GOTM Techniques, Cheats, Rules & Discussion Thread

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by starlifter
On the other hand, there are 3 other categories of production: Improvements, Wonders, and Spaceship Parts. Assuming there is at least 1 shield in the Prod Box, one shield costs 2g for Improvements, and 4g for Wonders and SS Parts. This cost does not change no matter how many are bought at a time. Hence, IRB and IPRB terms are meaningless, unless someone just likes clicking the mouse and passing the time. The 2 terms that apply to these 3 categories are only the RB and PRB.

Actually, Incremental rush buying can apply to at least improvements. the key is your statement "Assuming thee is at least one shield in the Prod Box..." If there are NO shields in the box, there is a benefit to incremental rush buying. Rushing an item when you have no shields costs double the "normal" cost of rushing shields. Therefore improvements cost 2g/s *2 = 4g/shield, and so on. If you want to rush something without disbanding a unit or waiting a turn to put shields in the box, incremental rush buying can still save you money.

The first example is for rushing improvments. If you haven't built them already you can rush one of the cheap improvements (temple, barracks: 40s) for 4g/s*40s=160g, then rush the rest of the improvement at 2g/s. This can save considerable cash when rushing expensive improvements.

You can even use a IRB of improvements to help rushing units. Once you lose the 10s and 20s units and the cheapest thing to rush is a dip/musket at 30s, rushing the 30s unit with nothing in the box costs 210g. You can rush a temple or barracks for 160g, switch production to dip (which will take half the sheilds leaving you with 20s) and then buy the next 10s for 25g giving you 30s for a total of only 185g, then you IRB the unit from that point.

I guess a similar approach could be used for rushing wonders (if you don't have any caravans). rush an improvement, to start the prod box, then switch to the wonder and buy it.

These are limited cases, but I have definitely used both of the first two techniques.

 

[starlifter]

by Tim:

the key is your statement "Assuming there is at least one shield in the Prod Box..."
...
These are limited cases, but I have definitely used both of the first two techniques

When the production box is empty and I'm in a hurry (with the extra gold), I use all 3 variations to get some starter shields in the box, to avoid the doubling penalty. The first two I use in almost every game I play.

Since the cost of buying is doubled if no shields are in the box to begin with, it is a very good idea to use the smallest increment possible (even for improvements, as you explained). Your explanation and illustration of it are quite good!

An easy to remember "rule" for improvements is: there is an 80 gold 'surcharge' to buy an improvement with zero shields in the box. The way I use it in practice is to ask myself is it worth 80 more gold to have an improvement one turn earlier. In late game, this answer (for me) is often yes!

So... if someone does not want to wait until the next turn for at least one shield to appear in the box, the exact overhead" cost will be 2*(40 - # shields produced) = up to 78g. The actual cost realized in the current turn is still 80g, however, because of the extra 2 gold per shield that a 40s improvement (Temple or Barracks) costs.

Personally, I pay the 80g surcharge quite a bit (when I can afford it), in new Democratic cities, in order to get their market, aquaduct, bank, supermarket, etc. going. In an instant city (found and join to size 3), I just consider the extra 80g per turn to crank out an improvement per turn as the cost of a fast-growing city.

For military units, the cost is variable, as you pointed out, depending on the techs you possess. An advantage to the Fundy tech & Fundy govt is that you have a 20s unit available, even in late game.

 

[Narz]

Is there any pattern to know when to throw a revolution (to switch govts.) on Emporer level? I think this is important, being that getting the swtich right away makes a huge difference in the end result and if some know the trick, all should know! I already wasted quite a few turns switching to Monarchy & Republic. Thanks!

- Narz

 

[starlifter]

Yes, it's called Odeo years. It is in the War Academy, too. But guess what.... look at my logs, and the log in this month's file... it has the Oedo years marked already for you!

Every 4th year is an Oedo year. If you discover a new gov't in an Oedo year, declare a revolution and you will be out of revolution that turn!

Otherwise, declare the revolution before an Oedo year, and you will have only one turn of Anarchy (just like SoL). Human gov'ts come out of anarchy in Oedo years .

