GP's tile improvements, worth it ?

[Salawow]

Hello !

I was curious about what's the general opinion about GP's tile improvements. Do they worth it sometimes ? And if the answer is yes, which ones, where, and when exactly should i use them ?

Let's take them one by one, please tell me if i'm wrong about something.

Great Engineer: It sounds much better to use them for an instant wonder.
Great Scientist: It sounds much better to use them for an instant tech.
Great Merchant: It sounds much better to use them for instant cash + CS influence
Great Artist: Since the ability to expand borders is not always useful, building a monument sounds like a good idea.
Great General: Although that tile improvement can be useful if i have the right landscape, i usualy either keep them in my borders cities, or simply turns them into golden age.

The major thing that makes me never use them is simple.. yes, 6 science + all multiplicators on a tile seems to be very nice in the long run, but i don't think it can beat the instant tech, along with the bonus of the farm/trading post that i will never get if i instead build an academy on that tile. Maybe i'm wrong though..

So, what you guys think about GP's tile improvements ?

 

[Scarpa]

Only for Landmarks (Great Artist)

 

[MaximusK]

It seems if your playing on the hardest difficulty levels you really need to bulb/rush build wonders if you want them at all or to stay ahead of the AI. I am still on king and learning to play the game and the competition for wonders/tech is not as fierce. If it all, I will build an academy early in the game esp. next to the city w/ the national college. I sometimes build a manufacturing plant. For cultural victory the landmarks are a must, esp since you'll be almost spamming artists. I usually use a great merchant with a nearby city-state, rarely do I build the tile. Sometimes I build the tiles for the fun of it.

Maybe they need to boost the payout of techs on tile improvements for them to be more worthwhile? I think they need to add something to the Moai as well

 

[General Tso]

I for one never create GP tile improvements. I'd rather use the GP for something else and just improve all my tiles in the usually manor. I use scientist - instant tech, engineers - rush wonders, and generals - as generals. The others are used to start a golden age. If I have enough generals I sometimes start to use them for golden ages near the end of the game.

I would be interested in hearing other people's opinions also. Please give me some good reasons to build GP tile improvements.

 

[Ranos]

It mostly depends on what victory I'm going for.

Overall, GSs are more worth the free tech.

GEs just depend. If I'm going military, I'm not really going after wonders at all but the production from a Manufactory will be huge for my military. If I'm going cultural, then the GE rushes a wonder. The rest of the time it just depends on my current situation. If there is a wonder I wantthat is either available right now or within the next couple of techs, I save the GE for wonder rush. If no wonder, then he's a manufactory.

GAs also depend. If cultural victory, then they are a Landmark. Other victories then they are either a culture bomb to snag some territory that I really need or they are a golden age.

GMs are usually used for CS influence and gold especially in diplo victory. Sometimes they are a golden age though. I don't think I've ever made the improvement with them.

GGs are always for military boost. I have never made a Citadel although I have been close. If I have enough GGs for my military purposes, then they become a golden age.

 

[apocalypse105]

Only for Landmarks (Great Artist)

Custom houses are nice to especially early in the game

 

[apocalypse105]

It mostly depends on what victory I'm going for.

Overall, GSs are more worth the free tech.

GEs just depend. If I'm going military, I'm not really going after wonders at all but the production from a Manufactory will be huge for my military. If I'm going cultural, then the GE rushes a wonder. The rest of the time it just depends on my current situation. If there is a wonder I wantthat is either available right now or within the next couple of techs, I save the GE for wonder rush. If no wonder, then he's a manufactory.

GAs also depend. If cultural victory, then they are a Landmark. Other victories then they are either a culture bomb to snag some territory that I really need or they are a golden age.

GMs are usually used for CS influence and gold especially in diplo victory. Sometimes they are a golden age though. I don't think I've ever made the improvement with them.

