Gotm19-Ottomans Pre-Game Discussion

[Moonsinger]

No early war for me. I will play it safe (as usuall) by waiting to get both horseman and swordman before my first war. Even if I have a stack of swordman, I usually back them up with horsemans. My strategy has always been not to overpower the AIs but to take advantage of the terrain. Therefore, I have no problem with going against an adversary that is more powerful than me. For example, I would try to avoid moving my short range units (such as swordman) within range of the AI counter attack. I use horsemans to destroy the road then retrieve so that the AI won't have a chance to counter attack. Of course, my long range or fast units are well protected by my short range units. In order for the AI counter attack, they must first move within range. If they do that, my SOD will have their first shot of destroying them. If their stack is bigger and stronger than mine, I can always retrieve and let them to chase after me for awhile. Of course, this seem like an exploit because the human players would never waste their time to chase after a stack of units that they have no change of catching up. However, what else can I do? The last time I check, retrieving from battle when we have no chance of winning is a valid military tactic. If running away is an exploit then I may as well quit playing Civ3. (This is one of the main reason why I'm not motivated to write another strategy article. If a strategy works so well, some people will label it as an exploit.) Anyway, that is one of my most frequent tactic and of how I'm usually able to stand up against an enemy that is much more powerful than me and of how I can be able to wear out the AI's SOD.

PS: The key to winning the war is very simple: must minimize our lost and maximize our enemy lost.

 

[alamo]

@zagnut, MadScot:

I believe that you just need the current pre-game package for switching to PTW for the first time.

Assuming you have all the previous graphics, the critical piece will be the new PediaIcons.txt that calls out these units.

Of course, the proof is in the loading of the test game: gotm19_graphics_test_ptw.sav

@Moonsinger:

Retrieve is a retreat, I presume. Are you playing PTW? I am curious to know if the AI deals with this hit-n-run any better in PTW.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by CruddyLeper
Here's my predictions for rival civs, given that Keltoi and Carthage are 2 out of the 7.

1) Greece

2) India

3) Egypt

4) Germans

5) Russia

In addiction to your prediction, I have a feeling that Persia and Rome are near by. There has to be some civs with an early special UU like like the Imortal or Legionare for us to deal with.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by alamo
@Moonsinger:

Retrieve is a retreat, I presume. Are you playing PTW? I am curious to know if the AI deals with this hit-n-run any better in PTW.

I just bought PTW last week and haven't played with it yet. The GOTM19 will be my first PTW.

PS: While we are on the subject, which patch of PTW (v1.14 or 1.21) is best for the GOTM?

 

[Bamspeedy]

Originally posted by jack merchant
No-one has won an Always War game on Emperor that I know of - not even Sirian. On a small map it's likely worse because the free units will reach you sooner.
However, I called Zwingli a Don Quixote for the 2CC in GOTM18, and the windmills didn't do all that well against him either

Really? I thought Arathorn pulled off an AW on emperor. Maybe I'm mistaken. Sirian puts too many restrictions on himself that would make it much harder for him to do it.

It would all depend on the map and how many civs start on our continent. An AW game is pretty easy if only 1 civ starts on your landmass, or you start alone, due to the AI's inability to make successful naval invasions. Since we don't know the map parameters, I admit it probably wouldn't be a good idea to even try this (it may end up being a pangea ).

 

[Txurce]

In an AW game, do you have to do all of your research by yourself? Or does the AW apply only to units encountered, versus communications bought? I ask because otherwise it seems as if staying close on tech would be very difficult on emperor, and impossible on deity.

Moonsinger, the detailing of why you avoid early rushes, and why you favor combined arms, even in the early game, is very interesting. I'd certainly look forward to any more articles.

 

[rabies]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
(This is one of the main reason why I'm not motivated to write another strategy article. If a strategy works so well, some people will label it as an exploit.)

Hi Moonsinger,

I mostly just read posts here and never really participate in the discussions, but I think I may be speaking for more than just myself when I say that any strategy article written by a player your caliber would be greatly appreciated. Please don't let those people with extreme opinions on what is 'fair' and an 'exploit' in the game sway you from the way you play your game and sharing those tips with others. Dare I say there may be a greater number of players who feel the same way as you regarding what is and what is not an exploit.

