GOTM 40: First Spoiler

[Redbad]

PTW open

I didn't make notes this time, so only some thoughts and actions from memory.

Considering the starting situation (lots of coastal positons, fish, river) and the Greek treats (commercial and scientific), I get visions of gold and science. And ofcourse gold = science and science = diplomatic goal. (science also could mean space goal, but space also requires shields and I did space in the German GOTM). So it will be diplo.

Settle 1NW. Building orders granary, settler, warrior, colossus.
Research <pottery> <writing> <mapmaking> <code of law> <philosophy> <republic>
Desired wonders: Colossus, G-light, Copernicus, Newton, Adam S, ToE and UN.

Everything went smoothly, building 4 towns on the starting continent (AINWOOD), and then colonising the surrounding islands. Buiding orders for the island-cities were harbour, library and aquaduct.

In the 6th century BC G-light was build and I was certain there was no easy way to the neighbours. I was researching republic at the time which was still some 6 or 8 turns away.
Three galleys set sail from ... on a ... course. ... one galley sank but two made it to save waters. And I met the good old X-man, the one who taught me fear in the Iroquois-deity-game. Xerxes already knows republic and is up on mathematics and some minor techs also. He knows the Romans, Carthagians and Arabs, he’s annoyed and not interested in anything I have or suggest.

However I do spot a possible city-site at the coast between two of his cities. Xerxes being this advanced on Regent would mean he must have very reasonable land. Of his neighbours I don’t think that the Romans or Arabs are good scolars, so I estimate that only Hannibal would be of use in the research-business. That’s why I think Xerxes will have done a fair deal of research himself and thus will have reasonable land. So a second core in Persia could be a good choice.

That’s in the long run, right now ofcourse the X-man won’t trade so I’ll go looking for his neighbours. One galley to the right and one to the left, ofcourse swimming the sea to avoid barbarian attacks. ... galley meets a neighbour, but to my surprise, it isn’t one of Xerxes neighbours, but Shaka. Zulu knows Egypt and Babs but is quite backwards himself. I trade for all the techs, communications, maps and gold there is from Shaka, Cleo and Hammi. And that includes, to my joy, also polytheism, a tech the X-man hasn’t got.
Xerxes is willing to trade mathematics and the last turn on republic for polytheism, but no communications. I go for it (and get a three turn anarchy). From the maps of the ZEB-continent I know I have to sail back to meet Xerxes friends.

Next turn I spot a wounded Arab warrior just outside the culture of Persia. To my surprise the Arabs are up on currency but down on philosophy, polytheism and ofcourse republic. Being wounded and not having traded with Xerxes I suppose there could be a war between them. I don’t want to pay monopoly prices for currency, so I buy communications with the Romans and Carthagians for philosophy. And then I can’t believe what I’m seeing. The Carthagians not only know currency but also construction. The Romans add nothing, as expected.

The Carthagians want all for construction: communications with ZEB and all the techs I have, but I’m more then happy to pay. Now it’s easy to get currency from the Arabs.
I enter MA and get a free Feudalism. I immediatly introduce Hammi to the MA. He gets monotheism, and is willing to sell it for feudalism and republic. Next one to tell the good news is Xerxes. He gets engineering and trades it for monotheism and feudalism.

So in just two or three turns I’m from less than half the AA techs now having three MA techs. Time for some strategic decisions. To further increase the science I need strong partners. Xerxes and Hannibal are doing just fine, but Hammurabi isn’t. He has good lands but needs more cities. It would be best if he took over the Egyptian lands. So I dow on Cleo and bring in Hammurabi for engineering, and Shaka for a minor tech. I gift Hannibal the three MA techs I know. I start researching on theology and hope one of the others might research invention before I’m done with banking/astronomy.

 

[solenoozerec]

continent (AINWOOD)

Yep, no need to explain Ainwood that there are two continents in New Zealand

 

[ionimplant]

PTW open

Three galleys set sail from ... on a ... course. ... one galley sank but two made it to save waters.

is it just me that lost about 15 galleys before making any contact???
i was seriously pondering the question whether there is any difference in sending galley one by one and several at a time. shouldn't be, right?
after losing a dozen of them, i srarted to send out 2 fleet of 3 galleys together, the first fleet sank. the second finally had one making it to the other continent...

