Gotm 60 Spoiler

[Ali Ardavan]

Andu Indorin, I am amazed at your game. I cannot believe no one attacked you, even after launching. You built no SDIs and you were left with little defense. Unbelievable. Great job.

 

[Peaster]

Thanks for the log, Andu. Very impressive planning in a setting which makes that difficult (at least for me). You also have a great knack for manipulating the AI !

I have the 2.42, why will be easier to create outposts??
What are the advantages and disadvantages of 2.42 and MGE

With MGE, the AI seems to have no memory of good relations. So it can turn hostile quickly, and it sneak attacks more. IIRC from my MGE game, I built outposts in Europe and China during peacetime, and paid for airports, but the AIs sneak attacked and razed them within 2 turns. Maybe I should have built them a little further from AI cities, like your Canary Island one.

I can't think of any advantage of MGE for gotm's. Except it's easy to keep a spotless reputation, because you can get the AI to declare war. This might be useful with restarts on. I slightly prefer the MGE interface, so I use it for everything but gotms, and even for gotms sometimes.

Golem reported a govt change in June ??

Maybe I misunderstood golem. He didn't give a month-by-month report, so maybe his change was actually in April. BTW - As USA I had SoL [which is pretty new to me], and I changed in oedo years, but still had short periods of anarchy, I think. Disappointing, but I guess that's how it is.

I dont use Howies, until railroads are built, then Howies can travel several tiles and be effective. When I capture a city ( If a Spy Bribes it ) I immediatly dismantle most of the Obsolete units ( Rifleman, Fighters in this game ) and keep the conquered city with 2 or 3 Units and start a SDI, ( I do not rush it )
IF I dont get Nuked, next turn I will finish the SDI

Good point. RRs usually allow Howies to attack twice per turn, or retreat
after attacking, reducing the odds of a nuke. I have many engineers in my replay, intended for RRs, but they aren't well coordinated yet (they've arrived from USA in ones and twos...).

This is my MO using a couple of stealths and a Spy
Spy will investigate the city and find if is a SAM, IF is a SAM then will try to destroy it. If The spy does not suceed, then Missiles are used to destroy Armor. For instance on my Conquest game ( Im still playing it ..) Toronto and Montreal had 3 Stealths each , plus 2 spys and a paratrooper, New York had 6 defensive units ( armor , 2 rifleman, 2 missiles , 1 Marine ) and NO SAM.

I guess the USA is short on SAMs, but the cities I am attacking (as USA) all seem to have them. Anyway, your MO seems very reasonable, and it doesn't leave a large pile of units exposed after the attack, even if the target city is not under SDI. So I am putting this on my list of methods to try out!

I am not sure about using missiles on SAM cities, though. Why not use Howies ? Similar cost/probability and they usually survive to attack again.

Because the AI will launch an attack on the last city conquered ( New York ) and New York is covered by the SDI Montreal Umbrella.
I have played games in which the AI will launch several Nukes to the last city conquered.

I never noticed this, but will pay attention now. If you are right, this will be a huge help in planning attacks.

I can't remember a GOTM that held our collective interest this long (maybe #50 or #58... which were also big/modern games).

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

TIM: " I also forgot about the trade impact of Airports on delivery bonuses. I was focusing on 1 and 3 until midway through the game when I started seeing certain cities hit really big payouts while similar sized cities going almost the exact same distance did not "

Tim, I am sure you know that Caravans have a financial Impact if you delivered to another continent, another Civ, and IF the Goods are in demand. Distance has an effect, again, and size of receiving city. But are we really correct ...??
....I tried a few options ..and here is what I came up with...and I am still unsure how it works ....

The trade payout calculations are known. I even have a spreadsheet I got at Apolyton (there's a link to the thread in the GL Index) that will pretty reliably give you the payout if you know all the factors. (Sometimes you just have to make an educated guess at some of them). Distance is a big factor. Freight=2x camel. The multipliers for demanded goods are known. An airport in BOTH cities will double the payout, as will delivering to a foreign civ. Delivering to a different continent is I believe a 50% boost. I think you get a 50% boost for each superhighway in either source or destination city. Having cities on the same continent connected by roads or RR (on the route that the AI uses which is not always the route you would choose) will increase the bonus. Discovering various techs decreases payouts. the final payout is also usually capped at 2/3 of the beaker cost of the currently researched technology.

