Gotm18-Celts Results and Congratulations

[Capt Buttkick]

Yes, great game Renata


Quite a few early spaceship launches.

 

[Txurce]

There has been a lot of discussion in the preceding posts about the need for specific goals from the beginning, in order to excel. This often starts with settling on a victory condition within the first turn or two (or sooner), but it seems to apply to all aspects of the game. What are you going to do once you succeed at what you're just starting, and how does one lead to the other?

One of the hardest parts about constantly looking ahead is the tendency to allow yourself to "catch up." For example, you set a goal like knocking off the Romans in GOTM18, then decide Egypt is next. Rome is knocked off, and now you have to trot all those Swordsmen west. Valuable turns are being lost if you didn't have Egypt in mind already, and mapped out your campaign trail so that your Swordsmen were headed west as soon as possible. On a more subtle basis, it could also apply to researching the tech tree with the help of the AI. Planning ahead also implies flexibility, and this really comes into play when trying to hang in there with the deity tech pace.

Taking early control of your victory path (and moving it along as quickly as possible) is what I think keeps good scores short of the spectacular ones. I always have a flexible plan that takes me through the whole game, but sometimes settle on a strat that doesn't take control right away. In GOTM19, I decided to use the GL to stay in the early tech race. It worked exactly as planned - but guaranteed that I wouldn't be pulling away, since it tied me to the mediocre pace of Rome and Carthage. I also decided on building (or rushing) the FP at an ideal place, which combined with my early peaceful ways to keep me from benefiting from an FP for way too many centuries. These are examples of seeming to plan ahead, but actually letting the game control the plan by setting the pace. As a result, anyone who built an early FP blew me off the road en route to the tech-race midpoint.

On a different topic: it was great to see the Jason system hold up so well when it finally came under assault.

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by Renata
Renata <-- seems to have picked the right victory condition this month

Kudos also to Renata, who played one of her best games yet during this month.

The Gotm18-Celts game was a Pangaea type map so this would cater a bit to certain styles of play and also emphasize conditions where the whole world was known and you could have a fast tech pace plus contact with 10 different entities almost from teh start of the game.

Contrast the character of the Gotm18 game against the extreme separation and isolations of Gotm17-Carthage (an in your non-discussion mode compare these character aspects to Gotm19-Ottomans that is currently in progress).

The Gotm18 results have examples of excellence sprinkled throughout the results list. We have many relative newcomer players who presented very strong game results. We have journeyman players who posted their best finish results ever and also who felt challenged enough to try new and innovative things.

It is most impressive to see a wide variety of strategic victory choices and to have each of these groups evolve into exciting "horse races". If you look at some of the results you will see that there are a number of paired games where one player may have beaten the other player by only a few turns but the game scoring also includes aspects of empire size and power that reflect who may be playing the stronger overall game. The Jason score balances these two factors masterfully. You can look at the results and say "I was faster but you were stronger and just a few steps behind." On any given day and in any given game, order of finish can be changed by how the players choose to focus on winning the game and by how effective they are at implementing the strategy they have chosen.

In the background, I am not 100% sure all of you know how truly fantastic all of YOUR staff volunteers really are. Every member of the team is working for you throughout the month to make sure that you have a reliable and enjoyable gaming experience that can then serve as the central campfire around which you find a number of enjoyable participation opportunities. Each member of the team does critically important tasks and we will be adding a number of additional staff members this month to help us support the game membership as we prepare to break through the magical 200 player milestone.

My personal thanks to all the primary staff members and all of the additional suuport staff for making this such an honorable and exciting place to be. - cracker

 

[TedJackson]

Congrats to everyone including Cracker and ALL the team.

Special congrats to Moonsinger for bringing all her cows home first

Couldn't get this game finished in time but I'm enjoying reading all about it.

regards

Ted

 

[Yndy]

Great game everyone. I'm glad to see new good players emerging due to experience or due to just finding about the game. I must say I'm a little dissapointed with my 32nd place, down from the QSC and from the former month. GOTM 18 also looks bad but I am planning a come back with GOTM 19.
Following on a topic earlier in April I see that the early milked 20K seems to outscore the full milk. That's a good to know strategy. I'm wondering how many will we see in GOTM 18 and on.

 

[CruddyLeper]

Congratulations to Moonsinger, and indeed all the top players. I've learned more in my first GOTM than just about any other place I can think of - and I still have a long way to go.

And MUCH respect to all those who submitted despite losing - without a few breaks of luck I would have joined you, dropping 50 odd places. See you next time.

Oh, I couldn't forget Cracker and the team - my heartfelt thanks for giving me my Civ education and the huge amounts of fun. Keep it up!

 

[LKendter]

I looks like starting with GOTM#20 I have to really look harder at my games. My last 2 game have my rankings falling through the floor.


I though I had a good game, but the score proves otherwise.

