GOTM 49 Spoiler

[grigor]

OK, I will start this thread.

I was so excited to see restarts off on a normal map that I played on Feb 2! The early game went pretty well, and I got MPE in 1300 BC. I then got distracted and went for Seafaring to try the Explorer strategy - I don't think the terrain has enough huts to make that strategy pay. I would have ben better off going directly for Polytheism and stomping. For some reason, I didn't get all maps until 700BC, and then I played quickly and finished in:

x00 A.D.

This is a very fast game, and I have replayed it several times, with my best finish being 550BC. I think that Map Making before Trade will allow early expansion which speeds up the war effort tremendously. I also think that my decision to build caravans immediately upon the discovery of trade was a mistake - I should have made another round of settlers first.

A really elegant player (like, say, Xin Yu or Slow Thinker) might be able to squeeze a 1000 BC finish, with a few lucky hut results (AT or a Monarchy precursor).

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I have started playing aiming for a conquest. Restarts off make a space ship strategy quite risky.

I am quite behind due to some bad hut luck. First and third huts were empty. Getting an empty hut is quite rare; two out of first three is a first for me.

Second hut gave me a supported horseman at a time that my city was size 1 and already supporting a warrior. This cost me one shield a turn slowing my settler production.

Fourth hut gave me Mysticism, at a time I was researching towards Monarchy thus dealying that.

Fifth hut was the only good one: a None horse.

At -1000 I have 4 cities, each of either size 1 or 2, no wonders, and I am researching Trade.

 

[Peaster]

A really elegant player (like, say, Xin Yu or Slow Thinker) might be able to squeeze a 1000 BC finish, with a few lucky hut results (AT or a Monarchy precursor).

Grigor !! Civ2 geniuses never stop surprising me, but I don't think anyone could finish this by 1000BC. Has anyone EVER finished so early, starting from one settler, 50 years per turn ? As you said, this map is not ideal for hut-poppers, which is about the only way to go for such an early conquest. And this seemed like a fairly big map. Actually, I think your 550bc victory is really impressive, even as a replay.

I had good luck with huts, and had 9 cities by 1600bc. I built MPE+LH by about 900bc and sent the first boats out then. I made a typical dumb mistake - building MPE, and then forgetting to use it for about 300 years.
I planned the invasions OK, but lost 1-2 key battles and had to rely on back-up units. I finshed in

x50 B.C.

where x is far less than 10... or even 5.

 

[grigor]

It seems that the first hut being an advanced tribe is the most important luck in finishing before 500BC. With an AT, I got monarchy in 2850BC. Even getting 50g (which allows a size 1 settler) is noticably slower, yielding a 2250BC Monarchy. In a recent retry (of course with map knowldge), I finished in 375BC after a 50g first hut, but I had excess production at the end, so earlier finish must be possible.

I still have questions about the optimal tech order after Monarchy (which includes the off-tech) - Rush to Trade, then HB and Poly, then Maps, then Writing? Or perhaps Writing first so that dips can be built right away? Or maps first so that Triremes can be built and maps exchanged when we find various AI? There seems to be a slowness in th middle of all three plans. Also, the issue of how many settlers to build before total war is a question. On Prince level, Slow Thinker's ICS and Trade police seems unprofitable, as the trade benfits with the weak AI won't pay. But maybe the plan of papering the map with cities until about 1400BC is the fastest.

More answers to come.

 

[Peaster]

You aren't really trying for 1000BC are you ? Without a hut-strategy or a trade strategy, I don't see how anyone could produce enough shields to conquer that fast [ignoring issues like tech, finding the AI, etc]. I got 2 AT's and used the "papering with cities" strategy, with mostly-unguarded cities to accelerate growth, and am happy with the results.

If all the battles had gone my way, I MIGHT have conquered around 500BC, but no sooner. Did you skip the LH ? That might save a few turns, but it seems pretty risky if you haven't seen the map. Anyway, I am interested to see what you can do.