GGs are always for military boost. I have never made a Citadel although I have been close. If I have enough GGs for my military purposes, then they become a golden age.

yeah I agree with everything except the great merchant the custom house is really powerfull early in the game

 

[FeiLing]

An Academy is insanely good early on - like when you are below 60ish science per turn +6 (which is actually +11 science per turn due to an university and a national college); so it gives you an edge early on by boosting your total science output by ~10-30%. That's a pretty huge edge and we all know even a little edge turns into a way larger edge over the course of time (you get key techs earlier, which allows for key wonders earlier or military advantages).
I'd always use my first GS for an academy, maybe even the second depending on how early or late it comes. However the free tech can also be worth it early on even though it isn't worth much beakers (as you want theology/hagia sophia and then education/porcelain tower, so using a GS to bulb education the turn hagia sophia finishes gives you the porcelain tower right away in the next turn due to an GE rush and said PT returns you a new GS right away as well). So that's more than worthwhile too.

Now, even late game an academy is somewhat amazing, as long as you go freedom we're looking at +12 multiplied by 1.83 due to an university and the NC --> +22 science per turn. If you throw in an Observatory and also go Rationalism (+32%) and finally a Research Lab it's +38 science per Academy. So a single academy in your Supercity makes like 10% of your late game total science output. That's huge considering said academy has been giving you an edge for the past 150+ turns and still contributes a lot now (of course at this point you wouldn't make an new academy any more, as you want to keep all of them to bulb your last few techs you need to win at once instead).

A single landmark in a cultural Supercity gives even more extra culture per turn than possible with science and you probably want way more of them in said supercity, which will likely end up producing 80+ percent of your empires total culture.

GE should always be used to rush wonders until the point where you don't need any more wonders or if there aren't any leftover
And if I already burned a lot of GP (mainly Generals and Artists in most games) then I often chose to build a Manufactory over a mere 3 turns in a golden age for that Engineer.

The GG improvement is what you really want to avoid, as it usually can only save you from losing right now in an emergency situation - if you are on the winning side that Superfortification will only be at your front/in the fight for maybe 5 turns or even less. Meh.

And the great merchant improvement seems really not worth it either as I rarely find myself going for a Supercity of commerce. If you got that, it might be worthwhile (expecting also +30-40ish gold per turn in a Supecity). A trade mission however also gives you like 500-750 gold plus influence worth another 300 gold and golden ages as well might be worth up to like 100 gold per turn in large empires.

 

[MrHerpyDerp]

I keep a engineer for the HS and if I can the Science Tower. Also helps to get rid of those expensive techs(advanced balistics anyone?) and I need to just move on to the next tech.

When playing OCC I use the Great Artist to gobble lux resources on CS allies and if the army is nice enough other civs.

Customs houses can be a life saver.

 

[AGorillaKiller]

For lower difficulties the tile improvment is proberbly best in the long run. Once you start to hit Emperor, Immortal and deity you need the instant fix as the start is so important. Bulbing is the only way to get those all important wounders like HS and PT on the higher levels. I did do a super science city before using all my GS for tile improvments and it works but the trade of is you loose one of your main citys which would normally be used as a super production city. If you are going to war I know which one I would rather have. as for GG after you have 2 bulb the rest

 

[Gherkin]

I think early to early-middle game, the improvements are better, but that can change situationally. An improvement of +6 or so can comprise 10%-20% or more of your total output in a given category early. Later game they don't scale (I'm not counting the multipliers from various buildings, policies, and wonders, mind you) and it is generally best to take the instant fix.

 

[Gucumatz]

I always attempt to get a Great Scientist early and get an academy. I often try to get 2-3 early academies. You have no idea how amazing the effect is with National College, University, and yield improvement effects early on. The ability to breeze through early techs early on is underestimated and you will have a powerful teching capital to work from.

I play multiplayer 85% of the time and I see with my extended scouts how people save their Great Scientists early for later. I think this is a mistake, and I prove it often taking huge tech leads in multiplayer thanks to those academies (and of course my subsequent combat tactics and expansion).

Early Academies are extremely powerful and underrated.

I sometimes save Great Artists for culture bomb ability if I am playing a small tall empire. Great Artist's culture bombs are at times very effective in stealing an important resource and provoking war (that you didnt want to start officialy). In multiplayer I have used Great Artists to steal resources to provoke someone to war me so I could make them look as the warmonger and rally people against him/her (by planting seeds in peoples minds of how he/she would war us all soon and start with me). The extra land is extra beneficial if you go Great Wall in multiplayer effectively turning former land of your opponent into a buffer.

But normally I just use Great Artists for Landmarks.

