Gotm23-Arabs - Pregame Discussion

@Ibnsina...

Ansar warriors have are 4.2.3s and do NOT have a special movement ability on roadless terrain... that is the attribute of the Mongols UU...

Ansars are like Chinese Riders except the are: a) weeker in defence; and b) cheaper (60 as opposed to 70 shields than regular Knights).

But yes, it'll be brilliant to surge out of the holy lands with a horde of Ansars to spread the faith.
 
Originally posted by Boyd
@AlanH... you must have posted as I was bothching my quoting of your comment... have a look at it now and you'll see that I think we are not quite on the same page...
Yeah, sorry for my facetious comment. I knew something like that had happened.


I am drawing my analysis from crackers' comments and from the discussion around the new resources...
The despot reduction by one happens for all tiles that are producing three or more of anything, regardless whether it came from a bonus resource or improvements.

Hills = 1.1.0, goats = 2.1.0 so the gross production is 3.2.0 with no improvements. That reduces to 2.2.0 in despotism. A mine adds 0.2.0 on a hill tile. A road adds 0.0.1. So the two together give gross production 3.4.1, and that reduces to 2.3.1 in despotism. I think we are agreeing that we shouldn't improve it early on. As you say, one extra shield and one extra gold is poor return for all those valuable worker turns. Much better to improve the plains ready for pop growth. Food is more critical than shields in this terrain, and we need another 2fpt tile by the turn 10 pop growth point.

I was reacting badly to the suggestions from others that a move away from the goats made sense, and that got mixed in with my response. Apologies.

Thanks for the explanation of bouncy scouts. I guess it works if there are no hills or forests at the foot of the mountains.
 
We have the different naval movement again. I was hoping it was a one shot deal for the Vikings. IMHO it did nothing to enhance the game.

Monarch with raging barbs will make last months start seem easy. An early military high-shield military factory will be critical. Archers or horseman will be important to take advantage of the attack bonus on barbs. At monarchy we can't count on the AI to do much with the barbarians. I never play with raging barbs, so I don't know how badly they will interfere with the game start.

The standard 40% land together with 2 extra rivals implies a crowded start. We really need to find some food bonuses to get many cities built. Any potential food bonus will take to long to go to if I have to go across the hills / mountains. I am moving to expose more of the plains tiles hoping for some food. I can't even figure out the first worker move at the point from the picture. I plan to send the scout to the "S" spot that looks like grassland.
LAK-343.jpg


With 9 rivals on a Pangaea I expect plenty of early first contact. With the barb level it will be dangerous to horde a lot of early cash as I typically play. I may do a very atypical move for myself and research wheel first. Unless Japan is in the game there is a good chance for that tech to be unknown to some civs.
 
Originally posted by LKendter
We have the different naval movement again. I was hoping it was a one shot deal for the Vikings. IMHO it did nothing to enhance the game.
I haven't played a pangeia before, only a dry run on celts (18?). Does naval movement figure much in a pangeia?

I plan to send the scout to the "S" spot that looks like grassland.
On my monitor the visible part of that NNE tile looks exactly the same as the equivalent bits of the SW tile. There's yellow poking out. My guess is it's plains.
 
cracker hasn't been cheap when it comes to distribute extra food the last games, but maybe this is the exception?

I will send the scout SE, then S to see if there is anything better to irrigate and get some foodproduction going. If there is, settler and worker will move accordingly, if nothing shows up there I send the worker E. Hopefully we will have something nice close :)

Raging barbs, I never play that but isn't that 24 horsemen running amock, when a closeby barbhut goes nuts?

Domination on pangaea sounds alright and with 9 other civs I'm sure it will be a fun game. And yes, horses early is a must :)
 
Yes raging barbs is 24 horse when it goes... my recollection is that they start to go when two civs reach the middle ages.
 
What I said in the specualtion thread :)

"Hopefully we will have large pangea map this time"

Well, at least we got pangaea!

"No fancy start position to create settler factories"

It doesn't look too bright yet, does it? The scout will tell us the truth.

"A lighter game on monarch this time"

There we go :)

"perhaps cracker will provide us with raging barbs just to make it fun?"

It's all my fault!

I guessed Diplo as winning condition, at least Domination starts with the same letter!
 
The three tiles to the NE look like plains, desert, desert, from right to left. Raging barbs doesn't sound too attractive, but i'm thinking of moving SE to have 5 possible barb attack directions semi-protected by the river, to give my warrior(i only plan on building one per city, and spearmen when i get bronze) a better defense chance vs. a large attack group. NW doesn't look like a nice area at all, I'm not buying the speculation that the mountain range is thin. (The bottom right of the tile that's two tiles W looks exactly like the bottom right of the tile directly west) I'll end up with the goats out of the original city radius, but for the first ten turns i'll be putting out a warrior and a scout to explore/protect, and then when the city expands I'll switch over to the goats to give a 15 turn growth to size two, which will give my worker a nice amount of time to road and irrigate the 5 tiles on the other side of the river.

There's also the possiblity that on the other side of the river is a desert, so a SW move might put me next to oodles of floodplains, perhaps with wheat(although i doubt it)

SSW looks like plains, everything north and west of that looks like mountains, and everything else out of the start position range is either desert or that one tile of plains to the NNE.

Given the "arid and warm" map type, i would be surprised if there was more than 3 non-desert, non-mountain tiles outside of the viewing range. The river there means that the desert would be floodplains, giving a nice early food boost, with mining the hill to the north an after-priority.

As far as exploring goes, I'm going to go S, then W onto the mountain. If there's just plains on the other side of the river, i'll go with the start position to settle, if it's floodplains, i'm moving SE.

I haven't seen much discussion about where the watermasses might be, however there's a remote possibility that on the other side of those mountains is a body of water(one of the tiles kind of looks like it could be coast) but it's highly doubtful that we're within 10 tiles of anything other than a one-tile lake.

Exploring will determine the direction of settling, giving priority to floodplains with mountains/hills nearby, one/two tile lakes, and any grassland available(which is probably less than .1% of the whole map)

There is most definitely plains to the N-N-NE square. Either that or desert but if there's another river it's bound to be in that area.

So, build should go something like: Warrior, Scout, ???
Scout will go S then W.
Settler will choose based on Scout's revealings.
Worker will road goats if it's plains south of the river, or the start position if it's floodplains. If the settler moves SE, the worker will then irrigate the start tile and then go over to the floodplains to road & irrigate one or two tiles, then move up to road/mine the goats, by building a road on the other side of the river. Add'l warriors may need to be built depending on what the scout finds. If I remember correctly, when a scout pops a hut, it cant' be angry barbs. Or maybe that's just on lower levels. Perhaps building a warrior just to protect the worker. More workers won't come out until I need them, perhaps by the third or fourth city(if i find coast i'll settle on it immediately) or if I find a resource/luxury.

Not quite sure where my tech will take me, it doesn't look like a builder strategy will get high marks here, although finding a coast square early means i'll probably go for bronze working & the colossus, otherwise I'll probably go for Lit after I make a few contacts and start to build up a sizeable defense force. Note I said defense force I'm not planning on much rolling out of the units even after the UU becomes available, at least until I can roll out a new gov't because gold will probably be rampantly abundant.

Large areas of deserts means probably lots of oil, I'll try to get some "border-blockers" up on the deserts and kick out opposing settlers if they try to come in. Although the deserts are probably too large to completely block off with cities, but i've always wanted to try a warrior wall :)

The start of college means less time to play this month(From the time i download until 9 pm on the 2nd, then weekends only until thanksgiving) so a fast victory would make me more likely to finish, but culture seems like it might work out too. A 20k seems unlikely, so I'm going to squeeze settlers out of every city whenever size 4 or above, and put temples in each(hopefully i can get monarchy soon so i can start gold-rushing) to fill in border gaps. If i come into contact with another civ early enough, and he/she looks weak, i might go for a quick destructo-civ and sack an early capital.

Looks to be one of the more interesting games. I forget which vanilla civ is religious/commercial(i think they're commercial, i haven't heard it said anywhere though)..can someone remind me? But i'll load up a game with the same map settings and play a few dozen early games to get a feel for what kind of victory/minimal loss strategy to go for.
 
From the looks of things I think I will send the scout S, W to the Mountain to get a look around and possibly move the worker East. I think I disagree with Lee's tech choice and would prefer to go with WC as a first tech. First off I think archers will be key in dealing with barbs and I want to get the most bang for the buck with my huts.

If I am researching a tech I can't get it from a hut so research cheap and hope to pop expensive. I think I will start with minimal military and get 2 scouts before my first warrior. Or until I see the first sign of barbs.

I also have a fondness for early temples with religious civs and cheap caths. May try for a 100K win this time.
 
@QwertySoft,

The Arabs are expansionist & religious so play a Iroguois game and don't trigger a golden age until you have chivalry and upgraded most your horse archers!

I, although by no means a good player, have almost always played with raging barbarians. Defending your towns with a spearman and a warrior will not hold off a horde of 24 horsemen... you'll need at least three spearmen and walls!

The more I look at the starting position, review the history of the Arab peoples and read and think about the postings, the more I think I will settle at the starting point and work the plains... in this I agree totally with AlanH.

The core Arab cities were not population factories... those came with expansion into the fertile crescent and the coast.

QwertySoft's suggestion of further down the river there being floodplains and wheat further makes me think that our capital will be a shield and commerce centre... from the core cities we will build our armies... from the softer expansion (3rd and 4th cities) will come the population.

I really want the Wheel and Iron working quickly... I think the position will readily give us those key resources for our Ansars.

I assume we will find incense, along with the probable ivory (on a river too - should mean lots of gold), within reach and hopefully gold (historically the Arabian peninsula was a major gold centre) to fund my mass upgrades.
 
My only suggestion on dealing with the hordes is don't let them happen. Have no fog of war in the vacinity of your towns using warrirors and horsemen as look outs around the entire territory. Don't let the barb hut to form and trade maps to see the ones that do and clear them before the era change with horses.

Don't keep gold around either spend it on techs, embassies etc. In GOTM 20 with raging barbs on deity I lost all my gold to 2 uprising huts 48 horses attacked and I had 3 gold in my treasury at the end of the QSC period :(.

I wouldn't waste units defending the cities spread the units out to cover the territory instead. Scouts IIRC will not work only military units.
 
You are right, with barbs the best defense is an offense, but sometimes you miss them (or one of the two or three that break out) so you outlying cities should be well defended or you'll lose your cash... as you found in gotmXX.
 
Does barbarians spawn differently in raging mode? I mean will we have to confront more of them from one hut before uprising?
Or is the spawning the same on all levels?

I'm starting to think archers here too now
 
Originally posted by DaveShack


In the last several test games I've tried, scouts popping huts got tech or friendly warriors about 75% of the time, where warriors popping huts got a higher percentage of unfriendlies. I can't tell if it is strictly the unit type doing the popping, or if it is the expansionist trait. In any case, the techs have been very lucrative in the test games... :D

And me, who played Americans about 20 times in a row... Oh how soon I forget!! :crazyeye: Scouts don't get barbs from huts, it's one of the benefits of Expansionist. Don't know what I was thinking... :smoke:
 
Alright, Iroquois it is...actually, i think i played my first dry/arid game ever with them, and it was 3 billion as well...

Somehow i got the idea in my head that scouts can pop angry barbs on higher difficulty levels. On raging, I wouldn't expect to see very many goody huts though, I'm thinking a 3:1 ratio of camps to huts, or greater.
 
Hmmm... it's hard for me to decide whether to send the scout S/SE to look for food on the plains or to cross the thin mountain range to the SW and explore the possibility of grassland on that side (looks like grassland on the W-W-SW tile). Definitely looks like desert to the NE; too bad the river is going south and not into the desert. Hopefully the desert will start up again giving us floodplains. I will probably send the worker N to the goats to start roading/mining and to get a few extra tiles of sight into the desert to see if there's any incense around.

I think I will probably either settle in the starting location or in the crotch of the river. The crotch of the river seems more likely because without bonus food, I don't think there will be enough population to work the mountains anyway. I tend to be a metropolis builder, a habit I'm trying to break for the GOTM, since it seems better results come with closer city placements.

Given the Arabs' history, I wonder how close we are to the "gulf"... They started between the Tigris and the Euphrates, right? If Cracker is giving the map some historical accuracy, that means there may be a second river, possibly in the NE desert for floodplains.
 
Well I give up on guessing direction. I have never learned how to read the fog, and at this point I doubt I will.

Revised scout direction is double south.


Still debating between The Wheel and Warrior Code. My gut feeling says we will find other civs quickly, and be able to trade for Warrior Code.
 
Scout S one tile and then probably S again. This should show the hoped for luxury that is SE and anything else that is along the river.

Worker to the E to either work that tile (see previous discussions between AlanH and myself) or to move to the S if there are bonus food resources within range.

Settler to settle on spot unless the reconanissance turns up something worthwhile as the goats are worth two food and I want that in the first turns to speed growth.

@Yoshimune...

The Arabs didn't start between the Tigris and Euphrates... that was the Babylonians, so I wouldn't be expecting a second river nearby. The pregame discussion link by cracker gives some discussion of the starting years of the Arabic peoples as does the Civ Intelligence link on the home page. Have a read as it will fortify you with the hardiness and courage of our tirbe!
 
I tried Iroquois on a similar map yesterday. I got a lot of flood plains which killed off five of my citizens before 1000 BC.. that hurt!

Also the barb uprising at the age change was 32 horses [Edit: I might have counted wrong, but three vet spears didn't stand up to them]. If you've got fog nearby. Stand by for that to hit.
 
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