Gotm21-Melee - PREDATOR Naval Movement

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by pterrok
So what this means is that there will NOT be very much ocean at all--it'll all be Sea. Or else the coast will extend out 3 or 4 or 5 tiles so that by the time you get past it the ocean bonus just offsets the slower coast pace when the total crossing time is compared to Open or Conquest games.

It seems very likely that water spaces adjacent to land will be coast, and those adjacent to coast will be sea, and everything else will be ocean. Same as every other Civ3 map.

 

[pterrok]

I thought you'd get the extra coastal tile with the Lighthouse, but I wanted some verification!

So that makes the Lighthouse a huge priority for Predators since the Greek Isles are just that--islands! And though I'd expect them mostly to be separated by coast I bet there will be a case where there's some Sea in there to disrupt a trade routes.

Actually, I take that back. The Predators will NEED to build the Lighthouse just to be able to move around and the other classes will NOT need it since there WON'T be Sea squares disrupting the trade early like in the Carthage game. So it'll be a further handicap to the Predators.

Sigh. I HATE the sea...

 

[denyd]

We could be dealing with a close to reality setup - the Med - where all the local water is mostly coast, with some sea. In that case the Predators would be saddled with slower than usual ships and the Great Lighthouse would not be the big boost it might have been with more ocean available. The advantage of being able to cross short distance water would be offset by the time it takes to get there. I also expect many hills & mountains forming natural barriers to contact with other Civs.

With the Diety bonus for the AI in the Predator class, getting contact with other AI's to trade will be a must, unless you like defending with spears / pikes against tanks!!!

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by pterrok
The Predators will NEED to build the Lighthouse just to be able to move around and the other classes will NOT need it since there WON'T be Sea squares disrupting the trade early like in the Carthage game. So it'll be a further handicap to the Predators.

I don't see the big deal. With a movement of 6, a galley can move two coast spaces normally, or three with the lighthouse. How's that going to make a huge difference to your game?

And why is it a handicap, if all of the computer players have the same limitation on their movement?

 

[denyd]

DaviddesJ,

On Predator, without the Great Lighthouse, you'll run the risk of losing your galley on most every turn you leave the coast. If you have a coast-sea-sea-coast crossing, you'll need to spend 1 turn each way on the sea, so on average most galleys, won't be coming home from such a trip (odds even worse if you add in barbs & squids!!!)

Deny


Sounds like a great map to be the Vikings!!!

 

[CruddyLeper]

Originally posted by cracker
All three classes will be available in both Civ3v1.29 and in PTWv1.14/v1.21.

Thanks folks! Maybe this time I will lose... but then if I learn more that could be a good thing.

Never even built the Lighthouse, so this is going to be a steep learning curve.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by denyd
If you have a coast-sea-sea-coast crossing, you'll need to spend 1 turn each way on the sea

Nope. From the coast, move 2 to enter the 1st sea, move 2 to enter the 2nd sea, move 3 to enter the coast, stop.

You can even move coast-sea-ocean-sea-coast in a single turn, without the Lighthouse.

 

[denyd]

You're right, I was counting the coastal move from the city, but if you're already on the coast it's a safe move.

I'm betting a couple of predator players move the galley from port to coastal (+3) then to sea (+2) and to sea (+2) and lose the galley instead of port to coastal end-move, next turn to sea (+2) to sea (+2) to coast (+3).

For the sake of sanity, let's hope the barb galleys & squids have the same speed restrictions.

 

[Txurce]

Originally posted by denyd
We could be dealing with a close to reality setup - the Med - where all the local water is mostly coast, with some sea. In that case the Predators would be saddled with slower than usual ships and the Great Lighthouse would not be the big boost it might have been with more ocean available.

Galleys move at the same coastal speed at all levels, so there is no downside there to playing Predator.

We do not know whether the Lighthouse's movement bonus applies in the Predator version. We also do not know the proportion of ocean squares, so it's hard to estimate the advantage of playing with the Predator class' faster ocean-crossing galleys. But since Cracker has provided a movement rate for ocean tiles, it's reasonable to expect some ocean tiles to exist - which would give Predator galleys some advantage.