I almost always use Great Engineers for Wonders.
I almost always use Great Merchants for Golden Age
I almost always have 1-2 Great Generals on hand for leading my armies (and occasionaly a second if there is a favorable territory that I may need to use Citadel in multiplayer, but this is rare). Rest I use for Golden Ages

 

[Timothy001]

In later turns, I will use a GM to replace a trading post. Also, If you build the building on Snow, It is no longer a worthless tile. I had 1 city, near oil, Coal and Uranium, with 7 hexes of tundra. Was able to make it into a very useful city, with Manufactory, Academy's and Monuments.

 

[ense7en]

GE = wonders
GS = bulbing techs
GM = pretty much never get these, but i go visit a CS if i do.
GA = these i spam and plant for the Landmarks when going Cultural. Otherwise i'd likely use them on Golden Ages, or very rarely, Culture Bombs.
GG = i keep two usually when warring at different fronts, and Golden Age the rest.

 

[Derpy Hooves]

Citadels are stupidly powerful against the AI, especially when it's on unit spam mode, early on a Academy is really strong but loses potency quickly, GA's are obviously useful for culture but not much more, put em a lux plantation with no bonusses (cotton, dyes, etc).

 

[qec]

I'd say its somewhat situational. If I'm playing a small and tall empire I'm usually getting a lot more GP then when I play a wide warmonger. On tall empire games I usually have much less cities and find creating the improvements to be very useful at most points of the game. Once you get the Policy that double the output of the improvements they become hugely powerful no matter what size empire. Also, this stacks with the policy that has C.S occasionally gift GP to you.

I played a Wonder/Population game recently as Egypt and had Thebes up to 25 pop. mid-game and over 40 Pop. by the end. Eventually I had built all possible wonders and had such good tech and happiness that the only sensible thing to with GP was to use for the improvements. I figured this because most tech were always less than 10 turns away and I was spamming RAs and had a tech lead as is, so the only thing to do was make academies. Same with GE, no more wonders left to built, plus I had a tech lead so any new wonders I had an advantage over the A.I anyway. So it ended up Thebes had at least 2 of each GP improvement and each of my other 3 cities had at least one of each.

I also mention Happiness because if you have 50+ then your going to be getting golden ages soon enough anyway and I didn't think there was a necessity so start them with GP.

I think this strategy works best on small tall empires because you get more pop to work specialists and also have a better chance at getting wonders.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

"worth it" is more around what your game goal is. if you are looking for the fastest turn count vic (regardless of victory type) they are less valuable as TI's. but certain cultures, certain game bonuses, wonders, and social policies make TIs quite fun.

if you have a great tile improvement (+6) plus the freedom finisher (+100% great tile production) plus certain tech bonuses (an addt'l +2 for academies/manufactories/etc.) i think you can get them to +14 or better per tile improvement. add in the % bonuses from buildings/wonders and they add up to a pretty big bang-for-your-buck in terms of tile production. but this doesnt usually happen til Industrial Era and earliest turn victories either happen during the Industrial era or sooner (unless science or diplo vics are needed).

for the fun factor or interesting bonuses from buildings, i think they are "worth it".

also, putting them on unimproved tiles with nice bonuses works better. look for any decent +3 food or +3 gold tile (wheat, cotton, etc.) next to a river. and watch your citizen production because sometimes you need to not work that tile for another more pressing game interest. they do require more micromanagement.

 

[Tokira]

The GG improvement is what you really want to avoid, as it usually can only save you from losing right now in an emergency situation - if you are on the winning side that Superfortification will only be at your front/in the fight for maybe 5 turns or even less. Meh.

I would have agreed on this one a few days ago but after a game I played yesterday, I think otherwise.

It was an OCC game as Babylon, emperor difficulty. As in the most of my OCC games I wanted to go for a cultural victory and I chose Bablyon due to their UA, which would help me in scientifical progress.

The ancient, classical and medieval eras went well. I spammed the necessary wonders (The great library, stonehenge, etc.) though I missed oracle. I was the first one to reach reneissance era and I managed to get some wonders there too. But then a great "misfortune" happened: Spain (which was the leading civilization militarywise) declared war on me. They had discovered the technologies that are required for cannons and came on my two longswordmen with a huge army of conqistadors. I hadn't expected this at all since they were far, far away on the map so I hadn't really built any army. After all the conqistadors finished off my longswordmen in two turns though they were seriously injured in the process and attacked on my city. They got my city over half way down before I could finish them off.