I don't think the tech order after Monarchy matters too much. I prefer trade and maps fairly early, and writing fairly late. In a quick game, you can probably raise taxes after writing.

@Ali - Good luck with your conquest !

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I still have questions about the optimal tech order after Monarchy (which includes the off-tech) - Rush to Trade, then HB and Poly, then Maps, then Writing? Or perhaps Writing first so that dips can be built right away? Or maps first so that Triremes can be built and maps exchanged when we find various AI? There seems to be a slowness in th middle of all three plans.

I will go for Writing as quickly as possible regardless of my strategy because:
1. Diplomats have no maintenance cost regardless of your government.
2. You may need them at any time for bribery.
3. They can protect my empty cities from enemy walking in.
4. Third row becomes available for partial rush buying.

 

[Peaster]

For early conquest, the key is to get your first flotillas out ASAP. To me, that means poly and mapmaking ASAP. I can't see why the order for those two matters much, unless you need ele's for defense, or unless you can build MPE before getting mapmaking (so that getting AI maps might be delayed). I am not SURE that building wonders quickly is important, but it seems to help in my games, so I usually want trade/vans soon after monarchy (unless going for seafaring/explorers/huts).

Solo suggested going for techs that you cannot get by early trading with the AI. I have not used this idea much, but you could try it.

 

[ElephantU]

Despite my warning, chalk me up as a masochist... I wandered about 1500 years till I found a decent OCC spot north of the English. Made contact with Vikings and Aztecs and managed to keep them from contacting each other as well. A road and then a rail "critical path" made three trade routes to London grow to +35 each after SuperHighways! More than a dozen techs researched in one turn each in the mid game. My One City was Supreme for short periods several times, ending up around size 29. Landing in 1x55AD with all civs still Cordial or Enthusiastic.

 

[grigor]

Ha! I finally squeezed out a severely tainted 1050BC conquest - not only knowing the location of all AI but also reloading huts in the beginning to give the lucky start I needed. With the revealed map, MPE is not necessary and I built no wonders. What is necessary is the path: Map Making - Horseback Riding - Polytheism in order to be able to crank out units. I maximized arrows for much of the early game and after the first hut AT (not that much of a surprise, in any case), I got to Monarchy by 2650 with the off tech of map making. I think it might be possible to get it by 2850 with arrow maximization, but the growth would suffer unduly. By the time I got Polytheism in 2200BC, I had already sent of a trireme with a settler and a horse toward the Mongols. The idea of sending out settlers early to make colonies near the AI was an intergral part of Slow Thinker's incredible conquest strategy in the Apolyton forum. The English and Mongols were taken out with units from colonies, and the vikings by a task force of two elephants which departed in 2000BC. The colonist for the English (and eventually Aztec) conquest walked to his position.

Even without detailed map knowledge, the plan of sending out settlers or war parties in three directions must be good. Those early explorers also tip huts, with changeable results. At Prince level, with Barbarians at Restless Tribes, the danger is minimized. In a real game, MPE will be necessary to reveal AI location before serious conquest work can be done. But it seems to take only 2 elephants to take out an AI on Prince level, because the counterattack is so weak even if the first attack is not totally successful. I preferred to use 2 elephants and a horse.

 

[Peaster]

Grigor - I am still skeptical that anyone could conquer so early in a real game. But you accomplished some things I didn't think were likely.

1) Using colonies so effectively - the AI tends to attack and destroy mine before I can strengthen them. This happens to maybe 1 colony in 3 [playing MGE, at peace with the AI, placing the colony 2-3 squares away]. Did you take any special precautions? Or maybe doing it super-early helps?

2) Without rush builds, a colony might take 40 turns to produce 2 vet ellies. ST's main idea was using trade routes to gather tons of gold by about 800BC to speed this up. So, assuming you rush-built a lot, how did you pay ?

I got about 600g from tribute in my game [which was longer and included MPE] and nothing from huts or trade. I probably spent half that on boats and vans.

