GOTM50 spoiler thread

[URUWASHI]

Why the fascination about winning the game on 98. 99 , or a 100 turns ??
I do not get it...I agree I a newby here, if so.... why trying to go for that ??
Is any more points by playing the fastest game ??
I love playing Civ, I have played for many years..now I found several people that feel the same way....and that is awesome,Civ II is an awesome game.
so..If I can beat the score in 98,99 or a 100 turns ???? What happens ??
I have been reading the posts and its all about beating the year so..and so...

I do have a lot of respect for the other players..but..why ..is beating the time frame is such a big issue ???
Game of the Month 50 ; Aztecs....total points are 2800 or so by 1700..and according to the GOTM my score is 280 + or so...is it better if I play for the fastest conquest ?
I am a bit confused...but I will get better with time.

 

[la fayette]

URUWASHI

There are many ways to have fun when playing civ2, and that is the main reason why we all love it.
Play a few hundred more games and you will notice that high score requires patience (which is not despicable at all), but early conquest or early landing requires skill (which most of us try to improve).

 

[Ali Ardavan]

To answer my own question from a previous post, you can count your citizens (and therefore worked tiles) most easily from

Citizens = (50 * Citizen Score / Approval rating) - 1

See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=113865&page=3

Thank you Peaster, this is interesting. I did some experimentation and indeed
Approval rating = (Citizen Score)/(2*(Citizens+1))
I have always wondered about the data reported under demographics. I understand how some of them are calculated; but most are unknown to me. Approval rating was one of the unknowns till this post from Peaster.

I suppose fans have already figured all of these out. Does anyone know where I can find out about the rest of the data on demographics?

(By the way, Peaster, the link you provided refers back to your own post. I suppose that is not what you intended.)

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

URUWASHI

There are many ways to have fun when playing civ2, and that is the main reason why we all love it.
Play a few hundred more games and you will notice that high score requires patience (which is not despicable at all), but early conquest or early landing requires skill (which most of us try to improve).

That's not to say that there is no skill in some of the high score games either. I don't think I'm half the player Starlifter (just to name one) was and he routinely put up massive scores.

I think there's a couple things at play here:
- The GOTM scoring heavily favors early finishes, unless you can sustain incredible growth for a long period of time.
- Even in early landing/conquest mode, this game can take a very long time to play (some of us much longer than others), particularly when micromanaging, so an emphasis on early finishes helps keep the time element in games reasonable.
- But I think the main thing is that with enough time, a high score can be achieved with sloppy play so it is harder to identify the skill involved. On the other hand, an early finish can generally not be achieved without sound strategy, efficient management of resources, and (particularly in the case of conquest) skillful tactical execution. You can certainly have those things in a high score game as well, but it is much more likely that someone achieves a high score without those than it is for someone to achieve early finish without them.

 

[la fayette]

I agree with you on all points.
I wished to make a short answer to URUWASHI's questions.
Your reply is much more precise and I am sure he will appreciate it.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

I agree with you on all points.
I wished to make a short answer to URUWASHI's questions.
Your reply is much more precise and I am sure he will appreciate it.

I figured as much - I hope I didn't come across as critical of your reply. I just wanted to expound on your answer so URUWASHI wasn't left thinking we thought there was no skill in high score games. I still occasionally go back and reread things like the writeups from Andu's "modernization" games and his power democracy discussions with Starlifter for pointers and ideas. Good stuff in there.

 

[Peaster]

I suppose fans have already figured all of these out. Does anyone know where I can find out about the rest of the data on demographics?

(By the way, Peaster, the link you provided refers back to your own post. I suppose that is not what you intended.)

Sorry about that. I found this explanation of the demo screen stats through the GL at Apolyton. I am not sure of the author, but the address is SlowThinker's.

http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/~cz045662/civ2/statistic.htm

 

[URUWASHI]

Gentleman..I have to be very honest, and I have to apologize, because I should have read the fine print first
I never did a total search of the site....I found "A " Hall of Fame, in another web site where scores where twisted.. so I never looked at ( OUR ) Hall of Fame in this site...I found OUR Hall of fame an It was very refreshing to understand a few things about the GOTM.
I found that the scores posted by GOTM are not just a monthy thing..but a very tough competition.SCores are kept..points awarded....gold , silver , bronze medals...
I was not aware that the GOTM is a on going thing..every month
I found Ali's , Gregor , Peaster . La Fayette , Elephant...etc etc names and it was very refreshing....I never realized that the GOTM was all about.
I can compare some of the top GOTM players with guys like Petachhi, Baden Cooke , Valverde , Menclov and Lance Armstrong...the best cyclist in the world....
What make this guys better than the rest ??
Its that only a handful of them that can beat the clock.....not only they adapt to different terrains, geographical issues, but ...BUT is only a few of them that can beat the clock.. and each other.....and that's what make them world champions.
And again only few of them have the hability to understand the game.
So....... I compare some of the guys that can finish the game in record time....that , its what set them apart from the rest of us.......
I am still in my primal stages....in fact we all play football..except I play for the Toronto Argonauts on the CFL ..and most of you guys play for the New England Patriots....LOL
So what are the best players can do to beat each other ???? its a logical thing....TIME ( or turns in Civ II )..that set them apart from the rest of us...and I admire that.. (.even if I play on cheat mode , I could never finish 40 turns earlier as you guys do....LOL )
When I ask was was fascinating about beating the time frame mhhhhhhh......lets put it this way..I just got a bike....most guys here are in the Tour of FRance..
But I am happy with that....