A Predator galley's safe moves seem to be C-C, C-S-C, S-S-C, and S-O-S-C (assuming ocean never borders coast). Its longest possible move from a coastal tile is S-O-O-O-O. With the Lighthouse, a run as long as O-O-O-O-O-S is both safe and possible (add one ocean tile if the Lighthouse's movement bonus applies).

 

[pterrok]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ


I don't see the big deal. With a movement of 6, a galley can move two coast spaces normally, or three with the lighthouse. How's that going to make a huge difference to your game?

And why is it a handicap, if all of the computer players have the same limitation on their movement?

First, I don't know that we can asssume that the AI ships ARE at the same effective speed as the player ships! <g> Sure they'll have the same movement cost, but what if they have more movement points or the 'road-bonus'? (But I think they will be the same except that maybe the Carthaginians might have faster ships in ALL the classes.)

Secondly, another handicap against the Predator Class is that the AI starts out with Deity level unit bonuses. This means they each get 8 defensive units instead of 2 as in Open or Conquest, 4 Offensive units instead of 1, 2 settlers and 3 workers instead of 1 each. (The final piece is the AI gets Deity level 'free unit support'.)

With these bonuses the AI can expand faster in the beginning--and if they are on an island near you, they may expand overland and take a prime landing spot on Predator before you can get there by sea--whereas a Player on Open or Conquest could have gotten there quickly enough to get his city established. (Hypothetically.)

Thirdly, it's not so much that it affects the game you play if all the AI play the same way, and all the players play the same game--it's that your score will be judged against the Open and adjusted Conquest scores based mostly on the finish date. If you have to build your rings of cities on little islands separated by coastal squares, Open and Conquest players will get their second ring at least 1 turn quicker than a Predator with his slower galleys. (It may take even 2 or more turns longer if you have to detour around an island.)

This is fine because it means that the Predator player will be slowed down enough that his finish date will fall more in-line with a very good Open player, yielding closer scores. Which is why I was analyzing the way the map might be because Cracker WANTS the scores to be even. (And not a PLUS for the Predator!)

The big question is, who can we talk into playing Predator? GOTM20 with the Deity level and bragging rights has a sparse Predator population. But with the concept of the 'Medal Play' and a Monarch game more people might be into it.

Since I was in the Tournament in the Elite division, I'm supposed to be playing the Predator games. But I do get to sneak one Open entry in there. And I have to try and figure out if this is the one I want to use on Open or not! Since I hate the sea and all, and this seems to be one where sea usage will be critical, by going Open I may maximize my GOTM score.

But I suppose the upcoming Vikings are gonna need the sea, too, and I'd really rather not have to play Predator on a Deity level game which might be what the game after the Vikings could turn out to be. Decisions, decisions!

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by pterrok
First, I don't know that we can asssume that the AI ships ARE at the same effective speed as the player ships!

It seems clear to me. Cracker listed all the changes, and faster galleys for the computer player wasn't one of them.

The big question is, who can we talk into playing Predator?

Not sure what you mean by this. I think almost all the top players will play "Predator". I certainly will, even though I'm not really a "top player". It's just more fun to play against stronger opponents (same reason I wouldn't play Monarch level in a non-tournament game).

Maybe the answer is "People who don't care too much about their scores." I think that's most of the top players.

Since I was in the Tournament in the Elite division, I'm supposed to be playing the Predator games.

Personally, I think you should play at whatever level you enjoy most. This seems to be very different from your thinking, though.

 

[Renata]

@ DaviddesJ

pterrok is referring to the successor to the Civ 3 tournament, which has recently been announced in that forum. That'll be a 'medal-play' series, where players choose which level they want to compete at based on their skills and comfort level. The series will be three games long, using the GOTM maps, with the players playing at least two games at their chosen level, with the option to play the third at a lower level. [Or something similar to that; I may not have it exactly right.] Games are then scored based mostly on fastest finish.