 

[JonathanValjean]

Moonsinger, you have completely silenced the detractors who thought that, once the Jason system was implemented, you would cease to reign at the top. What they didn't realize was that in order to have such high-scoring milked games, a player must have an incredible amount of skill. You certainly have a tremendous amount of skill, as evidenced by your return to supremacy. In your earlier games, all that you did when you milked was to show painstaking attention to detail and an infinite supply of patience. Congratulations on such a great game!

Bamspeedy, congratulations on another exceptional performance! As the author of so many fine articles in the War Academy, it is no surprise to see you consistently at the top.

Sirpleb, all victory conditions!? Truly amazing! Great job!

Cracker, Aeson, and Creepster: thanks for all of your efforts. To have gotten both the QSC and these results out so promptly is definitely above and beyond the call of duty. In fact, as volunteers, anything you do is above and beyond. Thanks so much!

 

[mad-bax]

Great job Moonsinger. How did you stop anyone else going for a 20K win?

There were so many amazing games this month, the spoilers were a great place to be.

If your names on the list, congrats.

 

[Mark Cutt]

Great experience! 187 submissions is a huge number!

Thanks to all the GOTM staff and congrats to the top player for their unbelievavle performance.

I was 49th! Not bad but I plan to be higher in the rank with GOTM19.

 

[OneFastWarrior]

Congrats to all you outrageously talented players. I thought I was going to be last this month, but I was only next to last.. lol at myself. However, I will keep playing and submitting in hopes of one day winning on a level that is worthy.

And the team that puts so much time into the gotm's is truely awesome... keep up the great work.

 

[Txurce]

Shillen, that was a terrific effort, putting you right up there in the stratosphere. With regard to a comment you made elsewhere... are you sure that "milking" your game to 2050 noticeably increased your score? Once you were done, did you try replaying and seeing if an earlier finish would have been much different?

 

[cracker]

Txurce and Shillen,

I think you need to look at the comparable games around Shillen's game to get a perspective of whether you think any interpretation of score pushing or milking may have helped Shillen's game.

Shillen was at 8th place with 18,335 raw points and 9040 Jason score.

Ronald was just behind at 10th place with 8,012 raw points and 8703 Jason score but finished in 1520AD instead of 2050AD.

Shillen played an additional 246 turns to gain 337 points which does not translate into a great of points per turn investment.

Using the score calculator, we can input the raw score and year for Ronald's game and then move the year forward to see how the Jason score increases if we were able to do things in Ronald's game to spead up the victory date by a few turns. If Ronald could have improved his victory date by 8 turns to get it down to 1460AD then his game would have outscored Shillen's game that was milked to some degree.

Shillen's game is out in the time range where it takes an increase of 25 rawpoints by milking to increase the resulting Jason score by just 1 point. Ronald's game on the other hand is much closer to the optimal victory curve and just requires two additional raw scor poinst to raise his Jason score by 1 point.

 

[Txurce]

Cracker, Ronald's game was the comparison I had in mind as well - and you answered all of my questions. Thanks.

 

[hotrod0823]

I though I had a good game, but the score proves otherwise.

I don't think you can say a game was good or bad just based on score. You set a goal and accomplished it. I also think if you play your games with the same rule set you have in all our LK series you limit your scoring potential. I play by the same set of rules that have been set out in most SG games. This is by choice and I believe that it can effect the scoring. Chosing not to break 20 turn deals, make phony peace, ROP abuse, Free Palace Jump, etc.

I don't know how to have a huge ingame score so to me it isn't important how high the score is. In all the LK games we have played together I don't think Scoring the highest we could was ever the goal. These games should be no different.

 

[Moonsinger]

Great game everyone. Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement and many thanks to the GOTM staffs for hosting another enjoyable month.

Bamspeedy and SirPleb had me worried a little bit there around 1020 AD since they were both around 1000 points ahead of me. I had no idea what Bremp and Ribannah was up to until after I submitted my game. I was very fortunate this time because I was the only one going for the 20K Cultural. Btw, I posted my final score in the third spoiler thread; so there was really no big secret from me.

---

Originally posted by Yndy
Following on a topic earlier in April I see that the early milked 20K seems to outscore the full milk. That's a good to know strategy. I'm wondering how many will we see in GOTM 18 and on.

May be the following statistic from my game that may help you deciding on the best victory condition for your next game. Personally, I think the best Jason Score is mostly based on the map type; that means the 20K and 100K Cultural may be best on a pangaea map, but not for the Archipelago and so on.

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by LKendter
I though I had a good game, but the score proves otherwise.

First of all, if you had fun then you had a good game. If the game was different and in some way memorable, then you had a good game.

I you look at the result in the big picture you have a unique opportunity here. The changes we have made to the scoring system and the increased emphasis on discussion and constructive comparison are beginning to provide you something that you just haven't had full access to in the past.

You have a the good fortune to have participated in a game where you have a number of excellent comparative references that can let you look at you game objectively and say that you did some things very well. You can also look at similar games and say that some players may have pursued the same or similar objectives and perhaps done things a bit differently and perhaps got to the objectives quicker and in a stronger position.