So I am not even dreaming about even getting in the same league as Ali , Grigor, Peaster ..etc....I like to look at the game post and find my name there ........in the top 50 !
I am happy as a kid in Chucky cheese !

Have any of you run a 10 K race ????
I posted my first game ( GOTM 48 ) and finished 11th or so....and I was very happy !!! Just been there.....
Well...sure ..try to beat those Kenian Racers...LOL , having my name in the paper ( page 5 .....finishingt 3278 out of 7000 was good for me... )
But beyond amazing to me was that it is a ONE CITY CHALLENGE !!
How that works ???? Only one city all game ????? Can you build more cities and use their trade to increase wonders ??? what if you discover an advance tribe ??
That was beyond amazing to me !!

I was wondering...years ago was a game called " Pirates " and a log of the game was kept by the PC.....I was mesmerized by Ali keeping a log every turn ..
.BUT....... is it a way to incorporate a HTML file or other format file into the program that will keep track of the game progression ???

LOKA !! ( lets all Kick A** )......;-)

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I found this explanation of the demo screen stats through the GL at Apolyton. I am not sure of the author, but the address is SlowThinker's.

http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/~cz045662/civ2/statistic.htm

This is exactly what I was hoping for. I did a search on our site and the closest thing I found was a similar explanation for Civ3 but nothing for Civ2. Thank you Peaster.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

I really wanted to get in this "historic" 50th GOTM, so I was initially a bit disappointed that I couldn't play an OCC game or true ICS/Early Conquest. My intent was just to find a way to finish during the month, but of course the little micromanager that lives in my head quickly started taking over. I wasn't sure I'd be able finish in the time allotted and as it was, I just barely made it (tonight is the last time I can play before the 9th).

While it appears I did beat Peaster's victory date, and I ran up a sizeable score in the process, I will say that I consider those conquest victories to be much more impressive given the large map and the AI's initial advantages (including gunpowder units). I didn't even consider going for a rapid conquest victory because I didn't think I could do it very "rapidly". The fact that you guys did it in 100 turns or less is more impressive to me than what I was able to accomplish.

Victory was by spaceship landing in 1575 (25-6-6-1-1-1 launched in '67). I was out of caravans at that point (had to sell some improvements just to finish the last caravans) so I could not have built a bigger/faster ship without taking several more years. For some reason, the price of techs never really got high, even as I started passing the other civs. I can only guess that maybe the game was treating the 20-some techs we were given as true "starting techs" and thus our research costs were always low (cost only ever went up 15b each tech). Or maybe it was something to do with the setup of the scenario. With freight deliveries and a 60-70% science rate, I was able to get 2 techs per turn for several years in a row taking me from around Machine Tools to Space flight in about 6 years.

I also took advantage of the AI's initial tech lead and the direct techs in that I was able to trade for several techs and leapfrog others without being forced to come back and research them. In particular I was able to trade for Explosives, Leadership, and Metallurgy thus allowing me to avoid both Feudalism and Gunpowder. This was critical in that I could cheaply IPRB caravans (and military units, later) very late in the game. Without this I probably would have taken more years to build a ship and it likely would have been smaller/slower as well.

Once I launched, I went into my typical GOTM "score whore" mode. I upped luxuries for widespread celebrations and tried to keep up with the need for happiness/growth improvements as much as possible. I did divert production for a couple turns to build a moderate task force for some post-launch fun. Spain had built Cure for Cancer and Eiffel Tower in Toledo and I just couldn't resist the temptation of extra happy people in every city, plus additional wonder points. Spain was one of the few civs whose attitude was dropping, and they were Fundy; they were practically begging to be attacked. The expedition was far more than successful than I could have possibly hoped as I was ultimately able to take out all of continental Spain, plus a tiny city on the west coast of Africa. This gave me 4 additional wonders including CfC and Mikes. I was also able to build two more wonders on my own (Oracle and Seti), and I actually managed to get one future technology from freight deliveries. Between the spaceship, wonders, celebrations, assimilated Spanish citizens, "retired" engineers, and the Future Tech, I more than doubled my score in the 8 years from Launch to Landing.

I will not be around for the next several days, but should be back sometime later in April should anyone wish to discuss further.

 

[Peaster]

Congratulations, Tim! You've shown that playing for early landing was a more logical approach to the green star (and maybe the gold medal) than early conquest. And, of course, your level of playing skill helped a lot too. A fine game!

BTW - we just rented the Holy Grail... looking forward to seeing you there!