 

[Redbad]

@ionimplant

I'd say we were just on opposite sides of the luck-spectrum on this one.

In danger of being a spoiler:
Later on when transporting units across without navigation my actual galley-losses stayed under 50% of possible losses.

 

[bio_hazard]

@ionimplant

I feel your pain. I had 14/16 ships sink during a MA invasion attempt, but that tale of woe will have to wait until the next spoiler. Although this was discouraging enought that I may not finish off this game...

 

[Denniz]

is it just me that lost about 15 galleys before making any contact???
i was seriously pondering the question whether there is any difference in sending galley one by one and several at a time. shouldn't be, right?
after losing a dozen of them, i srarted to send out 2 fleet of 3 galleys together, the first fleet sank. the second finally had one making it to the other continent...

I lost 11 in the AA and only discovered one continent. I haven't tried to count my MA loses. I don't think alone or together matters much, more galleys just mean more chances to beat the RNG.

I suspect there could be a whole suicide galley/curragh thread just to talk about different approaches to pick where to send them.

For myself, on continents, I like to send them from points of land that stick out in the direction I want to go. This game didn't provide me any departure points I liked.

 

[budweiser]

I never lost more than one or two galleys. I must have been lucky. I know I lost one within sight of Babylon's continent and it was quite sometime before I was able to send another one out that way. I found X-man half way through the AA and I cant really remember if I lost one while looking for him.

Edit: Here is a question, are the poles considered land, or will you sink if you try to hug them?

 

[Tubby Rower]

Here is a question, are the poles considered land, or will you sink if you try to hug them?

The water near the poles is all Ocean. So anything that can't sail safely in an ocean is at jeopardy. Found that out in COTM09

 

[Xerol]

I lost tons of galleys moving along the poles, hoping to find some Sea tiles(since I had the Lighthouse).

 

[Puppeteer]

Regarding losing stacked galleys: What happens if, say, half my galleys are carrying troops and half aren't, and one of the troop galleys sinks? Will my troops auto-hop onto an empty ship in the stack, or will they go down with the ship? Could be very important for planning any invasion fleet.

 

[Denniz]

Regarding losing stacked galleys: What happens if, say, half my galleys are carrying troops and half aren't, and one of the troop galleys sinks? Will my troops auto-hop onto an empty ship in the stack, or will they go down with the ship? Could be very important for planning any invasion fleet.

I don't think so. If a ship sinks I think you lose what's loaded on it. No auto-hopping.

Most people do ship-chaining instead. Send them out empty, if they survive then the loaded ships meet them mid-ocean the next turn and transfer troops which are then moved by the survivors to shore or the next relay of survivors. Costs a lot of empty galleys and you have to plan your logistics carefully but at least you are not endangering your more land units too.

 

[bio_hazard]

That was certainly my experience- my stack of 16 had I think 10 fully ladden galleys and the rest empty. The two surviving galleys were empty- sure would have been nice if those units could swim! Sounds like ship-chaining is the way to go, at least before Nav.

I would imagine this has been discussed before, but why do you lose a movement point fording a river but not when ferrying a unit ship-to-ship?

 

[Denniz]

I would imagine this has been discussed before, but why do you lose a movement point fording a river but not when ferrying a unit ship-to-ship?

Ship-chaining only works if the ships are in the same square for the transfer. The transfer between ships is just unloading and loading like in a port. Moving from a unit from a ship to another square always cost all your movement points. Even if it is to another ship at sea. Sorry, if I wasn't clear.

 

[DJMGator13]

I reached the MA in 130AD, after 10 galleys sank. I even built the Lighthouse after seeing we were on a small island. I have 13 cities, full world map and contact with all civs.

Looks like RNG will be a major factor in this game. I see some people had great luck with early contacts. I spotted coastal tiles in 710BC before a galley sank. In 90BC I actually spotted a border before my galley sank. Finally made first contact (almost) in 10AD, I found a city but it was undefended so I had to wait 1 more turn for contact.