Don't look at the results table and be downtrodden just because you were not in one of the top 10 positions in the game. There are world class players in these games doing some near to perfect and highly precise things.

Here are the top 13 games in your peer victory group pulled out of the results table (plus Moonsinger's and Shillen's games):

    Player          Raw    Date   Jason  QSC U/B+I
 1  Moonsinger20k 14736	1758 AD   11879	 
 2  Ribannah       9940 1250 AD   11450
 8  Shillen	  18335	2050 AD	   9040
10  Ronald	   8012	1520 AD    8703  715/1802 
12  Yurian	   8863	1620 AD    8520
	 
18  Karasu	   6245	1545 AD    7678  835/2178
20  Mad-Bax	   6585	1605 AD    7485  875/1971
26  RufRydyr	   8686	1792 AD    7065  660/1568
35  Offa	   7418	1764 AD    6865  675/1526 
40  civ_steve	   4860	1620 AD    6547  710/1631
	 
60  jeffelammar	   4844	1768 AD    5534  730/1656 
67  LKendter	   5042	1794 AD    5238  690/1968	 
70  Pigumon	   4676	1790 AD    5117  660/1804 
71  Man of Kent	   8007	1926 AD    5080  580/1534 
73  Spencer Roff   5684	1830 AD    5048

(Shillen's game is in there as a reference but really does not belong in much of the comparative analysis because it is a significantly different approach)

Recognize this list of a dozen+ games for the true miracle that it is. You have a dozen very good players all pursuing a similar victory condition on the same map circumstances and all by independent choice.

The raw score number that you see in the second column is essentially an oversimplified reflection of the average productive population and territory that the player was able to sustain in the game up to the point of the victory condition.

Your victory date is almost the same as Offa's game but his raw score indicates that he was able to build a civilization that sustained 50% more population and territory than you were able to sustain by the same point in history.

Moonsinger's victory was by a different condition but her date is again almost identical to yours and Offa's and her average population/territory is double Offa's and nearly three times as high as yours.

Civ_Steve, Mad-Bax, and Yurian also provide an excellent comparative cluster because they all finish within the same 3 or 4 turns but again we see some indicators of strong performance differences in average productive population and territory as the measures of civilization strength. Players in this group were pursuing the same strategic objective that you pursued but they finished 50 turns earlier in the game and scored higher.

Ronald and Karasu also played strong culture games and they finished approximately 70 turns ahead of your date with larger average populations and territories.

How did these groups of players consistently get to the objective quicker and with more toys and party guests in a larger hot tub??

I also look over to the Qsc18 Scoring Results and pull out the data that you see in the far right column for Units/Buildings+Infrastructure to see that you were right in the hunt with all the other players at the 1000BC mark. I believe that the difference in your game may reside in expanding too slowly in the mid-game and not slamming down every possible city to grab the cheap early temple and cathedral even when they would not be required just so you could grab more culture, more population, and more territory at an extreme pace.

If we pulled a special set of data for the culture games in the table and just graphed the cumulative data for temples and cathedrals (plus to a secondary extent Libraries and perhaps Universities) we would see that the earlier games are really slamming those improvements onto the map like Jesuit missionaries with a purpose.

In all of this, do not loose sight of the fact that for every player you see in the GOTM results table there are at least 200 other Civ3 players that will fill up lower sections of the results tables in an attempt to play a strong culture game. We know from the public comments and data that only approximately 30% of all the Civ3 players can regularly win Culture victories on Monarch or Emperor level games. So you are in select company and have the luxury of Monday Morning Quarterbacking to pick and choose the pieces of the other games in your peer group that you may wish to incorporate into your future games.

 

[Yndy]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
Maybe the following statistic from my game that may help you deciding on the best victory condition for your next game. Personally, I think the best Jason Score is mostly based on the map type; that means the 20K and 100K Cultural may be best on a pangaea map, but not for the Archipelago and so on.

Looking at the table I am surprised to see that SS is pretty good as well. I have to remember to keep such a table when I go for high score.

 

[SirPleb]

Congratulations Ribannah, Bamspeedy, and Bremp!

And Moonsinger, special congratulations to you for an awesome game!

It is wonderful to see the number of games submitted this month, and so very many victories!

 

[Karasu]

A great GOTM!

I didn't manage to participate in the spoiler threads, so I had no clue on what would happen.

I was amazed by the variety of games and scores. Fewer Space Races, and milked games that reappeared to stand alongside the other victory conditions without any advantage nor penalty.

So, I think our first congratulation should go to Aeson for a really outstanding scoring system.


Moonsinger -your game is really amazing. I have only tried once the 20k victory, but I'll keep this in mind for my next attempt.

And Ribannah. Wow! I tried the same finish as yours, and I really did my best... but took 300 years longer.

SirPleb's game is also one of the ones that impressed me the most. All victory conditions means you can really do whatever you want... :worshp:

Renata! Yes, you did pick the right victory, and you played really well: I really need to speed up the PoH updating now, so you can look at your award!!