The size of the city does not directly factor into the payouts. What matters is the "base trade" of the two cities (which often has a correlation to city size, but not always). By this, I mean the number of trade arrows the cities produce minus the arrows from existing trade routes. (BTW: This means Superhighways give you 2 boosts to your payouts: extra trade in the city for each roaded square used thus increaseing the base calculation, plus the additional 50% boost on the bonus calculation). Because it is based on trade arrows, the government of the target civ matters - delivering to Republic or Demo will generally pay more than similar size and distance cities in fundy or communism because of the extra trade arrows. Demo is best, because the trade of Republic cities is eroded by corruption.

When making deliveries, you can manipulate payouts somewhat by temporarily moving all workers in your city (both cities, if domestic trade) to high-trade squares (even if it puts you in sheild or food shortage), making the delivery, then moving the workers back to their normal squares. Just don't forget that last part or you could starve your city or get units disbanded.

When estimating foreign trade deliveries, if I haven't recently investigated the city, I often look at the city size, and the terrain, and what I know of the way the AI tends to place it's workers and I estimate the number of trade arrows and use that in my calculations. With foreign cities I haven't investigated, I have to guess about Airports based on past deliveries, what I've seen of other cities in that civ, and in general how developed/advanced they are. In general I assume there is none unless I have a really good reason to think there is one there. Airports are more of a factor in my decisions on domestic deliveries where I know what is in each city. (In this game, I had run out of foreign demand for a lot of goods towards the end, but could still get decent payouts by delivering them to domestic demand cities.

 

[Andu Indorin]

Andu Indorin, I am amazed at your game. I cannot believe no one attacked you, even after launching. You built no SDIs and you were left with little defense. Unbelievable. Great job.

To put it more correctly, I left myself no defense. But I never considered the R.F., the I.S., India, and China to be a credible threat for an attack. Apart from the N.A.s, only the Europeans -- and only with nuclear missile from Lisbon -- were capable of launching an significant attack. (Assuming, of course, the AI doesn't employ its "anti-grav" capability ...) Hence the judiciousness of maintaining equitable relations with the Europeans.

Now I must admit, I'm tempted to play the game again with MGE and see if I my diplomatic talents are up to the task.

 

[Ace]

Good luck! Your gonna need it in MGE. As soon as your SS lifts off, your "enthusastic allies" will hate you and sneak attack.

 

[URUWASHI]

THis is such a great Map. Such a beautiful game ....
I can not get enough, Andu's conquest in 2010 is amazing.
I been thinking if a conquest by the NA could be possible in the same time frame . But it has to be almost perfect game play....
I downloaded game 61 , have not look at it, except for the rules..but I am still addicted to game 60....
I have been playing on my Mind.....can the NA launch a ship and land before 2010??
I have some great ideas....Can they work??
Sure my wife is gonna kill me...LOL...is her birthday tomorrow and Im sitting by the old computer trying to beat a silly game !!
OHHHHH WELLLLL. I better take her for Brunch Tomorrow.
Wish Old La Fayette was here...., Its OK Im probably the oldest one here anyhow...

 

[Ali Ardavan]

(Assuming, of course, the AI doesn't employ its "anti-grav" capability ...)

What is anti-grav capability?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I finished early yesterday morning and submitted a few minutes ago.

I played as Europeans. 33s8c3m ship landed in June of 2013. Quite a mediocre result.

I started with careful review and planing. My biggest mistake was not realizing how low my delivery payments to Asia and Africa would be. Even deliveries between mainland Europe and the British isles were low. I hit the ground running producing freights but ran out of steam very quickly.

At that point I should have realized my mistake and draw up new plans.
Instead I just kept going. The result was a dragged out mediocre game.

Non-Aligned built Apollo in Sep 2011. I had some preparationa and jumped into the race. Most rivals did the same thing. Americans were the first to launch in July 2012 with a 15s3c1m ship that needed 15 turns to arrive. I had a bigger ship at that point. I launced a much faster ship 2 months later. Non-Aligned were the only other nation who launched (in early 2013) but did so too late to catch mine.

Right before launch I got into a war with Russians. I took over Minsk. They offered peace; I accepted. After laucnh they sneak attacked me twice. First time they tried to nuke Lisbon (what is it about this city, Americans nuked it once too) but this time I had it under the SDI umbrella of Madrid. So Russians ended up losing 3 Nuke missiles. They offered peace before I had a chance to take any of their cities and senate forced it on me.

The second time the Russians attacked Athens and killed its defender but failed to take it (it is strange coincidence that Moslems did the exact same thing sometime in 2010). This time they did not offer peace, but I did not want to risk taking over some of their cities (all heavily fortified and with City walls and SAMs) and streching my defenses thin a turn before my ship was due to arrive. So I just let them go.

