Gotm 39 Final Spoiler - Game Submitted

[damnrunner]

by 500 AD I owned my landmass and soon afterward my caravels reported back that the ice wall could not be breached. I was expecting some sort of complex ice maze so I had built several caravels in case I needed to do lots of exploring.

I was able to settle a city only 2 tiles away from the northern barb city. This is not normally possible but I assume it did help flip the city earlier. I am not sure why I was able to do this. I built another city to the north of Paris near the sheep and then built several knights in these two cities.

Once I got cavalry I upgraded the knights and switched to Democracy and to 100% gold. I was buying several new cavalry units each turn and at this point I was quickly able to overrun the other civs.

Conquest in the 1700s

 

[Cactus Pete]

Hi Cactus Pete. Thanks for your constructive approach to criticism. That's the intended spirit.

You are not the only one that didn't like this map's 'surprises'.
Not complaining about surprises per se.

Illogical map? Unpredictable? --> Great! That's what was intended. "Expect the unexpected", remember? Perhaps there's a limit here. This map is so improbable. Could it ever be generated naturally by the game?

Deliberately deceptive? Penalizes sound play? --> Oh, no! I don't want to trick anyone. I felt tricked. You thought all the players would anticipate a barrier to circumnavigation? I want medals and awards go to the best players. This is a big cause of concern for me. I'm worried. What makes you to think that? The partial map revealed early begged for Astronomy ASAP as the optimal way to conquer the world quickly and garner rewards. If one didn't recognize that and directed efforts towards other research, that was likely to be rewarded. (I suspect that the best players will all make the same 'mistake' yet still do well, but I doubt your purpose was to level the playing field.)

Your feedback is highly appreciated. I would like to gather more information about the sources of your feelings.
In particular:

- Would you have liked the map more if the 1 tile island hadn't been there, making Astornomy necesssary for the Eastwards trip? Yes, that would have been somewhat mitigating.

- Would you have liked the map more if there had been a hole in the sea barrier Either that or make the barrier known very early in the game., making culture flipping innecesary for military victories? Liked the culture flipping aspect, given that the best city locations resulted in that, even if it the player didn't anticipate its necessity.

- Would you have liked the map more if the sea barrier had been visible from our coast? Yes, but you'd have had to create a long coastline.

- Having flipped a barb city (you did, didn't you?), don't you think that not realising that Astronomy is not needed in this game might be due to not enough exploration? Some truth to that, but does not apply until well into the game. Also, exploration doesn't show that building galleys/galleons on the mainland is unproductive (even if not needed).

- Would you have liked the map less if the barb city hadn't been visible from the very begining?

No, more . . . if not visible, there would have been no pre-game discussion of flipping.

Could a player conquer the world without flipping? How could you do that?

 

[BLubmuz]

As i said, i liked this map, exactly for its "scenario" aspect.

The only complaints are for the lack of food in Carib (mainly) and in Saxon.

If i would have won by domination it was enough to switch to build military in the 2 former barb cities, take Napo, then i think 3 cities from Vicky were enough.
Probably i would have achieved this before 1500 AD.
Conquest was more difficult, but not much.
Anyway i can't see why to go for a long conquest game when you can have a fast domination, with the mainland cities sustining economy and research.

Since i like SR, i've found this game optimal for that VC.
The lack of food until Bio was compensated by the Philo trait.

I was wrong in some of my spoilers, i has Machinery in 395 AD, after literature, currency and construction (prioritized this for the bridges).
Forge and barracks were enough to start a massive military production in the 2 barb cities. What can do Napo with maces, cats, WE and soon knights with axes, archers and spears?
You don't need cavalry to beat those.

I got some save around 500 AD, i can try, just to see.

 

[Adama]

WONDER-MONGERING with a bent for WAR

As I said in my first spoiler, I guess you call my play “wondermongering with a martial attitude.”

I had built the Oracle, Parthenon, and Pyramids before 500AD, and the Colussus in 65oAD, I destroyed Genghis in 275AD and Roosevelt in 83oAD.

Some THINGS I LEARNED

I’ve never been fond of Great Artists (unless I was aiming for a cultural victory). I bulbed one GA for Theology (founded Christianity 740AD) and used them along the Music route (at Music I got the free GA 545AD) toward Divine Right (founded Islam, but holy city was on the “Outer Banks”) Nationalism, so I was able to get Military Tradition free from Liberalism (for Calvary).