 

[Xin Yu]

In GOTM 19 we can apply a trick: build a settler before the city gets to size 2. This is also possible in other games if you get enough cash from huts early on. What's the rule for this?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Originally posted by Xin Yu
In GOTM 19 we can apply a trick: build a settler before the city gets to size 2. This is also possible in other games if you get enough cash from huts early on.

Could you please explain what happens when you do that.

 

[Xin Yu]

Well, you get a settler but the city stays since it is the only city you have.

 

[starlifter]

That is OK, because Civ 2 will not let you disband your capital until a 2nd city is built. It's been used in other GOTMs. Its not an issue since the you get no advantage from it. If you were a size 2, you'd still be back to size 1. More importantly, you have to pay support for the settler... it is not free.

In essence, your capital is like Cheiftan level (no disbanding) until your 2nd city.

A very similar thing is your capital cannot be killed by barbs, if defended, until your 2nd city. Civ 2 just gives your 1st city certain considerations like these .

 

[Xin Yu]

No advantage? Let's say when your first size 1 city accumulates 20 food you build a settler. The next turn you'll have a size 2 city plus a supported settler. If you build the settler one turn later, you get a size 1 city plus a supported settler. That's one population point difference (100% if do not count the settler, or 50% if count the settler).

 

[starlifter]

No advantage? Let's say when your first size 1 city accumulates 20 food you build a settler. The next turn you'll have a size 2 city plus a supported settler. If you build the settler one turn later, you get a size 1 city plus a supported settler. That's one population point difference (100% if do not count the settler, or 50% if count the settler)

The food in the box is reset to zero when the box is full, and the city grows, which is normal. When a settler is produced in any city of any size, the food in the box does not change. This is normal game behavior... the difference is in micromanagement, spending gold to get there, counting the wheat to time it right.... basic micromanagement.

The result is different, but nothing abnormal or tricky is going on that I can see. Every routine decision in a game can have different outcomes, and some are better than others. You can do this same sort of thing to keep a size 8 or size 12 city at size 8 or 12 while producing settlers/engineers... if you time the micromanagement right. For instance, if you make a settler at size 12 with a food box almost full, you can have the city immediatly pop back to size 12 and continue using that 12th citizen. If a person waits a turn or two, the food box will fill, then you'll loose most of your food the next turn and get the warning that you need an sewer to grow. By micromanaging the food and changing the production turn by a day or two, you can gain an extra population (the setter).

So there is no Advantage gained... that is, the context is nothing gained on the AI or other people. It's simply the game operating normally and as advertized... by changing the production day, you get a better benefit one way than the other.

But to change that production day is not free. You are making 3 shields per day. Two extra food. One gold (two with colossus). So in 10 days, you better have that 40 shields done. But in 10 days, you only have 30. You must therefore spend gold or disband something or give up food and trade by putting a citizen on a forest.

For instance, take 2 parallel cases:

6 days: 12 food, 18 shields, 18 trade (Cit#1 on Whale)
8 days: 8 food, 16 shields, 8 trade (Cit#1 on forest)
(Size 1)
Next day: Settler, 0food in box, size 2, 0 extra net trade (wasted 8 days on forest to kill 8 food).

10 days: 20f, 30s, 30t (Cit#1 on Whale)
(Size 2)
2 days: 4f, 10s, 10t (Cit #2 on Whale)
Next day: Settler, 5 food in box, size 1, 16 extra net trade.

So it is not free, just another game decision and tradeoff to make. Its about 16 trade for 15 food. Pyramids vs. Colossus are similar in tradeoff. One gives you food, the other trade.

The original question was one about the rules... it's not an exploit or a even rules question: just choice, tradeoff, and game management. However, if there is interest in adding it to the list, I guess we could... but its sort of misleading to have it listed in the context of cheats (it's just a strategy), IMHO.

 

[grigor]

In regard to the Settler before Size 2 trick, it seems to be a double bladed strategy requiring a decision about resource allotment. as opposed, say, to the incremental rushbuy trick which has no game penalties other than time invested. Its efficacy also depends on the circumstances.