 

[Niklas]

predator.
Goal: Space or diplomatic. Highest possible tech rate in any case.

Settled by the delta 1 NW. Initial builds warrior-granary-settler. I quickly realized we were on an island, and a small one at that. RCP was useless, so I settled for RCP 2-4-6 ICS madness.

Some important dates:
3950 BC: Athens
3300 BC: Pottery researched
2630 BC: Sparta
1910 BC: Writing researched
1725 BC: Colossus in Athens. I hadn't planned on it initially, but I had nothing to build in Athens after first settler...
1575 BC: Thermopyle
1425 BC: Corinth
1400 BC: Map Making researched
1200 BC: Philosophy researched
1100 BC: Pharsalos founded, Delphi founded
1000 BC: End of QSC period.

6 towns, 16 pop (16 happy...).
2 granaries, 2 barracks.
The Colossus.
2 workers, 5 warriors, 4 galleys.
Techs are easily counted: BW, Alpha, Writing, MM and Philo.
CoL in 3 turns (once I restore the sliders again...).

925 BC: Code of Laws researched
875 BC: The Andromeda (galley) survives to meet Persia. No trade yet. The Penelope surives to spot a Carthaginian border, but dies on the IT.
850 BC: Xerxes must be close to researching CoL so I sell it to him for territory map and 29 gp.
750 BC: Meet the Romans. Buy WC, Masonry, CB and World map for CoL, Philo and 31 gp.
730 BC: Meet the Carthaginians.
690 BC: Meet the Arabs.
470 BC: Athens builds Great Lighthouse.
450 BC: Republic researched. Persia researched it on the same turn so no reason to hold on to it. I give Republic and my World Map for Maths, TW, IW, HBR, 99gp and a bunch of world maps.
410 BC: Meet the Zulus. They have Poly, but no trade yet.
410 BC: Revolution, 4 turn anarchy. I waited until I could pop-rush a harbor in Delphi on the wine.
390 BC: Meet Egypt. Buy world map and contact with Babylon for Maths and Philo. Sell Math, Philo, MM and CoL to Zulu for Poly, territory map and 76 gp.
330 BC: We are a republic. Embassies with all but Arabia.
290 BC: First time the barbs give me trouble, they sink the Medusa and stand on Athens' fish tile. Result is that Athens loses commerce and riots. Gah.
170 BC: Embassy in Mecca.
130 BC: Research Currency and enter MA. Persia does the same at the exact same time. I sell Construction and Currency to Babylon for map and 88 gp. All three of us get Engineering.

First thing I'm going to do in the MA is to gift up a few rivals, in the hope that some of them will help me with research. I will leave out a select few though, to have someone to pounce on...

 

[ts64]

GOTM40 OPEN PTW1.27f

I have not decided any victory condition yet.

Start
Move settler NW and found Athens 3950BC, worker stays and mine. First research is pottery. Build order is warrior, warrior, barracks as prebuild for granary.
Learn Pottery 3300BC, research writing at max.
Build granary 2850BC, start 1st settler.

I will settle RCP3, 6 and 8

QSC stats:
1 city, 5 towns
19 pop
3 workers, 2 warriors, 1 hoplite, 1galley
3 granaries, 1 barrack, 1 harbor
Tech: BW, Alphabet, Pottery, Writing, MM, Phil
1g in treasury
No contacts
QSC score: 1981 from mapstat Firaxis:118

Cities
3950BC Athens
2510BC Sparta
2270BC Thermopylae
1575BC Corinth
1325BC Delphi
1075BC Pharsalos

**************1000BC picture *****

0630BC Knossos
0530BC Argos
0290BC Mycenae
0130BC Plebos Nexia
0110BC Heraklia

*************70BC pic **********

Wonders
0975BC Colossus in Athens
0450BC The Great Lighthouse in Athens


Tech
3300BC Pottery
2070BC Writing
1325BC Mapmaking
1050BC Philosophy
0775BC Literature
0610BC Code of laws
0290BC A trading round