3) My conquest of the Mongols [2 cities] and the Vikings [4 cities] required about 4-5 ellies each. They didn't just roll over. How did you manage with 2 + horse? Do you remember how many cities/units the AI's had? Did you use vets? Dips? Also - how many cities did you build? And how many units did you have at the end?

I have tried sending out boats before MPE/LH a few times, without very good results. I seemed to have bad luck in finding AI's and safe sea routes. I don't do a lot of black-clicking. Any comments on this?

 

[grigor]

Colonies:

I follow the shore with my triremes and do not take the chance of foundering. On this map that was possible. With more water it would not work as well - one would have to wait for LH - but by that time the navy should be fully ready to go. I don't place my cities as close to the AI as you were suggesting. For the Mongol colony, I had an extra nomad, so I founded both on the island offshore from the Mongols and on a beachhead 3 trireme turns away. By te time each had made an Elephant I was ready to go. I unload and fight in the same turn, which works if there are no walls or other defensive improvements (river). If the AI city is on a river, it takes more ellies, and some of them had better be Vet.
For the English, I founded before the choke point, and my horse became a vet soon enough to repel attacks when fortified on a forest. Usually both ellies win; one is healed automatically from entering the city, and the other has to rest for a while. Occasionally I lose an ellie, but the horse can take out the wounded defender, and the AI civ often does not have enough cash to rush a defender. Often, at Prince level, they attack out of the city, which is almost always a losing proposition.

2. Of course I rush build. Trade is not an option at Prince level, because of the pathetic AI ciies. I made sure to place cities for shields. In this game, one of the home cities was placed on the pheasant, and it worked another forest unless I was maximizing shields when it worked ocean. When it got to size 2 it was making 6 shields per turn, which means 6 turns for an ellie or trireme if you pre-rushbuy the first row of warriors. I used the strategy of gifting the AI to worshpful and trading maps at the first encounter; I also asked for tribute and started getting some by around 1300BC. Most of the actual conquering took place at the last minute, as per your guide to early conquest. So with a shield-rich home base and the odd tribute/extra loot from captured cities, I was able to keep up with the schedule pretty easily. I got a few coins, units, tribes, and nomads from huts, too.

3. As you will see, my attack strategy was very lean and depended on Prince Level and the resultant idiotic AI play.
The Vikes and Mongols both had 2 cities - I took the non-capital first. I knew (becase they asked for it) that the Vikings did not have Bronze Working, so 2 ellies were well up to the task of smashing cities held by warriors. I used a 3rd for entering te Mongol city, and one elephant died in the last assault. The Aztecs had one city, and it only needed two ellies as well, though I had a horse in near proximity in case I had to start over. Those were the same three units that took out the English, one of them gaining vet status in the process. The Romans fell to home units, and I used 4 of them tough onl 3 were necessary. They were very banged up after the sack of Rome, but the AI attacked my vet horse out of Veii and lost, emptying the city and making my life easier.
The defense of the homeland was quite bare, and that was pretty much it for units at the end of the game ( I am away from my game computer right now so I can't check until later). am guessing about 13 units - 4 triremes, 7 ellies, 3 horse. I also had some caravans but didn't get to use them.

Mostly I am satisfied that sending attack details early (and including settlers) is the optimum strategy for early conquest, as opposed to going for trade first. At deity, one may need to slow up for HG, because some of the task forces will turn up extra cities which mke srious happiness problems. But at prince, this seems conclusive.

 

[Peaster]

Grigor - Thanks for the explanation. I think you have set the record for conquering with the smallest number of units !! Approx 100 units at the end is average, at least for Deity level. But the fewer, the better, IMO.

I didn't mean to suggest placing colonies very close to the AI, like ST did. I seems too dangerous [at least with MGE], and I agree with your placement. Interesting that you made 2 colonies for the Mongols. I assume they were sent on the same boat, which means they were unprotected for a while. No problem for a restless-tribes barb setting, I guess.