The only unexpired wonder I made was Hoover. After launch I made all the expired ones for score, except Leo.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

What is anti-grav capability?

I assume this as a sarcastic reference to the AI's ability to keep aircraft aloft indefinitely without the need for silly things like fuel. However, I am pretty sure they do not apply this 'technology' to nukes.

 

[Andu Indorin]

What is anti-grav capability?

Tim's got it right -- though I prefer term "witty" to "sarcastic" . (I remember playing on the World map way, way back when, and I hadn't installed any patches yet. I had a BB take significant damage making an attack on Tokyo in Japan. So I put it under the protection of Stealth Bombers as limped back to the US at two squares per turn. And I'll be damned but an entire hoard of Cruise Missiles followed me all the way, two squares per turn. ...)

So, I tried the Americans again at MPE. And with the benefit of experience, instead attacking the problem in terms of easiest and safest path of least resistence, I decided that a more ambitious approach was feasible. I made and held alliances with both the NAs and the EU; ran 8 reasonably safe freight to Europe, plus I managed ten freight to the Far East. And thanks to Elephant U's trick -- that I had long forgotten -- I economized with the Food Freight --> Wonder --> SS part routine. End result: AC in Nov. 2010, and this time actually had a few military units left over, as well significantly more infrastructure. And not one attack against me.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Amazing result, Andu. In my game, playing Europeans, I made an alliance with Americans for the same purpose. As soon as my first freight stepped off a transport full of freight the Americans cancelled the alliance without making any demands and sent my ship back to Europe. Then they sent a huge Navy my way ... Russians and Moslems sneak attacked me several times without warning. Of those who could only Non-Aligned did not sneak attack me.

 

[URUWASHI]

AS I post it, decided to play the game two more times.
Once , to conquer and I achieved that in late 2013.
Suprisingly was not many nuclear attacks.
I took over Paris and New York in 2011, needed SOL and Eiffel Tower.
Chinese attacked me after I subverted Shangai, luckly I escaped unharmed.
I took over Beijing with a nuke, and then several spys ....Chinese never move their Capital city.
China was taken in 2 turns..then moves all my units to the Indian border.
India was taken in 3 turns....
Shifted half my forces to take Islam and other half to take over Russians ...
DEmanding tribute from Russia wipe their coffers.
I started to take 2 to 3 Russian cities at the time...mostly by bribes, a few by military.
By 2013 was only Europe , West US and some Islam cities in Africa.
I only lost 60 Units...

DEcided then to play EL as a NA for the second time.
I had the Carvan List..so I know where to trade on the get go..
January sold all Walls. Built several airports.Traded with chinese Democracy for space flight
February sold all SAM's...Built 3 more airports....Built Apollo and 1 more airport in Europe ( Zurich ), and 2 in Mainland China.
March , sold all courthouses, and turn into Fundie.( Built another airport in Europe , Andorra ), 7 Structurals Built
April sold all Cathedrals...8 Components Built
May , sold all Marketplaces, traded for superconductor, Built 3 Modules, and 4 Components, a few structurals.Fusion Power
June, all Temples sold, components and structurals Built , just needed 5 structurals to launch in June....!!
July, sold some airports, Temples and Harbors....launching end of JUly, SS departs ...arriving in January 2011.
November Europeans attack Bern , Bern Lost, Americans Attack Montreal.
January, Americans take Mexico City.
January Non Align Ship Lands in Alpha.
OK Game over.....lets start playing game 61 !!

 

[LordValuna]

Russians and Moslems sneak attacked me several times without warning.

Wouldnt have been much of a sneak attack if it came with a warning

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Good point, Lord Valuna! I should have said with no prior indication.

 

[Andu Indorin]

Amazing result, Andu. In my game, playing Europeans, I made an alliance with Americans for the same purpose. As soon as my first freight stepped off a transport full of freight the Americans cancelled the alliance without making any demands and sent my ship back to Europe. Then they sent a huge Navy my way ... Russians and Moslems sneak attacked me several times without warning. Of those who could only Non-Aligned did not sneak attack me.

That's rotten luck on your part, good luck on mine. By any chance, did you gift the Americans some cash in the turns prior to your intended freight bombard? Or was the game too far advanced to allow that possibility?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I did not gift them any cash. I did not expect that behavior and was suprised.