Babylon, I sell philosophy and TM for TM, 3g, the wheel, masonry and CB.
Egypt, I sell philosophy, TM and 7g for mysticism and warrior code
Zulu, I sell philosopy and WM for TM iron working and 9g
Egypt, I sell CoL and WM for TM and 109g
babylon, I sell CoL and WM for WM and 66g
zulu, I sell CoL for Horseback riding and WM

0250BC Republic, revolt 4 turn anarchy
0150BC Mathematics

Do some trading this turn

Carthage, I sell WM, republic and 23g for construction and contact with arabs
Persia, I sell WM, construction and 19g for WM, currency and contact with romans

0070BC Polyteism - get engineering as free tech


Contacts
0310BC Egypt
0290BC Zulu, Babylon - Egypt sold our contact IBT
0210BC Persia
0150BC Carthage
0150BC Arabia and Romans - through trade

I tried one suicide galley before TGL and it sank on the first IBT . I decided to wait for TGL and I was lucky with the next suicide galley I sent after TGL was built, this only had to survive 1 turn in ocean and it did .

 

[eldar]

What will be interesting to see... is how different the games of those who contacted both continents in the AA, as opposed to only one, differ.

I'm not entirely sure if having more contacts, is necessarily a better thing, at a level where self-research is always going to outpace the AI (especially on such a high commerce map such as this, with cheap libraries), and trade isn't possible until Navigation/Magnetism.

 

[ainwood]

Yep, no need to explain Ainwood that there are two continents in New Zealand

4 actually.

North Island
South Island
Stewart Island
West Island.

 

[bradleyfeanor]

Predator
Going for domination: hopefully a quick one.

The Ancient Age, 4000bc—290bc
Initial Moves
I moved the settler NW at the start in hopes of finding something interesting. No luck, so he founded Athens there. Initial build sequence in the capitol was warrior/granary, and research was pottery at maximum. I sent the worker to mine two bgs first--without roading in between--which allowed a granary on the turn before growth to size 3. The first settler was produced in 2750bc, and he founded a city at RCP2 on the next turn. That city also built a granary that would complete before growth to size 3.

Exploration of the Starting Continent
As my first warrior explored the coastline, he revealed our tiny island along with several even smaller ones off the coast. It didn’t take long for him to finish exploring (unfortunately!), and he had returned home by the time my first city grew to size 3. He then served MP duty on and off. That was pretty much it for exploration until Map Making was discovered in 1350 bc.

Expansion and Development
Once I had discovered how small our island was, I wasn’t thrilled with the location of my starting city: it would have been better a bit more north and east. Also, when I founded the capitol, I knew I was probably ensuring the SW fish would never be used. Given how little terrain we had to work with that single fish could be important.

I decided the best option for me was probably RCP 2, 4 and 6, with cities beyond that distance placed based on terrain rather than distance. The tight placement would at least allow the inner cities to share lots of bgs as they grew and shrank due to building settlers. I had six cities on the starting island, with room for a seventh. By the time I got to city 7, however, I was colonizing the islands, so I did not found that 7th city in the ancient age.

At the end of the QSC I had 8 towns, Pop 21, 2 barracks. 2 granaries, 1 library, 5 workers, 5 warriors (2 vet), 2 galleys (1 vet), Have BW, Pot, Alph, Write, MM, Lit, Phil due in 6, making 3gpt., Colossus is due in 3., 49g in treasury, No contacts.

My two granary cities concentrated on workers and settlers, although they also each built a barracks and several warriors (for MP duty) in between settlers. Two of my other cities were tied up in long-term projects: Thermo was building the colossus (finished 950bc) and Corinth the FP (finished 710bc). Initially, the Colossus was a prebuild for the Great Lighthouse. But I had done a bit of exploring by the time it completed, and was pretty sure there was no route to foreign civs by sea. Therefore I stuck with the Colossus for the research boost it would give later.

I was a bit slow in getting my libraries constructed due to the need for galleys, which I built quite a few of after the QSC. It took until 500bc for all cities on the main continent to get their libraries. By that time two cities also had harbors, and two more would be finished soon after that.