Experiences such as this teach us that "lean is good" for EC. But I wonder if one can play this way (no wonders, few units, even fewer vets) in real games. I hope you will test this idea more and let us know.

 

[grigor]

I have loaded my save to check some stats. First of all, the conquest date is
** 1150 BC**.
I have 20 units; 4 warriors (all in home cities), 1 archer (from a hut), 4 Horse, 7 elephant, 3 trireme. I am building 4 caravans.

In a real game, there would not be such hut luck, nor would expeditions without goal necessarily bear fruit. However, it is interesting to see what is possible with everything going the best it can. If the conquest is to be even 500 years later, the number of units to conquer each civ must be increased. MPE would have come as a matter of course in my game by about 950BC. I think that 750BC is very realistic in this game played as a "real" game (played for the first time), if the first hut happens to be a tribe; and if not, 350BC would be a good resutl.

 

[Tanstaafl]

In the very first steps, after founding your first city, what do you build? Choices are limited. I am playing the game for a second time and doing things differently. I am focusing on getting to the other civs quickly, so I'm researched Alphabet first and now Map Making. I tipped one hut and got Warrior Code and a second got me a Horseman. After that I founded the city at the site with two buffalos and fish. I built a Warrior and now am building a Settler. Knowing some things after playing the game the first time makes it more difficult to be honestly objective but I want to try and improve my speed of conquest.

 

[grigor]

Tanstaff -

After founding the first city, I build a warrior to explore. I then build a settler. Barbs will not come until 3150BC, and I hope to have my first settler by then. If circumstances allow (gold from a hut, an archer or chariot from a hut, a site with a forest) I will try to build the settler before the city raches size 2. [This is not available at chieftan level, but at the upper levels the designers allowed your first city settler build a second settler without disbanding if there are no other cities founded. A second city from a hut will change this plan.] Depending on the barb setting and the difficulty level, I then build warriors for defence and/or happiness control and then build settlers as fast as I can.

My initial research goal is to get to Monarchy as soon as possible. I start with Alphabet, then Ceremonial Burial, and Code of Laws. Because the techs are offered in three groups, the next tech will have to be out of sequence to Monarchy, and in this game it is a good idea to research Map Making so as to have some triremes to build for exploration and foreign settlement. Some players like Horseback Riding as the 'off-tech' which leads to a fast Polytheism and the early elephant stomp; others prefer Bronze Working followd by Currency and Trade. If too many techs are received from huts, Monarchy will be severely delayed, with dramatic slowing effect on your civilization. So after I receive one tech from a hut, (which would count as the off-tech) I steel myslf to abjure opening any huts before Monarchy.

That is the basic start philosophy. Various game paramaters often cause corrections or changes to it.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Grigor,
That helps a lot. I never knew that a single city could build a settler without disbanding. I had a clue about the delay to Monarchy by tipping too many huts but hadn't thought of it for a while. I, too, believe that getting to Monarchy quickly is essential in having cities produce well and keeping order.

In a game for conquest do you continue to expand your civilization by building lots of cities with your settlers or do you share your building in new cities between settlers and fighting units?

 

[Tanstaafl]

One other question...
Besides going for Lighthouse and Marco Polo's Embassy as the first Wonders to build and start conquest, would you build Pyramids or the Great Wall?

 

[grigor]

Pyramids is an interesting choice. Most of the better players don't use it, but there have been some excellent uses of it, especially by Slow Thinker in his fabulous arly landing game. At advanced happiness levels, your cities seem to grow too fast to keep up with the revolts. What I really like to do is let the AI build it (usually by about 450BC) and then capture it.

Great Wall is never necessary unless the AI is about to build it first. Even then it is only a distraction. There are two ways to deal with an AI with Great Wall: (1) caoture the city it is in (expensive in terms of units) and (2) wait until you discover Metallurgy, wich renders it obsolete.

