GOTM #7 Suggestions

[Az]

Last time this samethread which refered to GOTM 6 appeared to be completly usseless since TF and Matrix acted without taking what had been said into consideration. I agree with the fact that a GOTM must also be a surprise but at least that shouldn't happen always.

I know that many of you like custom maps because of exploration. But many others also like premade maps. I like them because they kind of allow me to change the history of the world as I know it.
So I'd like the next game to be emperor, on a premade map which of course should be one from the Civ II CD since it should be familiar to everybody. The best maps for me are Large world, and Pacific.
I think that the Pacific map is a better choice since it offers good naval possibilities which wasn't been the case in the last two GOTMs.

What do you say?

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[This message has been edited by Az (edited July 16, 2001).]

 

[noughmaster]

Large world just takes so long to play. I don't know if it's appropriate for a monthly comp. I wouldn't want much bigger than 65 x 100. Maybe we could give it a go, however.
Does anyone else want to try Deity?

 

[starlifter]

by Az:

...
But many others also like premade maps.
...

In general I don't like premade maps... part of the fun is explorig and gambling on your discovery and incomplete idea about the unknown part of the world. So I don't favor premade maps, like the World map, etc. But if the GOTM players (as a whole) wanted one, I wouldn't object.

posted July 18, 2001 04:33 AM by noughmaster:
Large world just takes so long to play. I don't know if it's appropriate for a monthly comp. I wouldn't want much bigger than 65 x 100. Maybe we could give it a go, however. Does anyone else want to try Deity?

Personally, I prefer Deity all the time when I play my own games. In GOTM 4 (before I joined CFC and started playing GOTMs), they had a deity.

I prefer Deity, but that said, I really don't think it's in the best interest of the GOTM players as a whole, since many are learning Civ II, or at least learning new skills. Many Deity game will just wipe an inexperienced player out, esp. if the initial position is challenging. So in the interest of all, I don't favor Deity in GOTMs except on a rare basis, and even then the starting setup should be carefully considered.

I agree on the map size (max size = medium). Though I play on large to huge maps personally, it is in the best interest of the GOTM to consder the players' completion time. As a result, medium ("normal") is probably as much as we should have in a GOTM.

 

[Matrix]

About the size: next GOTM is in August -> holiday! Some people are gone and don't have time at all. Others have the most time in the world. I think that if we want to play a large map ever again, it should be <u>now</u>.

Premade maps: not too often. And actually, I only prefer the world map, because then everybody knows it. Otherwise the fairness will surely degrade. Also, this is actually one of the best maps if you ask me, and just the best to start with as premade map. But for the future: ofcourse we can't stick to the world map.

In any case, it should be clear that if we play on a premade map now, it will take some time till we do the next.

And it also should be clear that no one may restart. Some people will have played the premade (whatever that is) map often, but if they play it for the GOTM, than - as ever - they may not start all over again. I can imagine it's much easier to do so when you're playing on a known map anyway...

So my vote is: <u>large Earth map</u>.
(large Earth is on itself also far more fun than medium Earth)

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Game of the Month administrator.

[This message has been edited by Matrix (edited July 18, 2001).]

 

[Kev]

You will all have to forgive my ignorance here as I have never been one to play premade maps at all. I have a few questions:

1. Does this "large world map" come with Civ2 Classic? The only world map that I've seen on my classic game seems kind of lame - I don't think it's the one that people are talking about.
2. Are resources always in the same place on the map, or will the "resource seed" be randomized.
3. I am supposing that it's possible to randomize starting locations so we wouldn't know where all the other civs would be.

That's it.

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Diplomacy - the art of
saying "Good Doggie"
until you can find a rock

 

[Smash]

We shouldn't limit ourselves.There are literally 1000s of fantastic pre-made maps out there.Only the GotM creator need know if one were used.

 

[Cunobelin Of Hippo]

I've got to second Kev on the "randomize starting locations". It would be WAY to easy to wipe out the competition if you knew where they were from the start.

Might I suggest the Mighty Celts as a good tribe to play!

 

[starlifter]

by Matrix:

So my vote is: large Earth map.