Exploration After Map Making
I built two galleys right after MM was discovered. One went to drop off settlers and workers on islands and the other went exploring. A barb ended its turn next to the latter galley after only a few moves, and I attacked it. I was damaged and the barb died, but in the process I saw several more barbs en route. My brave little galley captain decided to duck into the ocean. He lived and then returned home to heal. My southern galley then joined it and both spent many, many turns coming out, killing a barb, then ducking back into the city to heal. This hurt my exploration efforts, but at least it preserved my galleys. By the time it seemed I had finally cleaned out the barbs, I had six. They split into two groups (for protection) and went exploring. Four died (two on suicide missions and two to barbs), but two survived to meet the Persians in 850bc. There were no good trade options, as the only tech I had which the Persians lacked was literature. I think I lost 8 galleys in the ancient age (4 on suicide missions, 4 to barbs)

Research and Trading and Revolution
My early research path was Pottery (16 turns), Writing (30 turns), Map Making (19 turns) and Literature (12 turns). All these were at close to maximum speed. After that I began Philosophy (1050bc) at 70% in order to raise a bit of money, because I hoped to meet an AI soon.

In 710bc one of my galleys met the Romans, who lacked Philosophy. I then had the following trading turn:
Trade Rome WM, Phil and 219g for contact with Carthage and Arabia. Trade Carthage Lit, WM and 1gpt for CoL, IW and TW. Trade the Arabs CoL, maps, and 3gpt for Masonry, CB, maps and 4g. Trade Persia Lit and Maps for WC, Myst, Maps and 37g. Establish an Embassy with Rome, then declare war on Persia. Rome is 31 turns from the Pyramids. Trade Rome CoL, Lit, maps and an RoP for HR, 93g, maps and an alliance against Persia. I give Arabia lit for 38g. I probably could have allied them against Persia but I didn’t want to spend money on an embassy. Republic is due in 20 turns.

In 490bc another galley met Egypt, and the next turn it met the Zulu. These trades followed:
Trade Zulu my map, COL for Math, Maps and contact with Babylon. I establish an embassy with Babylon, and find she is at war with both the other AIs, which might explain why that continent is so underdeveloped. Her capitol is making 12 spt at size 5 with no mines. Sheesh. The Oracle is due next turn. I trade Egypt my map for hers and 27g (all). I trade Babylon Math for all her gold (98) and maps.

In 410bc we discovered Republic and began the revolt. First I drew a 5-turn anarchy, but on re-revolting I got a 2-turn anarchy.

In 390bc the Romans developed a monopoly on Poly, and a few turns later the Ottomans got Currency. I traded Republic to both civs for the techs. I also gifted Republic to the Arabs, because they were the only civ not at war with the Persians. Since I hoped to make the Persians my first military target, I wanted them in Republic so they could not pop-rush spears. It worked, as the Arabs gave the Persians Republic the next turn.

I cranked up science just to see how quickly construction could be learned: 4 turns, not even at maximum science. All those coastal tiles generate some serious research! I decided to turned science off in order to raise money for upgrading warriors to Med. Inf. as soon as I had iron connected. I was pretty sure an AI would get construction soon anyway.

In 290bc the Zulu got construction. I traded them currency and poly for it rather than republic, because I wanted republic to have full monopoly value when I traded it to Babylon for their free tech. I entered the Middle Ages and got monotheism for a free tech. When I gifted the Babylonians into the Middle Ages they got Feudalism. I traded them Republic for it as planned. I traded Poly to the Arabs for an alliance vs. the Persians, which left the Persians with no trading partners. I was hoping to isolate them so they would not have pikemen when I attacked. I certainly had no plans to gift them into the next age for their free tech.

Future Plans
A suicide fleet of 15 galleys will be complete soon. 14 warriors will be upgraded to Med. Inf. They will then, hopefully, show the Persians a little After the first wave I plan to send a few settlers in order to facilitate a palace jump. Assuming all my galleys don't make like the Titanic, of course.

 

[AlanH]

1.29

Predator

From the start of my turn log:

Turn 0 4000 BC Preflight
Greeks: Commercial, scientific. Cheap libraries. Start with Alphabet and Bronze.
Regent, so we'll do some research. First project - pottery at 100%.
We want to build on the river, so settler NW, sees plains as expected, worker road in place.