At first it seems a no-brainer, but on closer examination there is always a cost, albeit sometimes small. In GOTM19, for instance, disbanding the archer to make the size-1 settler means that hut-popping is slower and offence is weaker in the early game. In the Pyramids growth game, as shown so elegantly by Xin Yu in the GOTM19 spoiler thread, it is a great move. For a rapid conquest game it might not be as clear.

So I would be opposed to making it illegal.

 

[Xin Yu]

grigor, both you and Starlifter made a good point in that the settler before size 2 trick has a cost. But in GTOM 19 the situation is vastly in favor of doing so, since you can easily build a horsemen to explore. Archers have only move 1 so in several turns the horsemen will be able to cover the ground the archer might have done. Besides, an archer (30 shield) is too expensive to be used as a explorer, if it were a warrior I would not be so eager to disband it.

 

[starlifter]

At first it seems a no-brainer, but on closer examination there is always a cost, albeit sometimes small. In GOTM19, for instance, disbanding the archer to make the size-1 settler means that hut-popping is slower and offence is weaker in the early game. In the Pyramids growth game, as shown so elegantly by Xin Yu in the GOTM19 spoiler thread, it is a great move. For a rapid conquest game it might not be as clear.

I think part of my slow understanding of what's going on is the fact that I have not yet started GOTM19, and have not been in the spoiler thread to see what's up.

grigor, both you and Starlifter made a good point in that the settler before size 2 trick has a cost. But in GTOM 19 the situation is vastly in favor of doing so, since you can easily build a horsemen to explore. Archers have only move 1 so in several turns the horsemen will be able to cover the ground the archer might have done. Besides, an archer (30 shield) is too expensive to be used as a explorer, if it were a warrior I would not be so eager to disband it.

I am inferring that Xin Yu disbanded the archer & made a settler. If so, that is a valid game strategy, even to make a settler. But I don't yet have the context of the thread. I still have to decide what strategy I'm going to use this month, and get it going .

I take it that you guys would like this strat added to the list, so I'll add it this weekend . And since it has never been forbidden, then like other new things, it's allowed by default, unless the Admin (DoM) rules otherwise .

 

[grigor]

Xin Yu, I have been engrossed in your posts for several years and especially I love your ability to think clearly and devise optimal strategies for problems.

I agree that in the GOTM 19 opening problem, size 1 settler is the optimal strategy for a building game. In a rapid conquest game, what it gives up is at least one and maybe two huts before the settler and then horse could be built, in addition to the NONE Archer. If those huts were, say, a Nomad and a horse, exploring would be ahead. And if one of the huts had 50 gold, the archer would not require disbanding and the size 1 settler could be bought. On the other hand, if the huts were Masonry and Pottery, the position is seriously compromised. So disbanding the Archer involves less risk. But that is a solution to a specific situation involving an technique, not a cheat. It could be interesting to set up a bunch of problems involving early growth strategies which might involve the size 1 technique.

For instance, I considered founding on silk in the GOTM18 Fundy game so as to allow a size 1 settler. My instinct was that the slow growth from the city square and the delay in using the second NON settler for making a new city outweighed the extra size 1 settler, but I was not able to formulate a clear statement of rewards and benefits in that instance.

And on an unrelated issue, I am very interested in the continuation of your play of GOTM19 after 1800BC. Starlifter's profound infrastructure development at the expense of rapid ICS development has been giving tremendous results in these GOTM situations, and the speed at which he catches up due to it (after having four cities in 1AD) is breathtaking. When I tried the GOTM 19 Pyramid game your way I got stuck in my growth just about 1500 AD and couldn't find a coherent plan.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I was not even aware of this technique till starlifter explained it in this thread. The other day I got a chance to give it a try for myself and I found out it is not as simple as put forth by starlifter.

According to startlifter oceans and polar ice caps are the only things that are code 1. I found out that in GOTM20 the main continent is also code1. First I thought, may be that is because it is attached to the South pole. Then I tried GOTM 19. Things got worse: part of the South pole was code1 and part of it code29. Another weird thing I found was that the island which has a tile at location 20,4 is entirely code1.

For the most part each land mass, be it a continent or island, has a separate code. Inland lakes of small size (say less than 10) are always code63. But large inland lakes have their own unique code like islands do. I only found one exception to this rule:
The island which has a tile at location 56,4 in GOTM20 has code6; the big inland lake south of it is also code6.