After this I didn't see any Spanish units in roughly twenty turns and Isabella even proposed a peace treaty with horrible conditions. I decided to build/buy a cannon and three longswordmen and the brandenburg gate as well to have the GG to build the citadel which I hadn't built ever before. I built the great fortress on a hill to the same side of my territory where the Spanish troops had been seen for the first time.

This time Isabella's army had no chance. A longswordman stationed in the citadel was able to hold off their whole army because the citadel bombarded the Spanish troops 3 damage per turn. In the end Isabella withdrew her army and sued for peace again with the same conditions.

Basically the situation didn't change at all during the rest of the game except that at one point Wu Zetian also DOWed me. They were quite successful as they used a different route to attack my city than Isabella, but they didn't do more than about 3 damage on my city. I used the next GG to build a citadel on that direction and as my longswordmen were upgrade to riflemen and my cannon was upgraded to an artillery, I was able to hold both the Spanish and the Chinese troops off. In the end Isabella DOWed on Wu and took her capital (which was the only Chinese city in the game) in just a couple of turns.

The Spanish kept fighting just as badly as before even though they kept constantly sending their troops on my territory. After their first attack they never managed to touch my city at all due to the two citadels. Of course the setting was ideal since the other side of my territory was protected by mountains so the Spanish had no other routes but the two with the citadels blocking their way. Isabella and Kamehameha managed to catch me up in techs and my war with Isabella became modern. I was lucky enough to have oil to protect my territory with 2-4 fighters but Isabella built even more of them and almost finished my mech infantries in the citadels before the planes were finally destroyed.

After all I actually won the game despite of having 200 turns of war with Isabella (+ Wu for ~50 turns). Kamehameha was a few turns away from winning scientifical victory though. Spain also finished the manhattan project about 30 turns before my victory but luckily I never saw any nukes. In the end I doubt that I could have defended my territory for more than about 10-30 turns after the first Spanish invasion had I not build the citadels. The game was one of the most interesting that I ever played in Civ V and it changed my opinion of citadels. Another funny fact was that Isabella proposed to make a peace treaty ~20 times in the game never changing her conditions despite of losing dozens of units.

Now of course citadels are mainly useful for very small empires that can't field a big army. Also I doubt that they would be effective in multiplayer games since as a human player I could have found a strategy to pass the fortresses without getting all my units killed.

I know that it might be a bit tl;dr, but if you managed to read it, I applaud you.

Edit: Added a screenshot. It's 7 turns before the end of the game as you can see. Soon after this Isabella launched her final attack which consisted of modern armors, infantries and artilleries but even with those she didn't get past the citadels without having her units down to about 1-3 health points. Of course she could have used the northern route but.. She just didn't. We should praise the AI tactics x)

Spoiler :

 

[krc]

I would have agreed on this one a few days ago but after a game I played yesterday, I think otherwise.

It was an OCC game as Babylon, emperor difficulty. As in the most of my OCC games I wanted to go for a cultural victory and I chose Bablyon due to their UA, which would help me in scientifical progress....
In the end I doubt that I could have defended my territory for more than about 10-30 turns after the first Spanish invasion had I not build the citadels. The game was one of the most interesting that I ever played in Civ V and it changed my opinion of citadels.

Now of course citadels are mainly useful for very small empires that can't field a big army.

Not necessarily all that small; just one that is no longer interested in expansion.

Over a year ago, I posted a story (Raze-less Fury) where I constructed a citadel. I had already defeated my two nearest neighbors, so I had a substantial puppet empire. There was a large mountain range that limited the directions from which I could be attacked. I decided to stop expanding at that point and concentrate on one of the more peaceful victory conditions. Putting a citadel at a natural choke point made it easy to sit there defensively for the rest of the game and build what I wanted.

 

[Tokira]

Not necessarily all that small; just one that is no longer interested in expansion.

That is true. What I meant with my post was that if you have a big empire, you can use the GGs to trigger golden ages or to boost your army's preformance.

Then again as a small empire you don't have big enough incomes to maintain a big army and therefore these kind of tactics are more necessary than for the big empires. But you are right, the big empires can benefit from the citadels as well.