Gotm 60 Spoiler

[Ace]

Andu,

IIRC, Industrialization sounds right for the A.I. getting really nasty. Your right about gunpowder, too. I used to try to keep it out of A.I. hands to avoid it getting musketeers, but once I realized the effect it had on the hostility rating, I started gifting it right away. It does seem to ease the "rage" the A.I. has toward the human player.

That is a neat trick with the Eiffel Tower. Nice to know. I always figured it was only good for the 20 points after reading about Oedo Years.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Well, I finally finished. I think it has taken over 2 weeks since I launched the stupid SS. I was going along better than I expected, rampaging over the IS and Chinese doing my normal post-launch score-inflation expansion, but I guess I just got too greedy regarding score.

I had worked my way across N. africa and finally made my way to Alexandria and Cairo to get its 2 wonders and the 40 points that come with them. It was November 2012 - I had only 1 full turn left before my landing. I had taken a number of IS cities and had no trouble at all up to that point, but that turn the IS nuked Alexandria, Cairo and a city in China. That gave me a ton of pollution (not to mention about 20-30 population points lost) with no time left to clean up and recover. It took almost 200 points off my final score. Disappointing to say the least.

 

[Andu Indorin]

I had taken a number of IS cities and had no trouble at all up to that point, but that turn the IS nuked Alexandria, Cairo and a city in China. ... Disappointing to say the least.

Drag!

By any chance, did you notice any correlation between the "target value" (# of units/city size) of those cities and the experience of golem and myself in our games (page 2 of this thread)?

 

[Andu Indorin]

I find this a very insteresting subject. ...
But I know that IF you exchange them Fundie ( i.e ) with Europe or USA , ( on the first turn ) then both will attack you on the second turn...Why ??

... So does the Space Flight advance create a different outcome ?
Does the AI consider that Apollo, or space flight can be a trigger to declare war ?

As to the first question, as NAs you have contending territory with both the EU and US (as well as China). By giving them Fundy, have you encouraged them to initiate a revolution to switch to Fundy? And if so, are they in that always unreliable state of Anarchy when they attack you?

On the second question, it's been my experience that the Space Flight advance does not in itself trigger a deterioration in relations with the AI civs. But building SS parts can result in deterioration in said relations -- which is why I consider it prudent to build the SS as fast as possible. Perhaps Apollo counts as an SS part in this respect if you are the one that has built it.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Drag!

By any chance, did you notice any correlation between the "target value" (# of units/city size) of those cities and the experience of golem and myself in our games (page 2 of this thread)?

Yes and no.

First, it is my understanding that, once it has nukes, the AI can nuke any city within 16 squares of any of its cities, regardless of whether that city actually houses the nuke (or whether it has a clear path to that city. They just "appear" at the target) The first IS city I took was Kuala Lumpur which was bigger than any of the cities they eventually nuked, and certainly within range from the Indonesian cities. One thing on that turn, I moved some of the units 2 squares from the city in case it was nuked, so there were fewer units in the city itself (probably 4 or 5 if memory serves me).

I took other chinese cities that were probably comparable in size to Alexandria, but again, I probably didn't leave as many units in them as I did in Egypt. Because they hadn't nuked me yet, I had sent a fairly large force to take the two cities (bribe one, but conquer the other) and potentially move on to other cities on the last turn. I also had a number of Stealths come up from Ethiopia to clean out the partisans, so both cities had a large number of high attack units. They were obvious high-value targets. The city they hit in china was size 10 or so, but I think it only had 4 units in it. I'm not sure why they picked it over some other places.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

As to the first question, as NAs you have contending territory with both the EU and US (as well as China). By giving them Fundy, have you encouraged them to initiate a revolution to switch to Fundy? And if so, are they in that always unreliable state of Anarchy when they attack you?

On the second question, it's been my experience that the Space Flight advance does not in itself trigger a deterioration in relations with the AI civs. But building SS parts can result in deterioration in said relations -- which is why I consider it prudent to build the SS as fast as possible. Perhaps Apollo counts as an SS part in this respect if you are the one that has built it.

In OCC games I have learned to shut down all diplomatic discussions once I get Space flight because it turns so quickly. However, in OCC you have Apollo the next turn and a SS part the turn after that, so your observation may very well be correct. I almost never have much separation between SF and the first SS Part, but something around that time turns them against you big time.

 

[Peaster]

Condolences, Tim. It seems this scenario is full of pitfalls.