Could someone please verify these and report back. My version of Civ2 is single player on Macintosh.

Given all of the above, map clicking is next to useless.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Originally posted by Xin Yu
we can apply a trick: build a settler before the city gets to size 2.

Thank you Xin Yu for this tip. I put it to use in GOTM20 and it put me ahead several turns.
Normally I would have gone as follows:

Day	Food	Shield	Arrows	Description
1-2	4	4	4	working shield grassland with river
3-4	6	10	8	working forest with river
 	 	 	 	Warrior produced
5-11	20	14	22	working shield grassland with river
 	 	 	 	City is now size 2
12	2	17	24	working shield grassland with river & another shield grassland
 	 	 	 	(I am guessing that the computer will pick this one.)
13-17	7	37	39	working shield grassland with river & forest with river
18	9	40	41	working shield grassland with river & another shield grassland

Instead I did this:

Day	Food	Shield	Arrows	description
1-2	4	4	4	working shield grassland with river
3-4	6	10	8	working forest with river
 	 	 	 	Warrior produced
5-6	8	6	12	working forest with river
7	10	8	14	working shield grassland with river
 	 	10	10	Rush buy a warrior and switch back to settler production.
 	 	 	 	This costs you 4 coins out of your treasury of 7
8-17	20	40	30	working forest with river

Not only was my settler ready a turn earlier but also I have a full food box; and my cost is just 11 arrows which I make up during the next 11 days when the new strategy has a city of size 2 and the old one a city of size 1.

Notice that there is nothing special about my surrondings in GOTM20. As long as you have both shield grassland and forest available to you, you can take similar strategies.

 

[Narz]

Last Few Posts

You guys are truly the cream of the Civ II crop. I consider myself pretty much the ultimate undisputed master of Civ I but I doubt I will ever rise to that title in Civ II. You all have it down to a science and for that I salute you! I'll stick with my map building and standard-rules scenerio creating. I will of course, play the G'sOTM but just for fun. By the way (warning : shameless plug coming ) I'd be curious to see how guys play out my current NMCC. I really enjoy seeing how people's various stratagies and ideas pan out in games, especially ones where the balance of the game is slightly thrown off (such as the last two GOTM's and my current NMCC) and they have to adapt their plans or possible adopt new ones to best exploit the new situation.

- Narz

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

Originally posted by Ali Ardavan
According to startlifter oceans and polar ice caps are the only things that are code 1. I found out that in GOTM20 the main continent is also code1. First I thought, may be that is because it is attached to the South pole. Then I tried GOTM 19. Things got worse: part of the South pole was code1 and part of it code29. Another weird thing I found was that the island which has a tile at location 20,4 is entirely code1.

You are correct that the ocean and the poles are not the only '1'. In fact, IIRC, there is always a land mass that is a '1'. I believe that the first land mass that is found when starting at (0,0) and going South one square and checking the entire row going East is the land mass '1'. If the first row has now land in it, go South another square and check it going East. That is why the main continent in GOTM is '1'. So, map clicking in GOTM 20 is mostly useless.

If you really want to see something wierd, look in GOTM 19 at (33,79), it is code '1', move one square East to (35,79) it is code '29', then go one more square East to (37,79) and it is code '25'.

 

[KingWilly]

Is the GOTM site going to have the rules & cheats details posted onto it?

The reason why I ask, is that it seems that many people are confused as to what is allowed and disallowed. I know that this and other forums contain ideas and "cheats" that are allowed/ not allowed, but not everyone (especially newcomers) reads every post or every thread and could miss out on these details.

 

[Narz]

Hi all. I am starting to better understand all the little nuances and tricks of the trade for Civ II. There is still one thing that has me quite perplexed though...

That is, how, by gifting techs, does one get quicker techs oneself? I completely do not understand this, both why it is a feature and how it works? Lightbulbs are lightbulbs aren't they, do you get extras when you give?

Also, how do you know who to give to? I am playing the current GOTM (#21), and am the Carthaginians, there are five other Civs in the world and my power is supreme (of course ). So how do I know who to give to?

Starlifter, anyone?...

Thanks!

- Narz