in the game (1500BC) and 2 archers were enough deal with them.
In 1100BC China became a Monarchy and we start the research path toward Map Making.
I did not meet any other civ.

At 1000BC I had:
21 cities
50 citizens
1 settler
11 workers
23 warriors
2 archers

 

[Offa]

@ Mark Cutt: great start (of course). What victory are/were you pursuing. I seem to recall you saying that you are not allowing yourself domination (?or conquest) as those were skills you had mastered.

edit:
PS why monarchy?

 

[AlanH]

@Mark Cutt: Nice start! That's quite a low number of workers, but I guess when you have such a dense city placement you have fewer tiles to work, and with industrious workers they can do a lot. I felt I needed a lot just to deal with the jungle.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

It's a trade off between more workers and more cities.
You can use the citizens that you have only once, either for workers or for settlers.

Since this distance 10 ring is very corrupt however, i would value those cities so low that i'd much rather have the workers to optimize my first 2 rings.

Therefore i think stats like that of Sir Pleb with fewer cities and population but 25 workers are much more beneficial.

That said, your city and population count are still impressive, and you sure made a very good start. Many players have similar worker counts with much fewer cities/population.

I normally don't favor such a dense placement, but you have obvious reasons for this since there is no decent posibility for an rcp 7 ring while the rcp6 offers many sites.
I would have only build a few less cities in the rcp3 ring, this would give the remaining cities more space and also the rcp6 cities would then suffer significantly less corruption. I think i would put 4 or 5 cities in the rcp3 ring.

 

[AlanH]

It's a trade off between more workers and more cities.
You can use the citizens that you have only once, either for workers or for settlers.

As with everything in Civ3, I think it's more complicated than that. With more cities you are producing more ctizens. To a first approximation, and before you get into solid jungle, each city will initially produce a citizen every 10 turns. Also, putting more cities near Beijing means they start producing citizens earlier on average because each settler has a shorter distance to travel.

I had rings at 3 and 6, but with 5 and 6 cities in them compared with Mark's 7 in each, so that's a difference of 3 in the core - probably 30% more low-corruption towns. I then had 3 more in the south by 1000 BC. Mark must have had the 4 we can see plus two more.

I'm also intrigued by the heavy use of MPs. Each city supports only two units in Monarchy, so putting three in each one costs gpt. Isn't it better to be selective about using MPs only in larger towns, use the slider to control happiness, and put the shields into other production?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

As with everything in Civ3, I think it's more complicated than that. With more cities you are producing more ctizens. To a first approximation, and before you get into solid jungle, each city will initially produce a citizen every 10 turns. Also, putting more cities near Beijing means they start producing citizens earlier on average because each settler has a shorter distance to travel.

I had rings at 3 and 6, but with 5 and 6 cities in them compared with Mark's 7 in each, so that's a difference of 3 in the core - probably 30% more low-corruption towns. I then had 3 more in the south by 1000 BC. Mark must have had the 4 we can see plus two more.

I'm also intrigued by the heavy use of MPs. Each city supports only two units in Monarchy, so putting three in each one costs gpt. Isn't it better to be selective about using MPs only in larger towns, use the slider to control happiness, and put the shields into other production?

Indeed, it is always more complicated, but i find it often better to keep my message a bit more simple (as long as it is still true) than try and include every detail. Whenever i try doing that, i start to produce pages of incoherent text that noone will ever read or understand

Of course the extra cities do produce more citizens, but citizens in a totally corrupt city are not really usefull. Except for building more settlers and workers that is. Therefore, i rather build the workers immeadiately then to build corrupt cities at the cost of 2 pop that can only build some workers slowly. In this particular map most rcp 10 cities also seem unable to work any 2 food squares.

For the first cities you build however this is very true (and yes, i did think about including this orriginally but decided to keep it simple) When building the first 6 or so cities, the cities are more important than the workers because they produce more citizens. Therfore i often have only like 3 workers or so by the time i have 6 cities while by the time i have 15 cities, i will have 20 workers.
During QSC, the emphasis starts on settlers, then shifts to workers. It is difficult to say exactly when and at what speed to shift to workers, and to prevent those uncoherent pages, i am not gonna speculate now, but i am convinced sir plebs game has a better moment of shifting to workers than Mark Cut. (Of course if Mark now beats sir pleb soundly this game, i will retract all of this )

I cannot say too much about the MP, i never use monarchy and despotism is too short to really use the MP for more than just the few worriors i build when production exceeds growth between settlers and workers.