I'm at Jan'12 of my replay for conquest and expect to finish in approx August - if global warming doesn't stop me. I've been nuked about 6-8 times, I guess, and that's probably too much. IIRC the target city always had at least 6 units nearby, as golem suggested. I don't have any evidence yet for Uruwashi's conjecture that the AI prefers to nuke the last city taken.

My MO is to build RRs in/out of the city and to remove the defenders with 2 Howies. That's already about 6 units left near the city to attract a nuke, plus 1 more unit inside to defend. And I tend to forget the AI has nukes. In hindsight, I should probably use pre-charged engineers and retreat each Howie after one attack. Instead, the idea of building SDI's near the front lines seems too slow. I haven't intentionally set any SDI-traps, but that might also improve my MO.

I also tried Uruwashi's invasion MO; remove SAMs, then attack with stealth fighters. It usually worked well, but I lost a few planes and spies that way, and I find that my fighters are mostly wounded most of the time (eg from killing partisans). Maybe building more of them would make this MO sustainable. Certainly it doesn't attract as many nukes.

Playing the NANs, instead of USA, might have reduced some transportation problems, but I have conquered three of the NAN capitols already, and don't expect major problems getting to Australia/etc.

 

[Andu Indorin]

Yes and no.

First, it is my understanding that, once it has nukes, the AI can nuke any city within 16 squares of any of its cities, regardless of whether that city actually houses the nuke (or whether it has a clear path to that city. They just "appear" at the target) The first IS city I took was Kuala Lumpur which was bigger than any of the cities they eventually nuked, and certainly within range from the Indonesian cities. One thing on that turn, I moved some of the units 2 squares from the city in case it was nuked, so there were fewer units in the city itself (probably 4 or 5 if memory serves me).

Correlating that with my experience -- the Indian Civ's preemptive strike against Kuala Lampur -- this does suggest that city size is part of the equation. I had four units in it when the strike occurred, that is, roughly the same amount of units as in your instance; but my population would have been 1 citizen larger than yours (due to your conquest), assuming that the AI did not install aquaduct/sewer.

I took other chinese cities that were probably comparable in size to Alexandria, but again, I probably didn't leave as many units in them as I did in Egypt. Because they hadn't nuked me yet, I had sent a fairly large force to take the two cities (bribe one, but conquer the other) and potentially move on to other cities on the last turn. I also had a number of Stealths come up from Ethiopia to clean out the partisans, so both cities had a large number of high attack units. They were obvious high-value targets. The city they hit in china was size 10 or so, but I think it only had 4 units in it. I'm not sure why they picked it over some other places.

On the Chinese city, did you by any chance have any engineers working the adjacent squares that might have brought the total up to six? That seemed to be the critical factor in determining the AI's choice of target in the two later attacks I suffered; units immediately outside the city bringing the total of units in the "blast zone" up to six.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

It appears my memory is failing me. I just looked and the chinese city city (Changsa) was size 10, with 6 units plus one more next to the city, so it was more inviting than I remembered

Of course the previous turn, Hong Kong was size 11 with 6 units in it and a unit next to it and nobody touched it. In fact the Indians launched 3 nukes at Fuzhou (protected by a nearby SDI) which was size 10 and only had 4 units plus one adjacent, leaving Hong Kong alone even though it had more people and more units, so it's definitely not just a simple Units+People type algorithm.

I was really pressing my luck, so I got what I deserved. Alexandria was a huge target with 11 citizens and 12 units in and around it. Cairo only had 7 units (none adjacent after the Alexandria nuke) and was size 10, but it had the wonders in it, so that may factor into it too.

 

[Andu Indorin]

Not really expecting too simple of an algorithm. But it may be possible to come up with reasonably educated guess as to when and where an AI will exercise its throw-weight -- mainly as way saving $$$ on SDI's.

And I, too, was wondering whether or not Wonders might be a factor in the equation ... Were there any Fouzhou?

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Not really expecting too simple of an algorithm. But it may be possible to come up with reasonably educated guess as to when and where an AI will exercise its throw-weight -- mainly as way saving $$$ on SDI's.

And I, too, was wondering whether or not Wonders might be a factor in the equation ... Were there any Fouzhou?

No Wonders

 

[Peaster]

I finally finished my replay. Highlights:

Conquest with USA in May 2012 (29 turns).
Trade dwindled by late 2011, but my Fundy budget was OK.
Attacking MO = Howies+Eng's, with help from St.Fi's + spies + boats.
Communism for vet spies was not successful.
My anti-nuke strategy (no crowding) was too hard to implement.
The NAN's were toughest b/c of the 4 caps and their spread.

As far as I know, Uruwashi's landing and golem's conquest this month are the shortest official games in gotm history. Anybody know of other games under 40 turns ?