 

[OneFastWarrior]

Well, I tried a little practice on Emporer level last night (only played this 1 time before) and I don't think I will initiate any early War, If I am attacked( I presume this will happen) I will try to have my cities well defended(up to 3 Spearmen in cities), I will try to build as many cities as possible early on(maybe I can pop rush 1 by cutting forest?) I don't know if I want to explore very much, If I get in a war I will attack and hopefully be able to sue for there map and maybe get some slave workers in the process.:slay:

I probably won't do very well, but, Man I am learning mare and more by the day. Maybe someday it will pay off

I'll Take Moonsingers Advice on drink more milk, But 1st I need Cows. Must have Cows!!

Anyway, I hope to keep getting more good advice here before tomorrow!!

 

[Shillen]

Originally posted by Txurce
In an AW game, do you have to do all of your research by yourself? Or does the AW apply only to units encountered, versus communications bought? I ask because otherwise it seems as if staying close on tech would be very difficult on emperor, and impossible on deity.

Yes, you pretty much have to do all research yourself. You can usually make trades the first turn you meet another civ, but then you have to immediately declare war. Since the AI's will trade contacts around, unless it's a navigation-required map you'll probably meet all the civ's before you even get to mapmaking. You'll be lucky to trade for 1 or 2 techs and then you're on your own. The GL is almost required in the ancient age, but once that's obsolete you have to research yourself. Not only that, but you'll have to do so while in a monarchy, because you won't be able to withstand the war-weariness of a republic. Also since you probably declared war on everyone before Map Making you'll have no idea where anything is or where the enemy units are coming from until you explore it yourself. And the shear number of enemy units is quite overwhelming. It definitely makes the game much harder. An emperor AW game is definitely harder than a straight deity game.

 

[OneFastWarrior]

Originally posted by rabies


Hi Moonsinger,

I mostly just read posts here and never really participate in the discussions, but I think I may be speaking for more than just myself when I say that any strategy article written by a player your caliber would be greatly appreciated. Please don't let those people with extreme opinions on what is 'fair' and an 'exploit' in the game sway you from the way you play your game and sharing those tips with others. Dare I say there may be a greater number of players who feel the same way as you regarding what is and what is not an exploit.

Here, Here!!

I say down with anyone who puts your stategy down!

I listen to all that you say!! I value your thoughts and advice and strategies

 

[Renata]

I'll add my voice the chorus of encouragement for you, too, Moonsinger. I'm one of those who finds a couple of the techniques you've come up with exploitive, but by all means, creativity should be encouraged. Keep thinking.

Renata

 

[Greebley]

Originally posted by BillChin
In my experience the AI does not attack if I only have one city and no settlers. On Emperor this may be a saving grace if there are hostile neighbors nearby. Once the granary is complete warriors will come out quick enough, if needed. However, a warrior rush is not a good plan on Emperor because the AI starts with five free units.
+ Bill

The AI will attack. One of my recent games on emporer, I sent out my warriors. I wasn't paying attention, and one of the other civs took out my capitol while I was building the granary, resulting in a very early loss.

I am wondering if this map will have more land than a "normal" small random map in a similar manner to GOTM18. My guess is "yes". Otherwise 8 civs is really crowded (a normal small map can only have 6). The amount of land might more nearly approach a standard map than a small one.

--------------------

As someone who recently switched from Monarchy to Emperor, I can give a few tips. These will probably all be very obvious to those that have been reading the forums any length of time:

Avoiding disorder was a problem for me. One thing I tried early on was to follow along with an empire quick game. When I reached size 2, I didn't notice and went into disorder. So I restarted the game from scratch to try again. I went into disorder 2 more times as I would forget to check by the time, my start town grew. Finally on the 4th restart, I remembered and adjusted my Lux rate. When the city grew to size 3 it went into disorder and I gave up in disgust and went to bed.

Raising ones Luxury early on rather than creating a entertainer or building a temple or even keeping a warrior home is a strong strategy. It costs 1 gpt to keep the town content for each size point. This compares to 60 shields for a temple, 2 food for an entertainer, or later contact with other civs if you keep your first warrior home.

Early contact with multiple civs can give a huge advantage. I am still trying to learn about this one, but knowing two civs who don't know each other is a huge trading boon. The contact itself is valuable for trade, and you can get multiple techs for the cost of one.