I think however the MP is a decent solution in monarchy. I would not even count the first 2 as free either, unless you plan to have absolutely no military power other than what you are using for MP.

Paying 1 gpt for 1 happiness is not so bad however. Temples and colloseums cost the same un upkeep but have a redicuous shield cost. You could see the warrior MP as a 10 shield temple without culture if you want.
The lux slider initially also costs 1 gold per happy citizen, but by the time you have libraries/markets, it is 1.5 gold per happy face, making the MP more efficient (happiness buildings as well, but their rediculous shield cost still make them a very bad investment if you don't need the culture)
Also do the MP have the advantage you can move them between towns when the happiness problems shift between towns and not all your towns are at max MP.
Therefore, i conclude in general cheap MP units are a good thing under monarchy.

 

[Redbad]

Paying 1 gpt for 1 happiness is not so bad however. Temples and colloseums cost the same un upkeep but have a redicuous shield cost. You could see the warrior MP as a 10 shield temple without culture if you want.

Very interesting, I never looked at this that way. Ofcourse one needs to realize it's only true for monarchy. After revolting to republic the temples are the better choice, i think.

As to Mark's game: I would have placed the cities of the 10-ring in a new ring for a second core. Preferable distance: an 4-ring. Then at a conveniant moment jump the palace.
One could even consider to rebuild a city at the site of the former capitol. The greek or bab war might provide for a MGL who could hurry the FP at the old capitol site. This would give a hugely productive island.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

i assume people stick with the government they have chosen for
Revolting to republic after choosing Monarchy is ALMOST as bad as choosing monarchy and staying in monarchy

 

[Redbad]

i assume people stick with the government they have chosen for
Revolting to republic after choosing Monarchy is ALMOST as bad as choosing monarchy and staying in monarchy

You have a point again, but I can't help making another remark. Though true in this situation, it's not true for a religious civ.

 

[Mark Cutt]

@ What victory are/were you pursuing. I seem to recall you saying that you are not allowing yourself domination (?or conquest) as those were skills you had mastered.

I was pursuing conquest. It's one of the 3 fastest victory award I still miss.

@ why monarchy?

I prefer Monarchy for Domination and Conquest game. It's faster to reach (it's not uncommon to become a king before 1000BC), you can use cheap military police and have no war weariness problem. Last but not least, I won all my four medals with games where I researched Maonarchy first.

 

[Mark Cutt]

@Mark Cutt: That's quite a low number of workers, but I guess when you have such a dense city placement you have fewer tiles to work, and with industrious workers they can do a lot. I felt I needed a lot just to deal with the jungle.

Yes, the number of workers @ 1000BC was low. I partially fixed this issue in the following turns. I had 10 more workers 30 turns after 1000BC.

 

[denyd]

I find the 3-6-10 to be too confining for my most productive cities. When they get above size 6, they run out of tiles to work. I went with a 4-8-12 for this map and got 7 (plus capital) in my first ring and those cities were highly productive throughout the entire game. I only had 4 cities on my 8 ring (map limiting) and they were primarily for building cheaper items (boats, workers & to be upgraded units). My 12 ring was only for grabbing luxuries and blocking out the AI from settling my island and concentrated on being food orientated (harbor/aqueduct) with a single culture item for growth. Even with a 4-8-12 setup, I found a couple of my size 12 cities having a specialist due to lack of tiles to work until I MM'd the surrounding cities.

 

[Mark Cutt]

Since this distance 10 ring is very corrupt however, i would value those cities so low that i'd much rather have the workers to optimize my first 2 rings.

As to Mark's game: I would have placed the cities of the 10-ring in a new ring for a second core. Preferable distance: an 4-ring.

I agree with both of you. Looking back at my QSC I think I made 3 major mistakes:
1) too many cities - the 10-ring wasn't very useful
2) too many warriors - even after upgrading them to Medieval Infantry they ere not very active. Riders were destroying enemies too fast. When Infantry reached enemies city they only found ruins.
3) I should have use the resourced saved by point 1) and 2) to have few more workers and to build 4/5 libraries to make my science grow quicker (just read SirPleb end game report to see what I mean).