FWIW, it's fine by me for a large map, assuming others don't mind. I'm up for anything, personally. Hopefully, some of the "masses" of GOTM players will make their opinions known, too.

As for the specific map, as long as the raw map is available equally to all, then any one is also OK by me. If the specific map (like maybe one that Smash could be referring to) is not available in all Civ II editions, then a "clean" map (exposed map with a couple "dummy" civs, not using the same resource seed as the actual GOTM) should be posted for everyone to download and be familiar with prior to GOTM 7.

With a large map (like you're talking about), we may as well use a hard difficulty level, like Emperor or Deity, too

. Then the following month you could figure a faster, smaller, lower difficulty level more conducive to the relatively new players.

About tribes, I personally don't care; however, certain tribes are almost worthless on large maps, like the Aztecs, Bablyonians, and Egpytians. They just don't expand and play as aggressively as, say, the Mongols, Russians, Vikings, Sioux, and even Japanese.

 

[Cunobelin Of Hippo]

Good thinking starlifter! I mean 'strategically' selecting the opposing tribes .

We could have a 'realistic balance', with some 'pacifists' and some 'killallists'. Romans, Germans, Babylonians, Aztecs, Chinese, English, and Mongols.

We could have a "LET's GET READY TO RUMMMMBBBBBLLLLE!" game, with the war club: Celts, Vikings, Zulus, Spanish, Persians, Carthaginians, Mongols, OR EVEN BETTER: Everyone change their rules.txt so that EVERYONE is an agg. mil. expan.

Or a "UN' game with all the biyatch tribes: Romans(yeah, not really a biyatch), Germans, Babylonians, Egyptians, Americans, English, Sioux.

Surprise us, oh GOTM gods!

 

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Cunobelin Of Hippo:
Surprise us, oh GOTM gods!

I assure you - we will...

Originally posted by Smash:
We shouldn't limit ourselves.There are literally 1000s of fantastic pre-made maps out there.Only the GotM creator need know if one were used.

I have to disagree. If it's a premade map, than I feel that <u>everyone</u> needs to know the map. That's also why I propose the world map.

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CivFanatics staff member: Game of the Month administrator & moderator.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Originally posted by Matrix:

Originally posted by Smash:
We shouldn't limit ourselves.There are literally 1000s of fantastic pre-made maps out there.Only the GotM creator need know if one were used.

I have to disagree. If it's a premade map, than I feel that <u>everyone</u> needs to know the map. That's also why I propose the world map.

I see what Smash is saying. Just because it is a premade map, doesn't mean you have to tell us it is. That way everyone can explore it on their own.

However, I can see how some players might gain an advantage when they realize what map it might be and everybody else doesn't realize it.

Edit: fix quote boundries

[This message has been edited by Duke of Marlbrough (edited July 19, 2001).]

 

[starlifter]

by Matrix:

I have to disagree. If it's a premade map, than I feel that everyone needs to know the map. That's also why I propose the world map.

I agree with most of your thoughts, Matrix. I would simply add that a pre-made map is OK to keep secret (IMHO) if... IF it is a pre-made map that the GOTM players are not familiar with. This would probably limit the number of maps, or else someone would have to recuse themselves and make a special map.

Assuming we were using the 3 of 5 (or 4 of 6) GR method starting in August (this is a subtle reminder

), the map creator would not be "hurt" in the GR by not submitting an official GOTM score one month. I suspect that we have some experienced and clever people that could heavily modify an existing map, or create and modify a new one... with the intent being to create a specific style of play that month.

But if the pre-made map were published ahead of time (with a different resource seed & no civs), even the map-makers(s) could play.

The guiding principle should adhere to you original statements, Matrix... namely that we all have an equal footing, so the GOTM can at least begin with the same reference for all players

.

 

[Thunderfall]

I discussed this with Matrix a while ago. My only concern with World Map game is that if people want to cheat, they could just goto some Civ2 HOF, download a saved game and submit it. Many HOF games are played on large World Map. There are many Civ2 HOF on the net (some Civ2 sites other than Apolyton and CivFanatics have HOF too). It would take lots of work to double check the submitted games.