For monarch and below I didn't really think much about tech trading. It becomes important though on the higher levels. If you can get a tech that not everyone has it costs more, but then can be back traded for other techs. For example, say there are 2 civs, both that have bronze working, and one has mathematics. Before I would get bronze working as I could afford it sooner. But if you can get mathematics, you can trade it for bronze working and get both. With seven opponents, you could get 6 techs for the cost of 1. This is obvious if you think about it, but for the easier difficulties, you don't have to. Or you could pick up some cash or world maps.

In conjunction with above, it is advantageous to keep an eye out for "good deals" by checking diplomacy often. The cost of a tech can vary greatly based on how many civs have it. So you may not be able to get a tech when only 1 civ has it, but you can when 3 civs have it. If you trade for it then, you have 4 other civs to "back trade" it with.

Selling your world map can be worth alot of money. I am not sure how this rule works on small maps, but in some casesl if you have units doing new exploring, and/or get other civ's maps, you can double your income per turn by doing this.

As serveral people have mentioned/implied, the free tech you get when switching ages can be a huge trading tool if you can get it before the other civs all have it. For example, getting currency vs monarchy; if currency is the last tech you need for the next age, you may be able to trade the middle age tech for monarchy plus sell the tech for other techs or cash.

Complex trades are a lot of fun when you can pull them off

 

[Txurce]

Shillen, thanks for the lowdown on AW games. One way to look at it is that it's a domination game: you go to war in the ancient area as usual, grow some, get the GL and research chivalry, then grow some more, hit the tipping point, and hit domination no later than cavalry. Monarchy wouldn't kill you with the GL if your end point is military tradition. The hardest part seems to be reaching that critical mass where you have enough of a military in the ancient era to fight off invaders, so you can pick off the AI civs one at a time while they're in that passive bloody-nose stage.

This will be my third GOTM and fifth 1.29 game, but the first in which I wasn't testing the Mac game, and therefore unable to fully participate in this discussion. It's been really helpful to consider other strategies, and ask questions about them. Everyone's collegiality is greatly appreciated.

 

[alamo]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
... PS: While we are on the subject, which patch of PTW (v1.14 or 1.21) is best for the GOTM?

Most of the serious patching was on the MP part, so I don't think it makes that much difference.

Read all about it: Patches (scroll down)

My suggestion is to play a few informal games BEFORE starting the GOTM. My first impression was a significant improvement in the AI strategy. Also, there are several new features to get acquainted with - new civs, stock exchange, civil defence, the internet, outposts, radars, etc.

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by BillChin
In my experience the AI does not attack if I only have one city and no settlers. On Emperor this may be a saving grace if there are hostile neighbors nearby.

I just played a 1.21 patch game on a small world. Germany who gets free archers as there offensive unit attacked my single city city that had no settlers on the map.

 

[hotrod0823]

PS: While we are on the subject, which patch of PTW (v1.14 or 1.21) is best for the GOTM?

It will be interesting to see in this game what free techs everyone gets. In 1.14 it is heavily weighted to Mono, Nationalism and Rockets. In 1.21 it is random and you could endup with a dud or a winner. I haven't really noticed to many other significant changes in 1.21. I have been playing both since 1.21 came out.

 

[Moonsinger]

Thank you everyone for the encouragement.

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Originally posted by OneFastWarrior
Well, I tried a little practice on Emporer level last night (only played this 1 time before) and I don't think I will initiate any early War, If I am attacked( I presume this will happen) I will try to have my cities well defended(up to 3 Spearmen in cities), I will try to build as many cities as possible early on(maybe I can pop rush 1 by cutting forest?) I don't know if I want to explore very much, If I get in a war I will attack and hopefully be able to sue for there map and maybe get some slave workers in the process.:slay:

Since you are expecting to lose this game anyway, it's so much easier for me to give advise. No offend but, if you build a lot of spearmen for defense, you will definitely have a hard time winning this game. Chances are the AIs will declare war on you or worst, they all will gang up on you. Since you have been very kind to me, I make up the following story especially for you.

Another key to win a game (just pretty in any computer game or in real life battle) is to understand our opponents so that we can exploit their weaknesses. Now before any one get all work up over the word "exploit", let me explain: Everyone who live in this world do it. For example, if you go to a job interview and knowing that if you dress up nice and not wearing too much make up, your future boss may pay more attention to you; therefore, you dress up nice and not wearing too much make up. In a way, you are exploiting your oportunity to impress your future boss, but I see nothing wrong with it. This is the kind of exploitation that I'm talking about.

Ok now, let's get back to topic. Here is something you may want to do in your game.