 

[la fayette]

1575 !
IIRC it was my victory at the end of my THIRD game of conquest.
Achieving that as early landing date is really impressive:

WELL DONE TIM

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Great job Tim; I am humbled. By 1575 I have not even discovered space flight. Glad to see somebody else tried the space ship strategy like I did.

Looks like you pushed science from the begining all the way to launch time. I pushed science for only a short period of time and then dropped its rate to as low as 20% in favor of taxes and luxuries because I was discovering techs faster than I could use them. I tried to strike a balance between growth, infrastructure, and science which caused me to take 75% more turns than you did. Though I doubt I could have done it as fast as you even if I tried. Amazing result.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Great job Tim; I am humbled. By 1575 I have not even discovered space flight. Glad to see somebody else tried the space ship strategy like I did.

Looks like you pushed science from the begining all the way to launch time. I pushed science for only a short period of time and then dropped its rate to as low as 20% in favor of taxes and luxuries because I was discovering techs faster than I could use them. I tried to strike a balance between growth, infrastructure, and science which caused me to take 75% more turns than you did. Though I doubt I could have done it as fast as you even if I tried. Amazing result.

Actually I didn’t push my own research much at all in the early going. I went for expansion and exploration and set my sliders mostly on gold for either settlers to expand or caravans to build the SSC wonders. I figured the AIs had a head start on wonders, so I wanted to make a strong push to get those first. Because I was focusing on shields for camels and had a fair number of supported units out exploring, I stayed in Monarchy (celebrating) all the way up to when I was ready to switch to Democracy. My exploration probably gave me 30 or more huts in the first 25 years or so, and I got 5 or 6 techs from those huts before eventually learning invention. Shortly thereafter, the AIs started exchanging techs with me - I picked up 6 or 7 techs in exchanges but in doing so, I was often able to leapfrog over other techs: I got Theology without Monotheism, I got Explosives and Metallurgy without Gunpowder, Leadership without Gunpowder, Feudalism or Chivalry, and Railroad without Steam Engine. Not only did this save time researching those extra techs, it had a huge benefit of allowing me to IPRB the first two rows of shields until the end.

It was around this time that my SSC started operating and with most of the wonders built, I was able to start using vans to trade for delivery bonuses as well. I started getting a tech every 2-3 turns at first, then as the SSC started to grow and more deliveries were made I was able to get 1 tech each turn. Once I got Automobile and built a few Superhighways in my bigger trade cities, I was able to get one tech from freight and one from my cities for several turns. I was able to keep this up until Space Flight. I was quite surprised that I could sustain this rate after Flight cancelled the Colossus and reduced my freight bonuses.

The speed I was researching at the end really caught me by surprise. I had been building improvements for growth (colosseums, temples, markets, aqueducts, sewers), and hadn’t built many caravans for the space ship. When I hit Flight and could still research 2 techs per turn, I realized the potential problem I was facing so I switched every city to caravan production and rush-built as many as I could afford for a couple turns. I got up to 55 freights when Space flight was learned. A dozen went into Apollo, and several others were better suited for trade payoffs. The delivery bonuses allowed me to complete the rest of the Spaceship Techs, one each turn, with science set at zero and just Einsteins to put me over the top. This gave me more cash available to buy freights and SS Parts. I had hoped to be able to launch the same turn Fusion was researched, but it was apparent I wouldn’t have enough parts. I took 2 extra turns building parts, but in doing so I was able to build a slightly faster ship than I had planned on so it ended up being a wash.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Congratulations, Tim! You've shown that playing for early landing was a more logical approach to the green star (and maybe the gold medal) than early conquest. And, of course, your level of playing skill helped a lot too. A fine game!

BTW - we just rented the Holy Grail... looking forward to seeing you there!

I'm not sure SS was "more logical". Had the research costs behaved normally instead of only going up 15b each time, it would have taken much, much longer to launch - and I might have missed out on a key wonder or two as well.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Apparently, playing for score was more popular a few years ago. I looked at some GOTM20 saves and everybody was playing extreme ICS, with 50-100 cities packed in like sardines on a smallish map by about 500AD. I don't think they were trying very hard to finish quickly, but I guess the spoiler threads are gone by now. After seeing those games, I am not so sure that I actually play "ICS"!

FYI: Those older threads are still available. Go to the top of the forum list and change the Display Options to include threads From The: "Beginning" instead of From The: "Last Year" then hit the "show threads" button.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I was often able to leapfrog over other techs: I got Theology without Monotheism, I got Explosives and Metallurgy without Gunpowder, Leadership without Gunpowder, Feudalism or Chivalry, and Railroad without Steam Engine. Not only did this save time researching those extra techs, it had a huge benefit of allowing me to IPRB the first two rows of shields until the end.

Very smart. I often forget about and fail to take advantage of the availability of direct techs.

 

[Old n Slow]

Nice job Tim! I was able to get two techs per turn for a while as well, but it was very late in the game -- and getting FT3 & FT4 the same turn is much less exciting. Was planning on building a space ship but ended up stomping the world instead -- took out 14 cities of India in a single turn (might be close to a personal best.)