I know nearly or all of GOTM players wouldn't cheat, but it's something we should consider when deciding what type of maps to use.

Here is my proposal: We let Matrix pick a pre-made map and use it to start a normal GOTM game so it will still feel like all past GOTM games except the map is pre-made. We can let Matrx pick any map he want for August, but he can't participate in the August GOTM so only he knows the map.

[This message has been edited by Thunderfall (edited July 20, 2001).]

 

[Cunobelin Of Hippo]

Yes, but the cheating would be easily detectable if someone downloaded a HOF game because there would be DIFFERENT tribes on the Powergraph!

Foiled again, by Sherlok H. (the H is for 'Hippo'

)

 

[starlifter]

posted July 20, 2001 07:53 PM
Yes, but the cheating would be easily detectable if someone downloaded a HOF game because there would be DIFFERENT tribes on the Powergraph!

They would also find it difficult to make the power graphs in 1 AD and 1000 AD match up.

In general, there is probably not a lot of incentive to cheat (I assume) since there is almost no reward at stake. Most of the fun is in the discussions and posts, etc... at least to me it is. But I guess everyone might have different motivations.

As an indirect incentive against cheating, I think Matrix normally zips the .SAVs for optional download each month, though I have not noticed teh GOTM 5 .SAVs yet. A cheater like that would doubless be noticed by someone looking at the .SAVs.

The main "worry" I would have is just the "honest" bias that someone who realized "Ahah! This map is XXXX, and now I remember it..." when the rest of us have no idea, and for all we know could be a random map.

So my input is if we use a standard (even obscure) pre-made map, it should be posted first (sans same seed and civs), to ensure equal footing. If the map-maker would heavily modify the map (terrain in particular), then it could be used without prior posting, because no one should be able to recognize it as the game unfolds.

That said, I am personally still willing to play a pre-made map that is unknown to me (and I've only played 3 or 4 maps), and I'll give away the advantage of knowing the map, mainly because my own playing style probably won't change too much even if I knew it ahead of time.

 

[Thunderfall]

Originally posted by Cunobelin Of Hippo:
Yes, but the cheating would be easily detectable if someone downloaded a HOF game because there would be DIFFERENT tribes on the Powergraph! <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0> Foiled again, by Sherlok H. (the H is for 'Hippo' <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/biggrin.gif" border=0>)

I guess that's one way to solve the problem.

Matrix could customize each tribe in the game, give them crazy names such as Hippo Clan, Shadow Clan, The Marix, etc.

Good idea Hippo.

 

[Matrix]

Look, I think we shouldn't worry about cheaters anyway, because if someone has the intention to cheat, then it's easy enough to do so without leaving a way for me to detect it. So don't try to find different ways to stop someone cheating; it's no use. If someone will cheat, then I'll congratulate him with his fake medal(!) But I have faith no one will.

However, it's easy for me to download all the HOF savegames played on the Earth map and on our difficulty level. And then - as you say, Hippo - even the tribes should be the same as well, so that would reduce the number of usable HOF savegames to none, one or perhaps two. I'll take a look. It's holiday, remember?

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CivFanatics staff member: Game of the Month administrator & moderator.

 

[shadowdale]

Hmm - it would be enough just to customize the tribe that we are playing!!!

BTW how about we use a scenario in one of the next months? I think that it could be worth a try - because that would take the focus away from empire building and more on the warfare part of Civ!!!

I think a scenario like Napoleon from the CD would be a good one!!

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We are species 8472 - assimilation attempts are futile - the weak shall perish

No wait we are species 5618 and we got beer...... don't harm us!!!!!!

 

[Az]

Yeah but why world?

Why couldn't we have an "exotic" map? Like the Pacific f.i.!

We could also start in...Australia!!!

I'm serious. Why don't we do something unusual?
Start on an Island would oblige us to reconsider all our known strategies!

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[Cunobelin Of Hippo]

YES!!! Let's start on Hawaii on the pacific map and see who can pull off a win!!

Can you say, 'OCC'?