GOTM 8 *Spoiler* Talks

Science - I have managed to gather from comments across the boards that somehow, trading or gifting tech lowers the cost of your science, but I have not been able to find any specifics.
There is a pattern that the Civ II uses for determining your science cost. Depending on how powerful you are, the game will use different civs (by color) to be the "baseline" civilization. The easy thing to remember is that if you are SUPREME, give the purple everything. If you are not supreme, give everyone everything. If you are weakest (pathetic, I think... but this is only for OCC players usually), give only White everything.

It's not a huge deal if you don't, but gifting will lower the cost of science. Near the end of the tech tree, you should have dozens of freight anyway, and so it will not matter too much. The bigger your science lead over the "key civ", the more that science will cost you.

So, to review: Get SUPREME, and about mid game, give the purple everything you got. If you're not supreme, study posts on gifting (use search), or simply give everyone all advances and get as much maps, goodwill, alliances, and gold as you can for them.


Look at my log, and you can see how often I give my ally (the Sioux) my advances. Near the end of the tree, every time I get a new advance, they get it too. But I'm also controlling them with one city, and they have no way to contact other civs, as I killed their only contact... the English. Duhhhh.... any questions why I killed the English off an no one else? There is no uncontrolled contact allowed in my game!! Well, at least this easy Warlord game.

The nature of the game made it impossible to explode my city growth in all directions as I tend to do in other games.
Ditto for me... there are not enough resources to do everything at once, like on larger maps with bigger initial land. Plus, the terrain in the surrounding lands is not really the most hospitable. In fact, it is difficult to develop cities until technology arrives, like harbors, offshore platforms, etc.

Once I do...Should I start shipping it to the Japanese in full transportloads?
Remember my 2 F's... Freight Funds. In war, it's 3 F's... Freight Funds Fighting. however, pick you destinations carefully. Make a city on the opposite side of the world with max natural trade, an airport and superhighway... use it as the "target" for your core cities. You need to max the distance. Small maps a tough on trade, since the initial bonus is so small compared to a large map. I don't think I've had even a 1,500 gold freight, much least 3,500 or 4,000 like I usually do. That has a lot to do with why my own game is very slow... many of my 44 cities are very small, or even size one. I just don't have the gold to make the all "balloon" at the same time.... yet.

Only after I have all the improvements do I start on caravans - and you'll note I recorded the date of my first Caravan
That may not always be the best order of things. It really depends on the game situation. Usually, only my SSC get the best treatment with the best improvements early on. In GOTM 8, my SSC was the only one allowed to grow past size 12 for the longest time, due to several things, including the gold to buy/PRB sewers and banks and stock markets and coliseums, etc.

Until a solid core of about 12 to 15 cities is grown, I can't really run as wild as I'd like. In GOTM 8, I'm just reaching that critical mass, but soaked everything and shot my wad of reserve freight to fund a small SS, which will be launching soon. But when I recover from that in a couple turns, everything will turn to the economy and expanding and growing. And Freight will fund it. I will post a couple of my GOTM 8 save games when I complete my long-delayed 1 AD turn later today... I've been too busy to get to it this week.

:)

Public Service Message: This message is 4,243 characters long, seems safe now, and the warning is recinded.

america1s.jpg
 
:( Can't f***in' believe this ! I just lost my saved GOTM#8 files :confused: after winning with a score in excess of 3000 in int 9th century... :mad: oh well, maybe I've time for another go tonight/tomorrow !

This was the first time I'd played a GOTM as well... I knew I shouldn't have named my cities after Zappa song titles ('Obdewl X', 'Zolar Czakl', 'Moggio' etc) :mutant:
 

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I don't think you have got the time: you've only got 4 days till the deadline; that not enough for another go. By the way: *if* you try and *if* you succeed to end it, try to keep yourself dumb and forget about how the world looks like. That's actually quite important in this game...

Nevertheless, pity that you lost your savegames. :( I hope it doesn't happen to you again...

Oh, and one more thing: why post that picture here? Couldn't you better post it in the Humor & Jokes subforum?
 
220 - Lea, S - Tac
280 - Tac, S - Amp
340 - Amp, S - Ref
400 - Ref, Paris constructs Sun Tzu's War Academy, S - Cmb
460 - Tours constructs Leonardo's Workshop, Cmb, S - Com
540 - Cmn, S - Mag
600 - Mag, S - E1 (during this time, only land improvement and city improvement is going on)
620 - The city of Grenoble is founded on a small five space isle. Dijon founded west of Chartres.
660 - E1, Darwin's Voyage completed in Paris, E2, Esp, S - Stl
720 - Stl, S - Too
780 - Amiens founded on the southern edge of the Sioux continent.
800 - Too, S - Aut
820 - Marseilles builds the Statue of Liberty
860 - Aut, S - Min
880 - The city of Cherbourg founded on the western edge of the Sioux continent.
980 - (after a bit of WLTXD growth) Min, S - Rfg
1000 - Hoover Dam built in Paris. Rfg, S - MP
1040 - MP, S - Cmp
1060 - Shakespeare's Theatre constructed in Paris.
1070 - Cmp, S - Mob
1100 - Mob, S - Rob
1130 - Rob, S - NF
1160 - NF, S - NP
1190 - NP, S - Las
1220 - Las, S - Gue. The city of Poitiers is founded north of Cherbourg.
1250 - Gue, S - Lab. Paris grants Women's Suffrage.
1270 - Lab, S - Rcy
1290 - Rcy, S - Fli
1310 - Fli, S - Fnd (Only advance available was Fnd! Grrr....)
1330 - Fnd, S - Rad
1360 - Rad, S - AdFlt
1430 - The United Nations built in Paris.
1450 - AdFlt, S - Roc
1470 - Roc, S - CA (Where was Space Flight? Argh.)
1490 - CA, S - SFl
1505 - SFl, S - Env (Goal achieved, with a mere four centuries' lead time on the Real World. Then again, I never had a Dark Age.)
1515 - Env, S - Plas
1525 - Plas, S - Gen
1535 - Gen, S - Sup
1550 - Sup, S - Sth
1555 - Paris completes the Apollo Program. Toulouse founded in a heavily forested area of the Sioux continent.
1560 - Sth, S - FP
1570 - FP, S - FT1 (Science Rate set to zero just as the treasury's almost gone)
1580 -> - 1755 - I do not recall the specifics, but during the first batch of turns, I finished Solar Plants and Manufacturing Plants in all my cities, adding Mass Transit where it wasn't already. I constructed SS Structural until I hit 39, then switched every city to SS Component and built to 16, then switched to SS Module and PRB'ed them all to max out a spaceship, which was done by at least 1610. After that, each city built Barracks, then built a Mech. Inf for homeland defence and then built either two Armor or two Howitzer. (Tours built two Transport as well) Rheims built a port facility, one battleship and one AEGIS cruiser instead. During this time, Paris constructed two carriers, one battleship, two Stealth bombers and fourteen Stealth fighters, with a port facility and airport. Marseilles added a Spy, and I assembled the group just east of Tours. Land forces contained were one Spy, four Armor and ten Howitzer, with an additional four Howitzer having been flown into Rouen in previous turns and Rouen itself having constructed two Armor.
1645 - Sioux steal Advanced Flight from Amiens. I declare war, Sioux activate alliance and draw in the Celts. They trade Advanced Flight to the Celts, who trade it to the Japanese. Later this turn, three Sioux bombers assault Amiens, destroying its defender and its engineers.
1650 - I PRB Mech Inf into each city on the Sioux continent, dispatching Stealth fighters to cover each city as it does so. Fortunately for me, while Paris is not done at this time, Rheims' AEGIS cruiser is available to cover one carrier which is present with five Stealth fighters.
1655 - Celtic bomber assaults my AEGIS cruiser and is blown away. Main group almost to position. I RB SAM Missile Batteries on each city on the Sioux continent. I then wait for the force I mentioned above to complete. Along the way, Chartres builds the Great Wall and King Richard's Crusade, just for the points.
1756 - Main group completes assembly and begins to move.
1763 - Battleship bombardments destroy garrisons in Wood Lake and Little Bighorn. Howitzers and Armor come ashore, obliterating city garrisons while sliding along the Sioux rail nets. As the very last action, French units capture Little Bighorn, Three Forks, Stony Lake, Slim Buttes, Killdeer, York, London (with the Eiffel Tower), and destroy Dead Buffalo.
1764 - Sioux sue for peace. Senate approves "peacekeeping". Sioux steal Labor Union, then trade it to the Celts, who trade it to the Japanese :mad:
1765 - French forces destroy garrisons in Nottingham, Wounded Knee, Bear Paw, and Big Mound. Partisans pop up upon capture of Wounded Knee. Senate signs a cease fire and peace. I send my spies, who subvert Nottingham, Bear Paw, and Big Mound. Other spies bribe the partisans who then walk into the cities they just popped out of and fortify. Sioux holdings at this point: 2 cities, Raging Brook (2) and Point of Rocks (1).
1766 - Japanese bomber makes a sneak attack on Grenoble. SAM Missile Battery assists fortified veteran Mech Inf in shooting it down. Stealth fighter picks off Japanese bomber hanging in the middle of the water.
1767 - forces load up for transport to the Celtic continent. Two new transports with sixteen spies join them.
1776 - I surround Cardiff and Armagh with units. Spies go wild, bribing every unit in a fortress on the continent. I end up with NONE musketeers on fortressed mountains and NONE partisans in fortresses surrounding many Celtic cities. However, Cunobelin sues for peace and the Senate grants it.
1802 - 1804 - Cunobelin goes after my fortified Armor in a fortress with a catapult. He does unnoticeable damage. Battleship bombardments and howitzer fire destroys the defences of Cardiff, Armagh, Tintagel, Caernarfon, and Carmarthen. I succesfully occupy Armagh's and Cardiff's partisan spots, but partisans pop up when I move into Tintagel. Senate gives them peace again, but I subvert every other city except Caerphilly and Kells. Spy moves up to find the Sioux city of Raging Brook, which I subvert and turn into an engineer. SETI Program completed in Chartres. At the same time, twenty four spies land on the Japanese continent, immediately subverting Osaka. The cities are something like 8000 to subvert, not that much, but I had to turn up taxes a bit. I'll probably be able to subvert them all in short order. Oh yes, Carthaginians discover Mathematics.

That's where I happen to be right now. I figure I'll dust off what's left of the Celts, Japanese and Sioux, then launch the ship. Shouldn't be more than a few minutes.

-Sev
 
Heya all,

Here's two firsts: This is my first post ever and this was my first GOTM.

I really enjoyed it, although late midgame got a bit tedious so I went for conquest, which I hardly ever do. Never bothered about optimizing for score (If I had, I wouldn't have scored over 100% anyway, I think) but I still got a 69% rating which isn't too bad. (For me at least.)

'Twas fun, I plan to participate again in #9.

Oh, here's a third first: I hadn't ever played (without losing within about 50 turns, that is) at Deity (usually play Warlord or Prince for fun and King for a challenge) before looking at these forums. I tried it this month and I managed to get to retirement without dying. :) (Rating 21%, which I'm happy about for a first attempt.) I'm confident I can win the next time I try Deity.

Thanks to all of you out here for helping me rediscover the tremendous fun of Civ2.

Lazarus
 
Here are some save games and a little puzzle. In 1 AD, I have just completed Apollo, and the tech tree is basically done, except for Mech Infantry and Fundamentalism.

Originally, I'd planed to build a SS for a few turns, given that my number of cities is only 44 and many are quite small. I'd moved a few pieces two weeks ago, and stopped while I thought about it. I though about it off and on, and after doing some pencil and paper math, it seemed likely that a SS could be built in one turn, if everything was planned carefully. The basic math is this:

Structural:
23*80=1840 shields=7,360 gold
15*80=1200 shields=4,800 gold
39*80=3120 shields=12,480 gold
Components
2*160=320 shields=1280 gold
4*160=640 shields=2560 gold
8*160=1,280 shields=5,120 gold
Modules
3*320=960 shields=3,840 gold
6*320=1920 shields=7,860 gold
12*320=3840 shields=15,720 gold

From this, a 15-1-1-1-1-1 = 4,800+1,280+3,840=9,920gold

A 23-1-1-2-2-2 = 7,360+2,560+7,860=17,780gold

A 39-8-8-4-4-4 = 33,320 gold

With manufacturing of 1,198 shields per turn, about 1,000 should be usable (4,000 gold). Plus, Riflemen & Settlers (20s=80g each), Cavalry (30s=120g each). Freight is worth 50s=200g. Obviously, it is better to deliver commodities (worth at least 200g each). There is 2,667 in the bank.

So 18,000 - 4,000 - 2,667 ~ 11,500g. This means that units and freight need to be able to provide 11,500 gold to build in one turn. This seems doable, but barely. A 39-8-8-4-4-4 is probably doable by 93 AD, but it would take 4 more turns of almost 100% resources to do it.

So that's the easy math. Build a SS in one turn... I went for the 23-1-1-2-2-2 because I could not afford a bigger one, and had a little cash left over afterwards. It will land in 84 AD... you want to land a SS before 100 AD and you have fusion, BTW.

There is a lot of exact micro management to get everything worked out, and it took me over an hour to slowly move everything properly... in part, because in the years up to 1AD I had not planned on a 1-turn SS after Apollo. So, when the SS launches in AD 20, things will go faster. After recovering from using almost all my freight to get gold and build the SS, I'll start expanding and growing until the SS lands.

Feel free to have a look at my "solution" at the end of 1AD, after you try yours. I won't be working on the game until Sunday, when hopefully I'll have a few uninterrupted hours after football. I'll make a final timeline, and at the risk of foot in mouth, I'd say at least 4,000 is a good bet, based on GOTM 5's results on a similar map (I'm at about 1,200 right now, but that will increase).

america1s.jpg
 

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hmmm I am a bit confused - I know that you can't build a Space shuip before 1AD - but I also thought that you couldn't build the Apollo program before 1AD??? But it's 360BC and I just build it...........

BTW it's amazing what you can do when you get 7000+ gold in your treasury every turn and have 350+ engineers.............

I'm pretty sure that I won't have time to finish the game with a SS launch but it's fun to play!!!

360BC, 27.000 gold around 100 cities (I build them rather close, I have 11 or 12 on the first island and 33+ on the Japanese island...) - and the poles are being mined.

I just finished off the Sioux and English a few turns ago and now only the Zulu and Celts are still left. I can build a lot of shield increasing improvements since the polution isn't an issue on the level so I'm really boosting my production in all my cities....

:sniper:
 
by Shadowdale:

hmmm I am a bit confused - I know that you can't build a Space shuip before 1AD - but I also thought that you couldn't build the Apollo program before 1AD??? But it's 360BC and I just build it...........

BTW it's amazing what you can do when you get 7000+ gold in your treasury every turn and have 350+ engineers.......
I've never played at this low level with so many pre-1AD turns before, so I've never even been a position to build a SS in pre-1AD... and I missed it (barely) in this game. It seems you can, though, judging from how your game is going. Maybe Smash did, too.

Yes, gold is the key... as is carefully spending it and not wasting shields. In this GOTM, I don't have anywhere near even 100 engineers on this small map. I may hit about 200 before the end, as "crunch" time comes tomorrow. Based on how GOTM 7 unexpectedly went for me, I'm sort of converted to a belief that I don't need to perfect the terrain as much as I had presumed, beginning in June. I'm going to get out the big stick, and force my little Democrats to breed like rabbits (I hope!). IMHO, some of the terrain in GOTM 8 is not particularly conducive to fast growth.

Hey Shadowdale, post some of your powergraphs from 3000 BC, 2000BC and 1000BC, and maybe 500BC. You game is clearly the cream of this GOTM crop, and enjoying to watch. But hopefully some folks are ahead of my timeline and will give you a run this month... but I doubt it! Your results are phenomenal, as usual! As I've said in my PMs to you, I don't think you should quit playing GOTMs, dude!

And you say you're not a Mathematician, LOL!!! If you only knew how mathematical Civ II really is, and how your ability rewrites the boundaries of math progressions ;). You are missing your calling drinking beer :beer: ... NATO could use your ability in it's wargaming simulations! :D

america1s.jpg
 
Originally posted by starlifter
Hey Shadowdale, post some of your powergraphs from 3000 BC, 2000BC and 1000BC, and maybe 500BC. You game is clearly the cream of this GOTM crop, and enjoying to watch. But hopefully some folks are ahead of my timeline and will give you a run this month... but I doubt it! Your results are phenomenal, as usual! As I've said in my PMs to you, I don't think you should quit playing GOTMs, dude!

Just as soon as I get pulled together and make it to 1AD I'll upload a save and a pic of my powergraph - not that there is much to see on the powergraph. I don't expect any graph to say a whole lot on this level.

And you say you're not a Mathematician, LOL!!! If you only knew how mathematical Civ II really is, and how your ability rewrites the boundaries of math progressions ;). You are missing your calling drinking beer :beer: ... NATO could use your ability in it's wargaming simulations! :o [/IMG] [/B]


Naaa I would rather work with the UN then NATO - I don't like hurting people - which is probably one of the reasons why I always bribe, thatn and because it's easier and more neat....

And the beer drinking thing - wow, I'm not missing out on any action - I have hardly been able to play today because of the party I had last night..... To much beer, whiskey and shots isn't the best of comboes - not after only four hours of sleep and then only three last night - but I did get a date so I'll have to do it all again tonight....... :D

:sniper:
 
It took me 5 minutes to build a 31-2-2-3-3-3- in one turn.Very easy.

You can build Apollo before 1ad but not SS parts..unless....the game is a scenario.
 
You just need to decide what configuration to build.I just set the appropriate # of cities building a wonder till the part is researched.Then switch off and buy them.
 
It took me 5 minutes to build a 31-2-2-3-3-3- in one turn.Very easy.
Well, I must be just a slow thinker then! When I changed my mind about building a SS, I was not sure it would work out well, so I did a bunch of math on my demographics, existing freight value, transport capacity, etc. My plan had been to take a few turns and let my factories do the brunt of the work of SS construction... I should have prepared better, but it was a last minute thing.

I even considered the disbandment of most of my engineers and Cav/Riflemen. However! When it came to me actually moving so many of my NONE units into cities for disbandment, I just could not do it!! And I did not want to kill off so many of my engineers, esp. since I am so eng. short anyway. But I did disband a few to save gold. On paper, I'd planned this:

Mfg: 1198 shields (production output)
Freight: 1150 shields (Start wonder & switch)
Engineers (64): ~1000 shields (disbandment)
Riflemen (24): ~ 400 shields (disbandment)
Cavalry (17): ~300 shields (disbandment)
Gold in Bank (~2600): 650 shields (4 gold per shield)


In my method, I did a lot of freight movement, and used RR & airfields to make a hasty route around my Ally, the Sioux, so I could ship chain some cargo from my core empire to Amiens. I also decided to rename the cities into a freight-friendly convention, in anticipation of upcoming frieght air transport.

The good thing is that there can be no more sea barbs in my to threaten cities anymore (Mobile warfare). But I still hate leaving so many cities without even a spy for defense.

I would like to see how you approached the SS for my 1 AD, Smash. You doubtless have a better method! Did you disband lots of settlers/riflemen? That's the only main remaining reservoir of resources I could see to tap into, and in the end, I could not bring myself to pull the trigger on them. LOL, and you must have built something in every single city (31+4+9=44!). I still kept on my usual pattern of rush buying stuff in little cities that had a dribble of shields to start. I did not spend the 80 gold fee to rush any size 1/2 improvements on this turn, however, since the gold was so so tight. I also had 3 freight in reserve (for next turn gold/science), and had messed one up already by airlifting it... and it could not move anymore.

So cool. There are always ways to improve!

LOL, Score:
Starlifer - 1+ hours
Chofritz - 0.3 hours
Smash - 0.1 hours

america1s.jpg
 
well I did do some thinking but nothing along those lines.I just bought what was needed.In a real world,I would have been forced from office for inefficiency,corruption and misuse of government funds :)

I did this:
31 cities start wonder A.
4 cities start wonder B
9 cities(best production) start wonder C.

When the time came..just buy it all up.I had something like 20,000 gold and a few food freights lying about.

oh ya..1 more city started wonder to actually build Apollo.
 
well I did do some thinking but nothing along those lines.I just bought what was needed.In a real world,I would have been forced from office for inefficiency,corruption and misuse of government funds

I did this:
31 cities start wonder A.
4 cities start wonder B
9 cities(best production) start wonder C.

When the time came..just buy it all up.I had something like 20,000 gold and a few food freights lying about.

oh ya..1 more city started wonder to actually build Apollo.
Hey, is a good system! I was simply making freight going into 1 AD. After reaching 1AD, I stopped playing for over a week, then changed my mind (& priorities) and decided to build a SS immediately, for launch in AD 20. So I was in a bind, since I'd been building lots of improvements instead of expanding or really heavy science, or preparing for space. That's when it became a "challenge" for me, e.g., 1 turn SS.

In my actual construction, I used the lower production cities to build the biggest parts. For instance, a 20 shield city would build a module this way:

MODULE:
Switch to Great Wall.
If shileds in box, PRB buy to 300.
If no shields, disband/deliver food freight & PRB to 300.
Switch to Module.
Next turn, Module done with minimal shield waste.

COMPONENT:

Either:
1. a. Switch to Great Wall, Deliver 3 freight (shields to 150).
1. b. Switch to component.
1. c. City's 10 shields complete module next turn.
OR
2. a. Switch to component (in a sub-10 shield city).
2. b. RB to 160 & complete component next turn.
3. Components done with minimal shield waste.

STRUCTURAL:
1. 80-shield city completes in 1 turn.
2. 65 shields + disbanded spy.
3. 60 shields + disbanded engineer/rifleman.
4. 55 shields + disbanded transport (yes, I DID that!).
5. 50 shields + disbanded cavalry.
6. 40 shields + 2 disbanded riflemen/engineers.
7. 30 shields + food freight (wonder switch).
8. 0 shields + up to 316 gold (1 shield min. in box).

Those are my basic "formula" for a 1-turn SS. Similar variations for a 2-turn SS.

Normally, I plan a minimum 2-turn SS for efficiency and continued development of smaller cities. I like the easy way you can spot wonders (blue letters) on the city status screen when doing a 2+ turn SS... just don't accidently build the wonder ;).

america1s.jpg
 
Well, in response to Matrix's reply to my woes about losing my successful GOTM files, I gave GOTM# 8 another whirl, and I basically spent all Friday night (till 3am) and today (Saturday) from 10am till 7pm solid replaying the darn thing :rolleyes: and seemed to have done it, after killing off the Japanese in 1800BC etc.. but it transpired that I hadn't done it...

It's those darned restarting Civs ! :mad:

I got to about 1400 and had Cavalry, Ironclads and Marines all lined-up around the last remaining single cities belonging to the Celts (Cardiff), Zulus, Mongols, and the English (Hastings - which is kind of a grudge I have against Hastings, after a particularly bad weekend with a :crazyeyes girl I used to know :love: :( ).

Anyway, I decided to get them all simultaneously and in one turn I destroyed and/or captured all the last remaining cities... but then nothing happened and the next turn came around and there were Greeks, Indians and so forth wandering about the place like nothing had happened, I mean, come on guys, make like it's end of the world already... well, I just had enough by that point and quit I'm afraid...

I considerded restarting a THIRD time tonight but there's only about 21 hours left before the deadline and I don't think I could handle another bunch of 'immortal' Civs... so I'm off to finish some Civ scenario games that are unfinished...

How come the game didn't end with the guillotine ? I mean, I destroyed all 4 Civs in the same turn... :confused:
 
I consider my play perfectionist...but freely admit that I can't hold a candle to Smash, Shadowdale, Starlifter, et.al.!

Gotta ask one thing though...
Smash, how did you get your SSC to 160 base trade? 60 from trade routes, leaving the rest from the arrows on your 21 squares...even if your squares are all providing 4 with colossus and superhighways, where did the other 16 come from? Silk gives you a bit - was there a massive river system I can't see on your picture, or are you getting a bonus from something I don't know about? I suppose WLTK day in a Monarchy (does that work in Communism) would do it, but you're in Demo, so no trade bonus. What's up?? :confused:

Oh, I lied - one more question - Why is everyone so happy when Lux are at 0% w. no entertainers?

Thanks for your thoughts!
 
Its actually 150.In that picture Collosus is still active and superhighways have been built.Thats only 45 doubled by Collosus.Or there abouts.Maybe starlifter can explain the base trade.It must be less.Superhighways doubles the same way Collousus does.I don't know which is factored first.

..and they are all content..not happy.This is the effect of Shake's Theatre/No unhappies in the city.
 
by Petus:

Gotta ask one thing though... Smash, how did you get your SSC to 160 base trade? 60 from trade routes, leaving the rest from the arrows on your 21 squares...even if your squares are all providing 4 with colossus and superhighways, where did the other 16 come from? Silk gives you a bit - was there a massive river system I can't see on your picture, or are you getting a bonus from something I don't know about? I suppose WLTK day in a Monarchy (does that work in Communism) would do it, but you're in Demo, so no trade bonus. What's up??
There is no river system, LOL. The base trade is 150, not 160 ;). The numbers work out exactly, and they are also correct for his scientific progress in the game at the time of the screenshot. He is getting no "magical" bonus.

The confusion stems from the fact that to the best of my knowledge, trade has never been fully and properly explained. If you read the books you buy in the store, they are misleading and often outright wrong, at least for Civ II MGE, 5.4.0f (31March1999).

BTW, you cannot grow with WLT___ day, except in Republic or Democracy. However, you can gain the critical trade arrow by fulfilling the WLT___ day conditions in a Monarchy or Communism.

"but you're in Demo, so no trade bonus" -- I don't understand that reference :). Democracy always gets the 1 arrow trade bonus, if the tile is already producing at least one trade.



by Smash:

Its actually 150.In that picture Collosus is still active and superhighways have been built.Thats only 45 doubled by Collosus....Superhighways doubles the same way Collousus does. I don't know which is factored first.
Right... 150 is the max natural city trade for that city, not 160.

SH does not double the way Colossus does -- Colossus does not double.

Before starting in on explaining this, let me say that all other sources I'm aware of are incorrect on how the entire sequence is calculated, and all other sources I've seen, including the Prima Guide, do not explain it right. Therefore, it is no wonder people are confused. I'm not sure if you'll enjoy the math, but rest assured it is correct.

There are two basic approaches to determining trade... (1) add all the individual trade tiles toghther, and (2) add fixed numbers, and adjust the differential for specials/oddball terrain. Both will yeild the same answer. The Civ II program uses method 1. Method 2 is faster to do in your head. Neither are rocket science. I prefer #2, for speed... and that's the one (differential method) I'll use here. :)


Every city I found (in a full game), I consider many things, including max trade.

Here is the way I quickly figure city trade (4 easy steps):

[1] All full cities (not on a map edge) have a max "base" base trade of 63 arrows (w/SH & Demcracy/Rep): ( 21 tiles)*(3 trade/tile)=63 trade.

This number is the same for normal ocean/land tiles.

[2] Next, add Colossus benefit (+1 per trade tile: 21*1=21 trade).

[3] If the city has Specials, then, I simply add additional trade special differentials (adjust differential for Colossus/No Colossus)... e.g., whale, silk, etc.

[4] Lastly, subtract any tile's trade you are not going to use (e.g., an overlap with another city, a hill/forest tile, etc.).



EXAMPLE FOR SMASH'S SSC:

Calculate trade tile value, Example #1:

3 - Base
1 - Road Bonus
0 - RR Bonus (There is no RR Bonus for trade in Civ II!)
1 - Democracy/Rep Bonus
1 - Colossus
===
6

3 - Superhighway Bonus (6 * 0.5 = 3.0)

===
===
9 - TOTAL Trade For Silk+Road+Dem+Colossus+SH

(DIFFERENTIAL Trade = 9 - 4 = 5, with Colossus)

Example #2: Gold Mine=6+1+1+1+4=13 (Differential=13-4=9 for Colossus)


IF YOU HAVE NO COLOSSUS:

Example #3:

3 - Base
1 - Road Bonus
0 - RR Bonus (There is no RR Bonus for trade in Civ II!)
1 - Democracy/Rep Bonus
0 - Colossus
===
5

2 - Superhighway Bonus (5 * 0.5 = 2.5)

===
===
7 - TOTAL Trade For Silk+Road+Dem+SH

(Differential Trade = 7 - 3 = 4, with NO Colossus)

Example #4: Gold Mine=6+1+1+0+4=12 (Diff=12-3=9, NO Colossus)


SPECIAL NOTE ABOUT RIVERS: (it's in quote box to keep it separate!)

If you have a River in a tile that already produces trade, add one more trade arrow.

If the tile has no trade from a road (e.g., non-special Forest or Mountain or unroaded plains/grassland/desert, etc.), the river will be used by Civ II to grant the Demo/Rep bonus; but since the SH bonus comes after the road (which does not exist!), there will be no SH bonus in a non-special, unroaded tile... only an arrow for the river, and one for Demo/Rep!.

For instance, consider a Democracy with an unroaded grassland tile & SH plus a river. Common sense & documented sources imply to expect 3 trade (1 for river, 1 for Demo bonus, and 1 for SH bonus [50% of 1+1=1]). But in fact, you will see only 2... until you build a ROAD across the river, when 4 trade arrows will "suddenly" appear! :) Why? That's because the SH does not care about the river+demo, since 50% of 1 is 0 (0 for road plus 1 for demo is what SH "sees", so it gives 0 bonus). When you add the road, now you have 1 arrow for road plus 1 arrow for demo (totaling 2), and the SH sees the TWO arrows... and since 50% of 2 is 1, you get 2+1+1(river).

So... the river comes at the end, but is still used for the Demo/Rep bonus! LOL, yes, this river issue can be confusing ;).


Using this differential technique, it is trivial to compute the trade in your head. The only "hard" part is figuring the differentials for your "specials", based on whether or not you have Colossus.

Here is the simple addition process:

63 - Base
21 - Colossus
1 - Whale (Differential Trade = 3+1+1-4 = 1)
5 - Silk (Differential Trade = 9-4 = 5)
0 - Fish (Diff=4-4=0)
====
90 - Total base trade of city (This is what is used to compute all trade bonuses!)

Add the 60 for the 3 trade routes: 90+60=150

CITY TRADE=150 Smash's numbers work out exactly! To the decimal!


BTW, Science (another Pandora's box for another day):

((150+3*14)*(1.0+0.5+0.5+0.5) + (150+3*14)*1.5)*2 = 1536

Again, ALL of Smash's numbers work out exactly!

Mathematical Simplicity ;).

U B da Master Now!

:cool:


EDIT 1: Expanded river notes.
america1s.jpg
 
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