I circumnavigated the world ca. 12ooAD, and soon thereafter learned the truth about the Outer Banks, and the rest of the “parallel universe” map.

Suddenly I had the urge to go Cultural, or into Space. But, instead the Outer Banks became my Normandy. (I thought about paratroopers—but there are none in vanilla Civ—or maybe a beeline to Airports, but Flight was too far away). That's the thought process of an inexperienced player like me.

I also learned about land supply routes through the mountain stream when I attacked Nappy. Without open borders with Napoleon, the French culture cut off my borders with the homeland via the mountain river connecting us, and suddenly I had a lot of unhappy population in one of my Outer Banks cities. But, only for one turn, until I took the French coastal city causing the problem.

I learned that my army of Mace, Knights and Cats was very well stymied and countered by Nappy’s War Elephants with various promotions like the 25% melee promotion, since the WE’s have the bonus against mounted units already. So, I turned my eyes toward Vicky, who had no ivory.

Do you know how hard it is to supply American troops in Afghanistan (by land through Pakistan)? Well, that’s nothing compared to trying to supply the Outer Banks…

I also learned it was okay in a Specialist Economy (SE) – my first attempt at running a SE-- to join specialists into my GP city (the old Mongol capital, Karakorum). I was still settling great scientists and great merchants ca. 15ooAD.

MY FIRST …

After I got rolling against Vicky, I realized that I had a chance to achieve a Conquest Victory—something I had never before accomplished.

So I did. Conquest Victory, 1794AD, base score of 5,597 and score of 41,123. No, it’s not award level achievement, but it was my first ever conquest and this game (because of its map) will always be a favorite.

Adama

 

[The-Hawk]

I'll be more careful next time so that you don't have to suffer the disgrace of playing as a leader called 'jesusin".

I think I disgraced you... at the end I got a message "jesusin has won a culture victory". The CIV gods are used to seeing this, but were probably wondering why the finish time was way slower than normal .

Finally finished in 1752, which felt really slow.

Beat me by 16 turns, so from my vantage, looks pretty fast . I got involved in an extra war that I really didn't need which cost me a better time. Also, I had horrible luck on two of my late GP's. One popped a GS at less than 5% probability (at one point, I had an unhappy face, when I turned up the culture slider, he decided to come back as a scientist... which I missed for a couple of turns). Another was a Prophet with less than 20% probability. Not sure how many turns I could have saved with two extra GAs.

 

[smitsk00]

After a solid start, Feederick got a bit dsitracted in his isolation and made some mildly intoxicated mistakes. Saxon did not work the wheat as much as it should have and therefore did not make enough military to have any effect on the east other than being the Daoist holy city, which was also the dominant religion in the east. Frederick became so obsessed with building a shrine there that he actually stopped running other specialists in order to pop a GP in saxon! Someone should have assassinated him.

Hence, Fred did not discover Optics until 1300??!!! He soon found that his glorious planned invasion of the east by boat was a farce. So he started running specialists in all his production cities (Washington, Karakorum, and one western coatal city were heavily cottaged). He had no foreign trade,so ran Rep, Beaurocracy, Caste, Merc, and Pacifism for most of the game and did mamage to make a lot of Great People. Built a lot of Wonders, which also likely casued a slowing in tech speed due to working mine/workshops instead of running specialists. Eventually the Germans reached Alpha Centauri in 1938AD.

I learned a lot about focusing my priorities and not being too greedy in this game, even when you are WAY ahead in tech. I tried to build too much and probably popped two of three fewer GP and lost a lot of beakers in the process.

I did enjoy the map though!

 

[jesusin]

Thank you, srad and Cactus Pete, I understand the problem better now.

Could it ever be generated naturally by the game?

The pregame thread also said "heavily edited", remember?
You shouldn't have been expecting anything naturally coming from the map generator.

I felt tricked

My appologies to you, to Jeffa, and to everyone else who felt that way. It wasn't intended.

I think the West barrier was a good idea, forcing the conquest and domination victories to "start from scratch" a whole new civ on the other side. But I realise there were better ways to implement this idea.