Try to understand AI's behavior. For example, the AIs don't just wake up one day and decide to declare war on you. They declare war on you for many different reasons. One of those reasons is that because they think you are weak. Therefore, by spending time building up your defense with a lot of spearmans, you are in fact showing them that you are weak; therefore, they will attack. Here is an example of what the AI may be thinking about you after a certain number of turn:

Warrior -> cost 10 shields to build
Spearman -> cost 20 shields to build

Therefore, the spearman will take twice as long to build comparing to the warrior. Since AI doesn't have feeling like you and me, to them they are really all about numbers. In this case, they may think 2 warriors is equal to the power of 1 spearman. Assuming that you have only 1 city and it's producing only 1 shield per turn: after 100 turn, you would be able to produce the max of 5 spearmans. On the other hand, (same assumption), I would be able to produce the max of 10 warriors. If I am the AI, what do I think about you after 50 turns?

After 50 turns, you would have 2 spearmans and I would have 5 warriors. Well, if the strength of two warriors is equal to 1 spearman (calculation based on shield cost), I would definitely think that I'm stronger than you. In the meantime, if Bamspeedy or SirPleb (another AI just like me) has also been producing the 5 warriors (what can I say, we AI do think the same), now we all think we are stronger than you; therefore, we would definitely attack you or making you to pay tribute.

Now let say that I decide to attack you because I think you are weak. It just so happens that I get lucky and my brave warriors manage to kill one of your spearmans. Now, you have only 1 spearman left. Since I'm not the only AIs you have to deal with, what do you think the other AIs are thinking about you now? Of course, you are a lot weaker now (just remember that the AIs know exactly how many units you have left without the help of the Spy Agency) .... so they will declare war on you too ... As you see, you are going down hill from this point forward because all the AIs are ganging up on you. However, by understanding how the AI think, you could have easily avoid all that wars by just simply build the 5 warriors from the beginning like the rest of them. Therefore, no AI declares war on you -> no power lost on your part -> AIs won't gang up against you, etc.

Note: What I am telling so far is just one simple aspect of the game. There are a lot of other factors involve. However, as you play, you will learn more and more about them every day. And I'm sure one of these days, I'm sure the Emperor or Deity level is just like having picnic in the park for you.

 

[hbdragon88]

Originally posted by Moonsinger


In addiction to your prediction, I have a feeling that Persia and Rome are near by. There has to be some civs with an early special UU like like the Imortal or Legionare for us to deal with.

So...a strong UU.

Do I take my chances? Better not with emperor. Last thing I want is to win that QSC award [getting killed before 1000bc]. Scaling demands are out of the question here...

...perhaps I should scrap my building style and start pumping out units in all cities.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by hbdragon88
So...a strong UU.

Do I take my chances? Better not with emperor. Last thing I want is to win that QSC award [getting killed before 1000bc]. Scaling demands are out of the question here...

We were just guessing...there may not be any strong UU near by. However, in the worst case, we can always beg for mercy. The AIs are usually very merciful. Just give them whatever they demand and they will go away.

 

[zagnut]

Tomorrow is the big day and I plan to start early. So this is my last post.

I also just purchased PTW, Moonsinger, and have played about 6 early games (none beyond about 1000 BC) at Emperor level. I think your analysis about what the AI thinks of your strength is right on. In all of my games I built very few city improvements. One or two granaries and a couple of barracks. I spent most of my resources pumping out as many settlers, workers and warriors as possible. Maybe I built a spearman or two, no more. I only remember being attacked by the AI once in any of those games. The AI apparently paid attention to my many warriors. They certainly paid attention when I upgraded them to Swordsman.

On the issue of how the game is going to go, I agree with those who are planning to be wary of the AI on this map. It is a small map. Usually a small map provides 5 other opponents. On this one we have 7. That indicates to me that we are going to run into our neighbors soon. Also, since we are at Emperor and at a production disadvantage, the AI will probably expand faster than we can. This all indicates to me that we will not be able to plan for as many cities as usual before the magic QSC date. With a small world and a fast expanding AI taking a lot of that scarce land, I would think 6 cities at 1000 BC may be the most we can expect.

Cracker says be flexible and aggressive. Cracker speaketh not unless he wanteth to be heard. We should listen to the great sage:
1. Get your Warriors out there to explore.
2. Push your boundaries in the direction of whatever resources they find.
3. Don't use the strategy you always use.

Good luck everyone. See you in the first spoiler.