Pterrok is saying he used to play in the 'elite' tournament division, which was monarch/emperor, and therefore feels he'll be comfortable with Predator class for most games, but understandably, doesn't want to get caught having to play Predator on deity.

Hope that clarifies things.

Renata

 

[SirPleb]

I expect this naval change will create an additional challenge for the Predator class, so I've been trying to work out how that can be - overall it doesn't seem to add much handicap. None if there's much ocean, so I think one prediction we can make is that there won't be long ocean stretches. (Seemed unlikely for Mediteranean Melee anyway )

Perhaps the challenge will come from there being a lot of coastal tiles. But I'll venture another guess, that in keeping with the Greek theme, Predators are going to be served a big Calamari appetizer. Which could of course turn out the other way around, a Predator appetizer for the Squid

1) It will be harder to run from Squid to a safe spot upon seeing them.
2) Squid can take advantage of sea/ocean moves to catch us while we are more restricted to coastal safety.
3) If there's some ocean, Squids may converge on us quickly from far away places.

 

[Yndy]

Originally posted by SirPleb
3) If there's some ocean, Squids may converge on us quickly from far away places.

That’s scary!

But I feel you are close to the truth. I also imagine there’s more than the eye can see in this apparently minor change

 

[Jove]

Arrrr, so playing a predator game on this map it may behoove one to send out galley scouts in groups of two or more, a solo squid being the most common thing. Under Normal circumstances. A suicide galley run south will probably yield contact with just one survived ocean park, the med being so skinny. But assuming there's a strip of ocean down the middle, you'll almost always be vulnerable to squid anytime you try to cross it. And at attack 3, I don't know about you guys but my boats flounder and dissolve into flotsam and jetsam when facing Squid.

 

[pterrok]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ


It seems clear to me. Cracker listed all the changes, and faster galleys for the computer player wasn't one of them.

I'm not sure if you were around for GOTM19--the Romans were HEAVILY modified but we were not told anything about it because it was a global change that affected everyone. So Cracker only listed the differences between the classes, leaving open the possibility for a naval superpower that Greece will have to overcome. (Sheer speculation on my part, of course!)

Two other points to ponder:

1) The Conquest class gets to build galleys at 20 shields instead of 30. So is this telling us you only need a couple of critical ones at the beginning? Because if they can build 15 while the other classes build 10...i.e. how much of a bonus will the Conquest be getting should tell us how much of a handicap the Predators are laboring under.

2) Is a port considered to be coast for movement purposes? Never having worked with the editor I have no idea if you'd have to change that on its own to affect its movement point value. If it stays 1 mp then ducking through ports as you move would be critical!

Thanks for explaining about the Tournament, Renata! (And congratulations in advance for moving past me on the Global Ranking this month.) And you'll be moving past me too, DaviddesJ, after you get a few more games under your belt. I AM just trying to maximize my scores will playing to my strengths or avoiding my weaknessess.

I'm gonna end this now as I just found Cracker put up the starting position...

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by pterrok

I'm not sure if you were around for GOTM19--the Romans were HEAVILY modified but we were not told anything about it because it was a global change that affected everyone. So Cracker only listed the differences between the classes, leaving open the possibility for a naval superpower that Greece will have to overcome. (Sheer speculation on my part, of course!)

OK, I agree it's possible that there's some foreign civ that gets to build galley-type vessels that move 10, or has some other huge naval advantage. (Although this will be detectable by looking in the civilipedia at game start: i.e., the Roman galleass was visible there.)

2) Is a port considered to be coast for movement purposes?

Good question. I'd guess that the port automatically is 1 movement point for ships, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[DaveMcW]

Ports have whatever movement cost they were built on. 2 for hills, 1 otherwise.

 

[alexman]

Actually, I believe this has been fixed in one of the recent patches.

 

[alexman]

And to answer the question, a port city always has a movement cost of 1, even if coast has a movement cost of 3.