By the way, I tried to set up the "no world wrap" option, but I couldn't find it, I think it is a BTS-only thing. That would have definitely been more elegant and less prone to disatisfaction.

The partial map revealed early begged for Astronomy ASAP as the optimal way to conquer the world quickly and garner rewards.

Interesting question about this: Imagine there was a hole in the sea barrier or no sea barrier at all. Having read about the best domination date so far, achieved going Easwards:
Do you think that loaded galleons travelling Westwards would have led to a faster domination?

I suspect that the best players will all make the same 'mistake' yet still do well, but I doubt your purpose was to level the playing field

It wasn't my purpose, right. I still hope I haven't done that.

No, more . . . if not visible, there would have been no pre-game discussion of flipping.[/COLOR]
I'm surprised here! You want to see the sea barrier early but you don't want others to see the opportunity to flip a barb city early!
I guess I would have had many more complaints about the map if the barb cities hadn't been visible from the beginning.

Could a player conquer the world without flipping? How could you do that?

Hey, I hoped players wouldn't need my help to answer this question!

Did anyone try nuclear weapons to melt the ice?
Did anyone try helicopters?
Did anyone look for parachuters in the civilopedia?
Did anyone try submarines?
Did anyone try airports?
Did anyone try to be assigned a city through AP elections (BTS only!)?
Did anyone try to be assigned a city through UN?
Did anyone try flipping a barb city?
Did anyone try something else? (If so I have to admit I didn't, in my test games)

If you had already flipped a barb city:

Did anyone try US to buy units?
Did anyone try drafting?
Did anyone try HE in the East? (I didn't, in my test games)

 

[jesusin]

Not sure how many turns I could have saved with two extra GAs.

Oh, come on! Don't be lazy! Please calculate exactly how many turns you would have saved. It's the least you can do for "the CIV gods" as compensation for your sacrilege

 

[ShannonCT]

Interesting question about this: Imagine there was a hole in the sea barrier or no sea barrier at all. Having read about the best domination date so far, achieved going Easwards:
Do you think that loaded galleons travelling Westwards would have led to a faster domination?

It certainly would have for me. I built several coastal cities, about 6-8 galleys, and dozens of units in anticipation of a galleon invasion of the other AI, only to have my caravels find this was impossible. If there was some way to know this before researching Optics, it wouldn't have been so bad, but as it was, I wasted a bunch of beakers and hammers chasing a phantom.

In the end, I flipped the northern barb city, conquered the southern one, and conquered France with units from those two cities. In the 10-15 turns prior to domination, I started airlifting uints from airports, but this was a minor contribution.

For all intents and purposes, you had to flip a barb city to get conquest/domination. And if the barbs built a wonder, you were screwed.

My impression of this game was that it was too contrived and gimicky.

 

[Gosha190]

Did anyone try HE in the East? (I didn't, in my test games)

Because of GP fail, I passed way to astro at all and built HE in the south barb city. That let me got good army and easily killed Nappy and Liz using only 2 barb cities for building troops.

additionaly I used 2 GAge to speed up troops production

 

[Gosha190]

As for me:
map is interesting. Thanx jesusin!

 

[SirDrake]

Let's start with some comments (and b***ing) about the map:

The River

Until reading the "first spoiler" thread and catching an offhand reference, I did not know that the river to Carib would allow the passage of resources.

And I am not the least bit ashamed of learning it this way. If anyone should be ashamed, it is the game's designer (Firaxis) for allowing such counterintuitive nonsense. It is certainly not covered in the rulebook (oh, wait... there is no rulebook).

Maps, gold, technologies, and sundry threats can be magically airlifted in the 3rd century. Yet even a hardy explorer cannot navigate a mountain pass (a deep river pass, no less!). Unfriendly cultural borders block the flow of resources, but not Caravels, and I can only guess as to how they affect trade routes.

Again, I say, this is not laid out in the rules; and there is no consistency with other game mechanics that would allow a player to accurately deduce it.

You (jesusin) are forgiven for making use of the mechanic, but fie on Firaxis for allowing it.



The Ice Barrier

Cactus Pete - I felt tricked. You thought all the players would anticipate a barrier to circumnavigation?

jesusin - I want medals and awards go to the best players. This is a big cause of concern for me. I'm worried. What makes you to think that?