Actually this was the first time ever for me that an ally cancelled an alliance without first making a demand.

 

[Ace]

This seems to be standard practice in MGE. I have lost count of the times this has happened to me in mid to late game. After about AD 1000 (approx), its almost automatic for an ally to blow you off with no chance for you to save the alliance. And gifting does not seem to help at this stage of the game. I have gifted tech and gold to an A.I. getting it to cordial and the very next turn, its back to hostile or enraged. The only sure way I have found to maintain an alliance in mid to late game is to avoid contact with the allied civ.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Interesting observations, Ace. Thank you.

But my version is not MGE. It is single player on Mac. And this was the first time I observed such behavior.

 

[Andu Indorin]

I did not gift them any cash. I did not expect that behavior and was suprised.

Actually this was the first time ever for me that an ally cancelled an alliance without first making a demand.

Therein may lay the difference, especially in that I gave the EU Stealth technology in addition to some gold prior to making my Freight deliveries; likewise, I acceeded to the EU's request and declared war on I.S. These actions may have bought me enough time to make the deliveries before the EU did to me what the US did to you. (I'm pretty sure that the scenario designer set most of the diplomatic variables for all civs quite low to promote WWIII.)

This seems to be standard practice in MGE. I have lost count of the times this has happened to me in mid to late game. After about AD 1000 (approx), its almost automatic for an ally to blow you off with no chance for you to save the alliance. And gifting does not seem to help at this stage of the game. I have gifted tech and gold to an A.I. getting it to cordial and the very next turn, its back to hostile or enraged. The only sure way I have found to maintain an alliance in mid to late game is to avoid contact with the allied civ.

Just out of curiousity, given the date 1000 AD and after, is this around the time of the acquisition of either Gunpowder and/or Industrialization? Industrialization definitely serves as a kind of "trigger" for a major cooling of AI relations; and there seems to be a similar tendency -- though not quite not as pronounced -- when Gunpowder is discovered.

I have experienced some success in maintaining diplomatic relations with the Industrialization trigger in MPE by gifting that tech immediately to the other civs, and then immediately building the Eiffel Tower on the same turn in an attempt to "lock in" the higher value before the power rankings are recalibrated. This tends to work best with the "perfectionist" civs, and least best with the expansionist civs. Needless to say, in Classic 2.42, the building of the Eiffel Tower is not that critical; gifting Industrialization usually does the trick alone. (Incidently, I think this exactly why the often useless Eiffel Tower has the "power" as a Wonder that it does; to compensate for the dramatic drop off in relations with other civs that results from a human player's acquisition of industrialization before AI players.)

 

[URUWASHI]

I find this a very insteresting subject.
I played the game 2 more times, one to conquest..and one to see if a Non-Align SS could be launch in JUly/August 2010.
The first turn playing EL has different outcomes, just by contacting other Civs.
For instance on my second Landing, after the first turn is over, I contaced Chinese..and traded Democracy for Space Flight, Then Indians, exchanged I believe rocketry for Nuclear Fission , and Islam for Fundamentalism.
I wanted to rush Apollo and build it ASAP and also to change my government to Fundy in April
Then proceeded to the second turn....I had not a problem with Europe or the USA.
But I know that IF you exchange then Fundie ( i.e ) with Europe or USA , ( on the first turn ) then both will attack you on the second turn...Why ??
Is it better to Ignore the Bigger and most powerful opponents ?? does the AI think you are not existing until is contact??
Europe, contaced me on the 4th or 5th Turn ( EL Game ) and demanded to get at war with Islam....I refused, and they ask me for Fundie...I gave them Fundie, just avoiding a war with Islam or Europe.
Things were different on the Conquest game since I did not had to rush Apollo and the advances I exchanged for were not space flight related.
In fact I dont think I exchanged much on the Conquest game, except Fundie and Anphiboius warefare....After April , and discovering the Laser I was getting an advance every 3 turns , due to the massive caravans
In fact I was able to change to Fundie in April and beef up many armies..then I asked for tribute to Russian, and Indians , until I pretty much dried they gold..then was easy to subvert their cities..
Chinese never paid tribute, but attacked me ..and I retaliated and conquered China in a couple of turns I nuked Beijing ..they never relocated their Capital.....a handfull of spys then took over and bribed all of China.....then I had a passage to India....then to Islam...
I started subverting the Russian from Japan ..and took them in about 8 to 10
So does the Space Flight advance creates a different outcome ?
Does the AI consider that Apollo , or space flight can be a trigger to declare war ?