 

[Old n Slow]

I think we elected Murphy as VP for the republic after he was the scout.

Knowing that this was going to be a short month (my next two weekends are shot), I opted for the OCC. After striking SW, I popped a hut for Currency (nice but not nice enough) & planted my one city to work a whale. (and later four hills! Argh -- but the best of the limited choice I allowed myself.)

I sent my one searcher around the pole for...little value.

After getting the required wonders (almost lost Copes!), I watched the relations slip with three of the four civs (Aztecs were wiped out early by their neighbors, the Vikes.) -- so much so that they wanted cash instead of techs. Oh well. I've been at war for half the game with the English and Vikes.

Eventually I terraformed three of the hills into shielded grass; have since terraformed one of the plains back into hills & am working on another (and yes after extensive play I now can see Elephant's nice location.)

I'm in the late stages of the game right now (73 techs; Mongols have 40) No threat at all for date of launch.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

As usual I started early, left the game for a while, and then had to do a marathon session this past weekend to finish it up.

Early bad hut luck slowed me down quite a bit. I still stuck to my conquest strategy but at a slow pace. I chocked off the English just North of London and went on exploring. Soon (-450) I found Aztecs and exchanged maps with them which also allowed me to see where the Vikings are. At this point I would have switched away from building Marco if I could help it. But the only other useful wonder for my strategy was Pyrmaids which I did not have the right tech to build. So I built Marco as my first wonder in -375. Pyramids followed soon after and was done in +60.

As soon as I got Monotheism I built barracks and started producing crusaders the first of which were ready in +60. I was already at war with English at this point in time. I switched from defense to offense and finished them off in +290.

By this time I was already at war with Vikings so I moved on to them and finished them off in +580.

At this point I had to make a strategic decision. Should I go after Romans who just broke off their alliance with me and who have 5 cities. Or after Aztecs who are peaceful but closeby and also have 5 cities. Or Mongols with whom I am at war with but are also my biggest trading partner and have Chivalry and Feudalism which I do not; not to mention 8 cities.

I decided to go after Romans and Aztecs at the same time. Both civilizations were destroyed in +820.

I sent some units over to Mongolia meanwhile and put some fortified musketeers next to Karakorum: one on a mountain and one on arable land. Mongols went crazy trying to kill these units and meanwhile my crusaders kept on attacking Karakorum which had no city walls but was defended by pikemen. Even after acquiring the needed tech the Mongols did not build a city wall in Karakorum which really surprised me (could this be because of the prince level?)

Karakorum was finally destroyed in +930 and with it went several very good trade routes. Next Oedo year I switched to Republic in hopes of buying off the rest of the Mongol empire. I set Luxuries to 40% and widespread celebrations followed.

Nishapur, which had Colossus (another oddity in this game; I do not recall Mongols ever building Colossus), was purchased for 688. Soon after senate signed a peace deal with Mongols. Their remaining cities were too expensive to subvert.

I dismissed the government in +1020 and used to opportunity to capture Bokhara and raze Ormuz. Republic was reestablished in +1030. By +1050 I captured Tabriz, razed Kashgar, and bought Aleppo. Mongols were down to 2 cities: Samarkand which had Sun Tzu and was a great trading partner, and Basra which I yet had to find.

Next turn I found Basra and razed it. I immediately started disbanding unneeded Crusaders and the turn after I switched to Democracy. The goal was to build the empire up for a while before buying off Samarkand. Research went towards Navigation for Magellan, Theology for Bach, Explosives for Engineers, and finally Refrigeration.

Mongols built Khanbalyk and Khorasan in this period. The first one I razed. The second one I let be. Barbarians took over one of my major cities which I bought back the next turn for just under 500g. They also razed a city I got late in the game from an Advanced tribe.

When research reached railroad I set science rate to zero not wanting to expire my Hanging Gardens (which Vikings built).

In +1310 Samarkand was subverted for 2x833g. In +1410 Khorasan was subverted for 2x112g to end the game.