Cactus Pete - The partial map revealed early begged for Astronomy ASAP as the optimal way to conquer the world quickly and garner rewards. If one didn't recognize that and directed efforts towards other research, that was likely to be rewarded.

I wouldn't necessarily say I feel "tricked", but otherwise I'm in full agreement with Cactus Pete. The player who knows the designer (you) and correctly anticipates the map design gains a massive advantage (as does the fool who makes a wild guess).

I expected to circumnavigate, as no ice barrier could realistically cross the open sea (hydrothermodynamically speaking, the ice-shrouded inlets are much more plausible). Curiously, I thought it possible that there would be a second barrier, but I assumed it would be like the first, with mountains included, probably between Isabella/Asoka and the Normans. Did that occur to anyone else?

So my final caveat(s): The map was innovative, the gameplay was interesting, and it was a fun experience. I'd certainly be eager to play another "Mystery" map should you feel brave enough to make one. But the final score and finish date do not accurately represent the quality of play.



And now some notes on my game:

As previously mentioned, I founded Confucianism in Saxon and did not flip Carib (nor did I bother to conquer it), so we were a great, Godless empire. Funny, but not important.


jesusin - Interesting question about this: Imagine there was a hole in the sea barrier or no sea barrier at all. Having read about the best domination date so far, achieved going Easwards:
Do you think that loaded galleons travelling Westwards would have led to a faster domination?

Perhaps not, but,

a) As previously mentioned, I didn't catch the river-route mechanic, which would have encouraged me to start picking off French cities much earlier. Instead, I beelined Astronomy and was well set-up for a seafaring war.

b) Finish date, schminish schate. The intro screen commands me to build "A Civilization that will Stand the Test of Time" and I play for score as much as speed. Even if slightly slower, the transoceanic strategy would be higher-scoring because it would devote more resources to advancing technology and developing the homeland.

c) There were plenty of units (many well-promoted) left over from the Mongolian-American wars which went to waste. And don't forget that Saxon/Carib still have to build transports and warships, even if the distance is short.

d) Circumnavigation is hardwired in my DNA.


jesusin - Did anyone look for parachuters in the civilopedia?
...
Did anyone try airports?
...
Did anyone try something else?

I considered airports, airlifts, and paratroopers, 'though I used none (the latter for obvious reasons). I also kept wondering why I couldn't pop a Great General during my early wars. Where is he?


jesusin - If you had already flipped a barb city:

Did anyone try US to buy units?
Did anyone try drafting?
Did anyone try HE in the East?

Definitely on the last. As soon as I mapped the ice barrier, I build the HE in Saxon.

But in my circumstances, Universal Suffrage would've been a waste. Instead, I built 6 or 7 Catapults in Saxon and then spawned Spearmen (the cheapest unit available at my tech level)-- I ended out with about 14 of them on the east side. Then when I hit Rifling I turned off the tech slider (temporarily), upgraded the whole batch, and did France. I was generating so much commerce at that point that I was able to upgrade to Infantry by the time I faced England, although it wasn't really necessary.


Oh, and I did settle the little island with horsies down south. Because I could.


Cheers,
Jason

 

[Gosha190]

I also kept wondering why I couldn't pop a Great General during my early wars. Where is he?

You mean - you was able to pop him in your's late wars?!

 

[BLubmuz]

The River

Until reading the "first spoiler" thread and catching an offhand reference, I did not know that the river to Carib would allow the passage of resources.

And I am not the least bit ashamed of learning it this way. If anyone should be ashamed, it is the game's designer (Firaxis) for allowing such counterintuitive nonsense. It is certainly not covered in the rulebook (oh, wait... there is no rulebook).

The basics.
Just the basics of this game.

In CIV the rivers connect cities, even different rivers, 'cause they connect the cities via sea coast. See Oasis map, to better appreciate this effect.

@jesusin
you probably missed it, i built the HE in Carib, to take Saxon and take care of Napo, or - as i said - to avoid surprises.

Again, a very fun map, tired to see great scores from early warmongers.

 

[bestje]

thoughts on the map:
I enjoyed it as I said in the other thread a map with a difference is a nice change.

also i quite enjoyed the isolation, with two other civs quite close I wiped both out fairly early on by 230AD the continent was all mine and after a bit of rexxing I have enough cities and the AI can't get to me so I don't need to build an army.

at this point I decided the little voice in the corner of the screen was telling me to go culture so I did. got confuscianism, christianity and islam and managed to build the parthenon, sistine, notre dame in my culture cities and GLib and collosus elsewhere.
was disappointed about missing taoism though

managed to flip saxon really late on in the game also built the Taj, just to end in a golden age!
managed to get all 3 capitals to legendary in 1853AD

so pretty slow really especially for noble but without any trade all game not too bad, i never did flip carib

 

[dr_s]

If I were to make one change to the map, I would eliminate the river connecting Carib to the other cities on that land mass and force the player to choose which civs to trade with by the location of the capital.

I would have been very disappointed had there been a sea passage to the west. That would have made this map little different from a regular continents map, IMO.

I did switch to US after I got to liberalism in case I wanted to rush buy units in the east, but I never did; it wasn't needed. I probably rush bought some theaters to more quickly pop borders, though.

I can't remember if I built the HE in the east; if I didn't, I probably didn't build it at all.

 

[BLubmuz]

Unbelievable!!!
I played some turn from an early save.
And what Saxon built?

STONEHENGE!!!

I'd like to see how you can flip that.

To verify my possible domination, better play from a more advanced save.

 

[great-big-gobs]

Settled 1nw and built 2nd city to west for horses and to protect against getting boxed in. Slowly took over w of barrier (DOW Roos in 265 BC, GK in 1160 AD). Carib finally flipped in 1358, and I started buidling with gold like crazy E of the barrier. West finally fully captured in 1709. Founded 2nd city on Carib land to try to get Saxon to flip. It was forcibly flipped in 1856.
It was taking me a long time to get things lined up E of the barrier. Piling gold into bulding forces E, I was falling behind in Tech and Culture, especially to Asoka. Watching Asoka go for the spaceship path, I decided to go for Domination, and go for Flight and Panzers. Before that, joining a gang-up on Napoleon got me cities across the channel, plus Nottingham.
Now, I'm not that efficient in combat, and I don't quite understand how territory around a conquered city stays so long with the former culture in Civ 4. This game is only one of a handful of C4 games I've completed. Anyhow, it was taking me a while.
Anyhow, I finally wiped out Napolean but still needed a little more so I DOW against Victoria and her ally Asoka, who had already built several spaceship parts, and won the mess in 1990. Got to try subs and spies, though...
Subs do go through the barrier. And a single destroyer of mine parked up against the sea barrier nearest the Asoka landmass kept most of his navy bottled up there.
Interesting and fun map. Yes, Jesusin, you messed with us, and did a nice job of it.

 

[Lagashvili]

Finishing GK in 605 AD as the last in the West, concentrating on research and building military units in Saxon (including the HE). Taking Carib and founding one city on the continent as a bridgehead for taking on Napoleon and Victoria. Reaching domination after some easy wars (a bit after 1600).

- "We yearn to join our Motherland".
- "What! Get real! You are barbarians and have no motherland."
Didn't know that barbarians could be so emotional but I got some unhappiness in Illinois, a large barbarian city on the west coast that I (or rather jesusin) conquered.

 

[toller pretzl]

First of all, I loved the map.
My one small gripe would be the sea barrier. I thought that was a bit much.

Interesting question about this: Imagine there was a hole in the sea barrier or no sea barrier at all. Having read about the best domination date so far, achieved going Easwards:
Do you think that loaded galleons travelling Westwards would have led to a faster domination?

Of course not, just look at C63's result. But don't you see ? Exactly because of this, the sea barrier served no good purpose, except to make some players bang their heads. When they were already punished enough by not going eastwards fast.

Now none of this made any difference to my game, because I went again for a ..... cultural victory in 1676.

But the map designer played at least one cruel joke on me also. Here I was happily building cathedrals (12 in all), safe in the knowledge that the kind designer had given me both stone and marble. When suddenly I noticed that the cathedrals were taking longer to build than the hermitage. How can that be ? I've never seen that before Hey, no copper! So I halted production of the cathedrals and sent 3 workers to the other end of the map to make a copper mine. Quite an eye-opener I thought, well done!