Turn 1 3950 BC Build Athens on the river delta, start warrior. We see coast everywhere except north.

Slider to 0.10.1. Pottery in 16. No food bonuses in the 21 tile city space. This is going to be a slow start. Change my mind. I can't believe we are going to meet no one when we start scouting. I think from F10 there are at least two expansionists out there - Zulus and Arabs - to provide pottery. No Japan, so we could try for wheel, or we could go for writing en route for maps. Decide to try for Wheel (32 turns).

How wrong could I be?

Turn 7 3650 BC warrior1 N, sees island? to west. Still on a narrow peninsula. We're going to have to get off here one way or another.
Turn 10 3500 BC worker starts road. warrior2 E to explore coasts. warrior1 NW, sees northern end of island. We are alone!

Here's a list of recorded highlights from my turn log covering research, contacts, trades and a wonder:

Turn 22 2900 BC Wheel complete, start Pottery. Athens completes barracks->warrior.
Turn 30 2550 BC Pottery complete, start Writing at 60% for break-even.
Turn 56 1600 BC Writing complete, start Map Making at 70%
Turn 78 1050 BC Complete Map Making, start Literature at 5.4.1. 35 turns
Turn 80 1000 BC
QSC Status:
5 cities, pop 12
15 warriors, 4 workers, 1 galley, 3 barracks, 1 granary.
No contacts
Techs: bronze+alpha+wheel+pottery+writing+MM.

Turn 96 630 BC Complete Literature, start Code of Laws. Complete Great Lighthouse in Athens.

Turn 102 510 BC
Suicide galley meets Egypt. She is polite, has contacts with Babs and zulus, and masonry, warrior code, burial, iron working at least. She has only three cities+Thebes! We have no cash. Switch off sliders and return with 24gpt. We can have contact with the Zulus+TM for literature+WM+4gpt. OK.
Zulus are polite, have contact with Babs and the same techs. 6 cities+Zimbabwe. He will give contact with Babs+TM for Lit+WM+10+2gpt. OK.
Babs has 7 cities+Babylon, the same techs+philosophy. Sell him WM for TM+36 gold. Buy Philosophy for Lit+7gpt+8 gold.
Buy iron working from Egypt for Phil+11 gold. we have iron on an offshore one tile island east of Corinth.
Buy warrior code+burial from Zulus for philosophy straight.
They all have masonry, mysticism, HBR.
Set sliders 6.2.2, CoL in 18 at break even.

Turn 107 410 BC
Galley makes contact with Persia. Annoyed, contact with rome, arabs, carthage. 11 cities+Persepolis. Sell him Lit+WM for Rome+27+TM
Rome cautious, same techs as Persia, 6 cities+Rome. Sell Lit+WM for Arabs+TM+28 gold.
Arabs annoyed, same techs, 10 cities+Mecca. Buy carthage for Lit+WM+12 gold.
Carthage polite, 8 cities+Carthage, sell Lit+WM for all the techs+WM+26 gold.

Decide to maintain a monopoly on communications between the two groups if possible.
Zulus buy WM for Maths+WM+36
Sell WM to Babs for WM+114 gold
Sell WM to Egypt for WM+26
Egypt/Babs/Zulu are now down CoL. Zulu have 47 gold, the other two are broke.
Rome is at parity and broke.
Persia has Poly and Construction. No deal on Construction.
Carthage has Poly and Republic. No deal on Republic.
Arabs have Poly. Sell Arabs WM for WM+63
We have 347 gold. Slider to 0.9.1 for Currency in 12 turns at -19gpt

Turn 112 310 BC
Carthage will sell Construction for 166+WM - much cheaper than Rome or Persia OK.
Arabs buy Construction for Poly+37. OK.
Sell zulus CoL for 78 gold+WM.

Turn 116 230 BC
Currency completed, start Engineering. We are Medieval and get Mono free.

I'm still not sure where this game is going to go. Here's my cute little civilization so far: