GOTM 8 *Spoiler* Talks

[starlifter]

by frunobulax:

How come the game didn't end with the guillotine ? I mean, I destroyed all 4 Civs in the same turn..

If you just make a SS (any size SS will do!), they will no longer respawn. If you land a SS, you need not track them all down anyway .

 

[Matrix]

I've just worked up the submissions so far and encountered this (William Heisse's game):

I think you can call this the ultimate quarantaine.

Perhaps something for the special awards, starlifter.

 

[Chofritz]

If you keep the airbases award, I'm pretty sure it goes to me, Also think we should make up some clear rules for the airbase thing because they are really a adventage when you use them as a shortcut for road, railroad, irrigation and farmland...

 

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Chofritz
Also think we should make up some clear rules for the airbase thing because they are really a adventage when you use them as a shortcut for road, railroad, irrigation and farmland...

This thead is about the airbases. There I've also said it has been discussed before, but I couldn't find where. Anyway, feel free to reply to that thread concerning airbases.

 

[shadowdale]

Well I finally reached 1AD and as promised here are two saves, the one in 1 AD and one I made in 500BC - I hope that you can use them for something.. what I don't know but you might...

I was gonna upload a powergraph pic but since I don't ahve my own homepage I ahve no internet site to upload it to, so that isn't gonna happen, but you can always see it by downloading the games and end them.

BTW I have zipped them so they won't be as big.



Edit I tried to post the two files as two sepperate downloads but that didn't seem possible so I'll zip them together and upload them

 

[Peteus]

Thanks, Starlifter and Smash!
150 makes a lot more sense to me...my current random game features a SSC with slightly higher than that, due to a few more points from trade caravans. I'm still not 100% on how much trade is possible from certain specials though...a gold mine can be encouraged to produce 13 trade arrows, according to Starlifter's "Example #2"?

I noticed that having a river in a forest makes it generate a lot more trade than you'd think...forest with road & SuperHighways = 0 trade, but add a river and suddenly it's 4 (I think), like grassland/plains. Funny/odd!

Gotta love those rivers! Any MP game I play where one player has a handy river network and the other does not, seems to end predictably! The defensive bonus is nice, the trade bonus is overwhelming, and the speedy movement for early exploration is gravy.

 

[Smash]

An idea for OCC or perhaps any science city that needs a few sheilds is to chop forests and mine rivers.That way you can get some trade out of forests.

Good trade specials are gold,wine,silk,spice,gems,furs and ivory.Whales are always good and a mined,roaded oasis is like a whale.

 

[starlifter]

Originally posted by Peteus
Thanks, Starlifter and Smash!
150 makes a lot more sense to me...my current random game features a SSC with slightly higher than that, due to a few more points from trade caravans. I'm still not 100% on how much trade is possible from certain specials though...a gold mine can be encouraged to produce 13 trade arrows, according to Starlifter's "Example #2"?

Yes, 13 arrows, for those circumstances in the specific example. No tile in the standard Civ II, 1X production game is capable of producing more trade (and total resources) than a gold mine. If you put an Airfield on a gold mine, you even get a food! If you mine it with a RR (or airport), you get 3 shields! So you can wind up with: 1 food, 3 shields, 13 trade! That's 17 natural resource icons!!! Holy Cow... that's a veritable gold mine!

I noticed that having a river in a forest makes it generate a lot more trade than you'd think...forest with road & SuperHighways = 0 trade, but add a river and suddenly it's 4 (I think), like grassland/plains. Funny/odd!

I didn't volunteer this pandora's box in answering the specific question (about Smash's SSC trade), but since you realized it when I had the 2 short "River" notes... I added more info about the handling of a river (see the post again). When I have more time, we should probably just do a comprehensive trade thread to explain all the vexing trade handling, as done by Civ II. It is a pain, because the public documentaion by Microprose does not always match the final way they coded the Civ II algorithm.

This is why, for instance, people might be confused by having a Democracy, with an unroaded grassland tile & SH plus a river. Common sense & documented sources imply to expect 3 trade (1 for river, 1 for Demo bonus, and 1 for SH bonus [50% of 1+1=1]). But in fact, you will see only 2... UNTIL you build a ROAD across the river, when 4 will "suddenly" appear. That's because the SH does not care about the river+demo, since 50% of 1 is 0 (0 for road plus 1 for demo is what SH sees, so it gives 0 bonus). When you add the road, now you have 1 for road plus 1 for demo (totaling 2), and the SH sees the TWO... and 50% of 2 is 1, so you get 2+1+1(river). The river comes at the end, but is still used for the Demo/Rep bonus! But that's how the Civ II program works...

 

[Smash]

check the poles in shadow's 1ad save.This is not a sane mind we are dealing with here

 

[shadowdale]

I know I'm going insane.............

I want to make this map into one big grassland amusement park and I'll probably do it, by 85AD when my SS lands - I currently have some 450 engineers and I'll probably build a 150 more.....................

I am crazy - or should I say a FANATIC!!!!!



Help.... I need help....

 

[Master of Ceremonies]

Starlifter and Shadowdale,

You guys take this game way too seriously...for which we are all very grateful.

 

[starlifter]

by Shadowdale,

Well I finally reached 1AD and as promised here are two saves, the one in 1 AD and one I made in 500BC - I hope that you can use them for something..

LOL, believe me, Shadowdale, you don't want to publicly ask me what I've been using your .SAV games for...

what I don't know but you might...

Let's just say that they provide me a great deal of entertainment that evidently only a game programmer & mathematician can fully appreciate!

by Smash:

check the poles in shadow's 1ad save.This is not a sane mind we are dealing with here

Thanks for the note! I took your advice, and have looked to Shadowdale's technique for speeding engineer work with multiple engineers!

Hey Shadowdale, I see you are transforming those poles to grassland! That's a good idea! Do you find that stacking multiple engineers like that speeds up the process? I usually don't try it like you're doing... that's impressive that you are able to do that!!!

by Shadowdale:

I want to make this map into one big grassland amusement park and I'll probably do it,

I do look forward to seeing your real game that you submit to the GOTM! And grassland is the way to go to make the largest possible cities!

I currently have some 450 engineers and I'll probably build a 150 more...

Engineers are King in late game!! You're quite accomplished at producing and using them with the innovative "Shadowdale" technique.

Have you ever been able to transform a tile in one turn when using enough engineers? And a pile of engineers be used to irrigate a tile, or maybe put a RR across a river in one turn? You should post your insight and teach us, as I'm always interested in speeding up engineer work!

BTW, how many turns is it taking you for a stack of 5 or 6 engineers to transform the Polar Ice? Does 6 engineers cut the time by 1/3 over the speed of just 2 engineers, for instance? As for me, I usually just build a city right on the ice, and only use one or 2 at a time in the poles... so polar work is too slow for me to bother with.

 

[shadowdale]

Well actually I have no idea how long it takes for any number of engineers to trnasform glaciers and tundra to desert/plain/graslands - I just loaded of three engineers of at every glacier and two at every tundra, and let them work, while I was turning my attention to the normal islands......

What suprised me a lot was that some squares where finished faster than others - even if they had started at the same time.??? And that shouldn't be possible, unless some of the engineers had been working on something and were interrupted from it - but I'm pretty sure none of them were.....

But just as soon as a square is finished I just move the engineers a long and either help on a square or start on a new one.

I haven't tried nor been able to transform a square in one turn, I have only managed to go from grassland to road/railroad+irrigation/farmlands in one turn, but usually I won't use more than 3-5 engineers on one square since it seems as if it doesn't speed it up that much with more. the turns have much more to do with the tranformation than the number of engineers.

But I never really keep any kind of record of this since I have no mathematic interest in it - most of what I do in this game is based on impulse and instinct - funny hearing myself say that about a game???

 

[starlifter]

I just loaded of three engineers of at every glacier and two at every tundra, and let them work, while I was turning my attention to the normal islands......

I noted that in the polar regions you often had 4, 5, 6, 7 in places, all busily working the terrain. Interesting idea!

What suprised me a lot was that some squares where finished faster than others - even if they had started at the same time.??? And that shouldn't be possible, unless some of the engineers had been working on something and were interrupted from it - but I'm pretty sure none of them were....

LOL, there is nothing surprising about what you are observing in the behavior of your engineers in your particular game . Yes, I know exactly how your polar engineers are doing the work, and precisely why some of your engineers will finish before others. But I really shouldn't explain it here, but will if you insist.

When I have time in a couple weeks, I'd be willing to write a detailed post about how engineers really work, and the correct way to speed up their process. Plus some examples, LOL. But I suspect you're not going to like the answer, though... Hint: Civ II is not actually implemented as what is printed/implied in places of the manual and Prima guide.

BTW, over a year ago (long before joining CFC), it took me a lot of testing to determine the the exact nature of how engineers do their work, which is why I was laughing so hard when I saw you pole engineers at "work".

I haven't tried nor been able to transform a square in one turn, I have only managed to go from grassland to road/railroad+irrigation/farmlands in one turn,

I see you've been cracking that whip on your engineer brigades, judging by some of the "determined" piles you have. BTW, normal terrain is transformed in 10 turns (10 man-days, or eng-turns). This means 10 turns of engineer work must be applied before the terrain will transform (Glaciers are 20).

So, you've irrigated and farmed terrain in one turn? Quite impressive! BTW, it takes a total of 9 Engineer man-days (eng-turns) to create a farmed, railroaded tile.

but usually I won't use more than 3-5 engineers on one square since it seems as if it doesn't speed it up that much with more. the turns have much more to do with the tranformation than the number of engineers.

BTW, to get engineers to do real work at more than 2X speed, esp. in transforming the terrain, is quite tedious and also error-prone for humans to consistently do. And yes, it is even possible to transform terrain in one turn...

I want to make this map into one big grassland amusement park and I'll probably do it, by 85AD when my SS lands -

I must say I truly look forward to seeing your grassland world in 85AD!! I believe that will be a game no one will likely forget, Shadowdale!!

But I never really keep any kind of record of this since I have no mathematic interest in it - most of what I do in this game is based on impulse and instinct

LOL, Civ II is a game of math, stored in orderly matricies, manipulated with (sometimes counter-intuitive, sometimes buggy) algorithms, and displayed with fancy graphics. For normal play, one need not consider these aspects.

It is my most profound recommendation to rely more on math, and less on your "impluse"!

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Some people have asked to see games from people other than the 'super' civers, so here ya go. Plus, I never got a chance to actually finish GOTM 8, so this will be the only way to share them with you guys.

I have put together a couple of saved game files to share with everyone. They are at 3000 BC, 2000 BC, 1000 BC, and 1 AD.

At 1 AD I have over 1000 points and approximately 60 cities.

 

[noughmaster]

Let's just say that they provide me a great deal of entertainment that evidently only a game programmer & mathematician can fully appreciate!

Ha! Ha! Yes, indeed!
Perhaps a special award for GOTM8 comedian. I might attach a few of my students' assignments as well.

 

[starlifter]

I'll cover this in a bullet-style format.

Items of note:

- For me, this GOTM literally dragged on, and simply was not fun after Sep 11th. I played it to 1 AD on the 15th in order to post the timeline & .SAVs for folks in the Forum, but didn't touch the game again until the end of the month (when I "had" to, to get it done).

- I experimented with trying to just end the game quick by skipping turns (See log). That does not work, as Engineers don't do their job if you skip the whole turn.

- The SS made the game drag on far longer than needed. Ironically, this is my earliest SS landing ever, yearwise. By far, it was not, turnwise... it landed in turn 266 or so... but Cheiftain has such a slow year progression, with 570 turns in this particular game.

- I often let the science rate just idle along at 30% to 40%. It could have been about 30 more FT advances, esp. if I had built more Freight from the smaller cities (PRB). By the 0050's, I pretty much quit using valuable Freight to carry the science research. I never had a triple or a quad advance, but those were possible at times.

- Trade commodities: Uranium appeared only 3 times... usually I see much more of it. Oil was by far the most valuable resouce, getting up to about 2,000 gold and science for M01-X12 trade vectors. The single most valuable trade was in 0047AD: Uranium C07-N05, 2086 gold.

- Pollution was very minor in this game, due to the Warlord level. At Deity, I would have been swamped in pollution if the Mass Transits, Recycling, and Solar Plants were put off for so long!! Probably less than 20 polluted tiles occurred in the whole game.

- My Ally (Sioux) used his engineer(s) to help build roads and Railroads in MY empire!!

- Only 128 cities were built, with no minor (smaller than size 12) cities. The two biggest were size 34's.


Scoring Notes & Point Analysis:

- The score progression is misleading... it could have been greatly increased sooner, buy building the wonders, starting the cities quicker, and not messing around with RR's & toying with the AI's after the 0020's.
- Engineers were disbanded, not joined (recovered about 150 points).
- City plans were for large, powerful cities (e.g., only one big city on an island, not two with more area).
- 27 planned major cities were discarded in the 0050's to end the darned game (could gain Approx 720 points).
- No minor cities (less than 12) were used, even at the end (could gain Approx. 340 points).
- No FCT was used.
- No overlap growth was used (could gain Approx 400 points).
- No terrain transformations were used (could gain over 2,000 points).
- All forests were not eliminated (lost about 100 points).
- The poles were not populated very much (points already accounted for).
- The SS was 102 points (lost 298 points), but more growth occurred enroute.
- In 1 AD, I decided to launch 1-turn SS for 2 reasons: Land the SS before 100 AD, and grow while the SS was enroute. I had the resources to build either 40 year, 70 point SS or a 60 year, 100 point SS (a full SS was not possible at the time). The final Civilization growth would have still been about the same at the end of 40 or 60 years. I did the 60-year SS, but in retrospect, the 40-year SS would have been far far better!
- Peace Dividend: I should have killed off the Celts, but the Senate would not go along. Eventually, I quit needling the Celts, since I did not want to lose the peace points if they attacked. Leaving Democracy to start a war was never considered, LOL.

TIMELINE

YEAR - Popluation, Score, Advances, Notes
========================================
0084 - SS LANDS (SS=102 points, Score=6096)
0083 - 320.0,5966; FT113,114; 100%Lux=5994 (Sioux SS = 11-3-3-1-1-0)
0082 - 320.0,5894; FT112; 0 Engineers
0081 - Speed Turn
0080 - 320.0,5894; FT108,109; 33 Engineers left...
0079 - Speed Turn
0078 - 320.0,5810; FT104,105; Killing Engineers... (No Little Cities)
0077 - Speed Turn
0076 - 320.0,5760; FT100,101;
0075 - Speed Turn
0074 - 320.0,5682; FT097; 10 years to land! Science very expensive; Killed 30 engs; Almost all improvements done.
0073 - Speed Turn
0072 - Speed Turn
0071 - Speed Turn

0070 - 320.0,5576; FT089,90; ...
0069 - Speed Turn
0068 - Speed Turn
0067 - Speed Turn
0066 - 320.0,5402; FT081; 82 (No more big freight shuffle...)
0065 - 313.2,5345; FT079, 80 Civ score flattens out, as cities reach their max size. (Normally, this would continue for longer, providing more cities were founded and comine online, terrain cleared, and small cities wedged/packed in).
0064 - Speed Turn, LOL
0063 - 299.5,5207; FT075;76; Try to end quick now
0062 - 291.4,5104; FT073,74; WOMENS SUFFERAGE
0061 - 284.1,4960; FT071,72; (128 cities)

0060 - 277.3,4886; FT069,70;
0059 - 267.0,3715; FT067,68; SKIP Part of turn; Convert 50% of cities to Capitalism. Note: "skipping" your turn causes all remaining work (on that turn) to go undone. I lost 3 turns of work from most of my Engineers Corps before I realized my stupid Engineers were not doing their jobs!!!
0058 - Skip Turn, for the slower sutff.
0057 - 176.2,3500; FT063; EXPERIMENT: For SPEED to end the game: SKIP last part of turn (70% sci)
0056 - 249.1,4523; FT061; 62
0055 - 241.7,4420; FT050; 60
0054 - 234.1,4315; FT057,58; STOPPED ADDING CITIES, with about 27 size 12+ cities left to found.
0053 - 226.4,4205; FT055;56;
0052 - 217.4,4103; FT053,54;
0051 - 209.7,4001; FT051,52;

0050 - 201.2,3878; FT049,50; 121 cities; 102engineers; MANHATTAN; SUN TZU; GREAT LIBRARY
0049 - 192.5,3715; FT047,48;
0048 - 183.9,3602; FT045,46;
0047 - 176.2,3500; FT043,44; Science 40%; Uranium C07-N05(2086-RECORD!)
0046 - 168.9,3396; FT042; Science 20%; Oil-X12-M01-1834g(record!)
0045 - 163.1,3276; FT041; Reduce Science, 10%!
0044 - 155.1,3181; FT039,40; (362); Killed all fanatics with stealth
0043 - 146.0,3063; FT038; Temp. Reduce Science to Exand!
0042 - 090.4,2043; FT036,37;
0041 - 132.0,2879; FT0034,35;

0040 - 125.6,2724; FT0032,33; (107cities/109eng)Sioux-Component#2; C14-g05-Uranium-(1510-Record) Oil-M01-X12-1792!-(Record) (Sci-40%[1T]~4,000cost)
0039 - 120.2,2635/2666; FT0030,31;
0038 - 114.3,2529; FT028,29; 97 cities; 115 eng/18 in prod_URAN-C07-Wi2-1440g
0037 - 110.2,2458; FT026,27; 2nd uranium()
0036 - 106.3,2336; FT024,25; FIRST URANIUM!(C14)
0035 - 103.3,2276; FT022,23; Sioux-Build SS Component!!!
0034 - 098.9,2213; FT020,21; 89 eng(14 prod); Senate won't allow killing of Celts.
0033 - 095.1,2126; FT018,19; (244) STATUE OF LIBERTY; Barb Fanatics attacking
0032 - 090.4,2043; FT016,17; (S-40%-2850b); Barb Fanatics
0031 - 087.4,1953; FT014,15; UNITED NATIONS (79 eng, 13 per turn)

0030 - 084.6,1869; FT012,13; (69 Cities now); Sci-40(1T,cost~2600)
0029 - 081.0,1803; FT010,11; MAGELLANS
0028 - 077.9,1685; FT08, 9,10; CURE-FOR-CANCER; Oil-M01-X11-1487g(record)
0027 - 074.9,1593; FT06 , 7; S-FT008 Killed Barbs-Stealth; Leader
0026 - 071.9,1527; FT04 , 5; S-FT006 ; Subvert Japs(148x8; SpyCapt); JAPS-Dead; Barbs Pillage
0025 - 070.2,1475; FT03; S-FT004 ;SETI; Killed barb ldr with Stealth; 4Partisans; Sci-40(1T)
0024 - 069.0,1411; FT02, S-FT003; (Will do no No Terraforming)
0023 - 067.6,1388; FT01; S-FT002
0022 - 065.4,1354; Fundy; S-FT001; Spice-M01-X11-1114g
0021 - 062.1,1313; S-Fundy; Japs-Sneak Attack! (Archer to my Rifleman!); Took Satsuma(got 168g; Senate CeaseFire); C02Wine-984g; Insist Celts Withdraw-Yes
0020 - 059.4,1290; Tax-70%, Sci-0%, Lux-30%; Japs-War; Took Edo, Bribed Kyoto; Senate CeaseFire;-----LAUNCH SS ------

WONDERS
Ancient: Pyramids (Captured from Japs), HG, Colossus, Lighthouse (captured from English)
Renaissance: KRC, Marco Polo, Michelangelos Chapel, Copernicus, Shakespeare's Theatre
Industrial: Leonardo's Workshop, JS Bach, Isaac Newton, Adam Smith, Darwin's Voyage
Modern: Hoover Dam, Apollo Program
Making: None

DEMOGRAPHICS: 44 cities; 55.96 million; 70%T-3278g/915g; 0%S(cost~1500); 30%L; 1198MTons/440pollution

0001 - (Score-1244, Turn 200); Stealth; S-Labor Union; APOLLO; Ameins Junk Freight - 508g; Amiens-Orl oil 1038g; Amien-Besancon Spice 803g; SS-23-1-1-2-2-2(63 years; Disbanded even Settlers to make it)

 

[Smash]

looks like a strong gold medal contender.

Its refreshing to hear you do find the game tedious at times.You actually used the end turn function!....there is hope for you

 

[Kev]

Well done as usual, Starlifter.

I have to admit, I played for a little while on this game and just couldn't deal with it. I thought about doing something different, but it was too late at that point to go for OCC or make any real try toward an early conquest.

I just bailed. I'll not be turning in a game for this GOTM, but I'm eager to being GOTM 9 and be more involved with the discussions.


EDIT: I was reading the earlier discussion on the engineers and how quickly they work when stacked.

I seem to remember that only two engineers would be allowed to work one square at any given time - that adding a third or fourth would not bring any added benefits. The exception would be if the engineer finishes its work in one turn or if the player stops the engineer.

An example: If you have 10 engineers numbered 1 through 10 on a single tile you could do the following: with engineer #1 and engineer #2 press the "O" command to change the terrain. Then, click on the stack and click on engineer #1 - taking him off the job. The engineer's work was still done as it was accomplished as soon as you pressed the "O" key (just as a road appears instatly when the "R" key is hit on grassland or plains). Then, click on engineer #3 and give him the "O" order of changing the terrain. With engineer #1 now off the job, #3 will be allowed to add its work. Now, do the same thing by taking #2 off the job by clicking and then adding #4. Do this down the line and you should be able to change a tile in a single turn - depending on the number of engineers you have on a tile.

I BELIEVE that is how it works, but it if I'm wrong it would not be the first time.

The only problem here is that it can be confusing to see which engineer is which within the stack.

 

[starlifter]

by Smash:

looks like a strong gold medal contender.
Its refreshing to hear you do find the game tedious at times.You actually used the end turn function!....there is hope for you

LOL... actually, I don't enjoy the tedious part of the game any more than others. In this game, by the time the 0050's came around, I was just wanting to end the game with around 4,000 points. The Skip Turn idea did not work like I thought it would, so I just ended the expansion and most of the Freight activity, and converted cities to Capitalism.

by Kev:

I seem to remember that only two engineers would be allowed to work one square at any given time - that adding a third or fourth would not bring any added benefits. The exception would be if the engineer finishes its work in one turn or if the player stops the engineer.

Right. Partially.

The work of engineers is not simultaneously cumulative, past the 2nd Engineer. You can put 1,000 engineers to work on one square, one after the other, and 10 turns of work will not be finished until the 5th turn. "adding a third or fourth would not bring any added benefits." is not correct, because the work is not "lost", just "delayed" until it can be "recovered" on the next turn. The work is only wasted if the engineer that completes the assigned work has more man-days than are necessary built up. For instance, if you need 3 man-days to irrigate a tile, but an engineer has 6 man-days stored, when you select "I" (or the computer lets that engineer try an move on that turn), a 7th day will be applies. But the job onoy needed 3 man-days. So 7-3=4 man-days will be lost, and not recoverable.

As you were pointing out in your post, there is a way to speed things up. If you methodically stop the work of the "oldest" working engineer, start a new one's work (thus now having 2 "working" engineers), you can continue applying work in one turn. NOTE: The act of stopping (in and of itself) an engineer does not "speed" things up.

All this is because the work is "stored" in the last engineer "used", not the terrain. When the most recently "used" engineer accumulates the necessary turns of work, the project is done. If you make any mistake at all, the pattern will be lost for the turn. The actual WORK will not be lost, however. On the next turn, all the prior work is still stored from the prior turn's bungled attempt to accelerate the job... and will be applied & the project done, if enough man-days (eng-turns) are accumulated.

Here is what I personally recommend for those that want the speed, which comes at the expense of micromanagemsnt... begin practicing with 3-turn jobs... namely, irrigation. Use teams of 3. Note each of their home cities, and place them all on the tile to be irrigated (do not start irrigating yet). Do not use the "wait" function at any time for these 3. Now, note their relative order when you click on the pile.

- Select 1st Engineer & do "I"
- Select 2nd Engineer & do "I"
- (now #1 and #2 have "i")
- click on the #1 engineer, thus stopping his - "work"
- (now you have only #2 showing "i")
- Choose the #3 engineer, and hit "I" (the job is now done)

The only problem here is that it can be confusing to see which engineer is which within the stack.

As you get familiar with this, and get a feel for the pattern the computer will scroll thru the pile with, you will find you can easily (but tediously) handle a pile of 10, in a consecutive manner. This allows a 10 man-day job to be finished in 1 turn. With practice and discipline, you can do even larger jobs. Plus there are more complex techniques for handling over 10, but even a 10-stack takes a lot of extra human real-time. It is much more efficient just to pile 2 engineers on a given job, and wait. Engineer work is already a time-consuming process. I use 3-stacks (irrigation) and 5-stacks (mining), and even 8-stacks (swamp) sometimes. But very rarely any 10+ stacks.

When you get really good at it, you will find that you can partially rush the job... the key is in knowing which engineer was the last used (and thus "contains" the stored work to date). When you master this, you can pre-charge an engineer with 9 man-days of work, and then move him (or her!) to a regular tile and the one engineer can thus transform a tile at one time!! You can even combine these groups for bigger jobs. Obviously, you can let an engineer "sit" working on a job for say, 4 turns, then move it to a hill, and "mine" it in one turn. Lots of combinations are possible!

For those that want the end-game tedium speeded up, the much maligned Airfield is a great timesaver. It combines some (but not all) benefits of roads, RRs, and Irrigation automatically, with only 2 engineers (or 2 eng-days). This saves micro-management of at least 7 eng-days .