GR13 - AWE on LK's world map

[vmxa]

No I would never gamble. My position is that it is not a gamble, it is a lock. I also would not want them to get two free techs, again I don't see how they could.

I would conceed some chance at the ToE, but none for them to get Hoover unless they also get the ToE.

I know we can reduce losses with armies, but if we could use infantry in many places, the armies could go on attack.

Anyway it is fine with me either way.

My guess is the AI will probably not be more than starting SciMed when we finish it. I suspect that is even being generous. Often they do not even go for it as fast as they can.

Again I do not see Hoover doing anything for us, but it will do plenty for the AI. We will already have coal plants in the best cities and gain zero shields. We will lose a some units that will be skipped to build Hoovers. Not a big deal.

Not as much of a loss as the cavs we will not get while making courthouses. Courthouses that will be worth very little if we do not stay in communism.

I guess the main reason I dislike communism is that you have to do it while things are hot. Make lots of structures you otherwise would not bother with and of course you have to switch out of it if you are going to have a massive empire.

Even a religious civ will take a lot of lost production. I am sure there is a window where it makes sense, but I am far too lasy to be bothered to figure out the numbers. I just ignore switching more than once. Actually I once played a contients sid game and did not switch at all. Just too much action to take the hit.

Bottom line to me is we can do either way and be just fine.

 

[Greebley]

I agree they don't have any chance at Hoover if we get the TOE. I was arguing for Going for Sci Method next so an AI doesn't cascade to TOE and beat us. So not going for Sci Method next is a gamble.

I will pretty much always get the two techs and Hoover as those are the two of the most expensive techs and the most you can get for it. With Hoover as a bonus, I think one should only go for other techs in very rare circumstances.

 

[ThERat]

this sounds pretty familiar, didn't we have the same discussion last game. However, in this game I feel Hoover will give us more benefits as it will last much longer. We still need to invade America and Australia, by far not easy if the AI is advanced. (if they have bombers for example)

 

[vmxa]

I know what you are saying. I am only saying that they have no chance at any of it.
Yes we had this discussion. I was right then about the research and we will see if I got it this time. Maybe I screwed up.

I don't see any gamble, because even if they got ToE and Hoovers, they still can't win.

I tend not to care about Hoovers, because in I don't make more than 4 or 5 factories in my games. Even if it is on a huge map and playing for a conquest. Anyway it is just an academic discussion as the path is already set.

 

[markh]

Sorry, for the delay. I will finish my set this evening.

 

[markh]

0) 1500AD : close the choke at Baghdad. I let the walls finish before letting that stack attack. I had no good RNG lately.

IBT : some bombardment, start prebuild in Kahun

1) 1505AD : kill some units

IBT : not much

2) 1510AD : kill some dropped units

IBT : nothing

3) 1515AD : raze New Kolhapur
raze Frankfurt

IBT : the Mongols suicide a lot cavs, MDIs and longbows on Baghdad
the last attacking cav kills a sword army

Electricity -> Scientific Method

Washington completes Magellan

4) 1520AD : just kill some invaders

I leave it here. I had it long enough and the Mongol attacks took quite long. I have not moved some armies. I am not sure whether the armies in Baghdad will hold. There are not that many Mongol cavs left, but there is still a number of MDIs, longbows and rifles that could attack.

I have not done any mm this last turn. Sorry.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47099/GR13_AD1520.SAV

 

[M60A3TTS]

Looks like if we eliminate the Mongol stacks we should be in a position to roll. No lack of Mongol rifles, there are 40+ next to Baghdad.

 

[Greebley]

I would move 2-3 more Knight armies into the city. It looks like we can move 2 and still hold the choke. Getting a 3rd might require being creative (4-5 drafts on a mountain at another choke perhaps to free up another army). It might also be worth upgrading some rifles for the city too and maybe drafting as well. That looks like a lot of troops that will be attacking and we don't want to lose all the armies and such.

I would also start a prebuild for Hoover. The sooner we get it the stronger it is.

I also think we should build more Factories now rather than waiting. The sooner we get them the bigger the advantage. We are not really going to expand until RP so this is the best time to get them on line. A slight pause now will double our shields when RP comes on line and we can pump out the Artillery and infantry. We will do better if we are building units faster.

We can make another Rifle army if we get a leader.

Roster:

Greebley
ThERat
markh - Just Played
Northern Pike - Up
vmxa - On Deck
M60A3TTS

 

[ThERat]

we also need a rax in Baghdad to ensure we won't lose thise city. Let the Mongols suicide all their rifles, it will help us a lot.

 

[Northern Pike]

I've got it. I don't know how many turns I can play, but I'll try to absorb the Mongol attacks, start factories and another prebuild, clean up our MM, and so on.

 

[markh]

I would also start a prebuild for Hoover. The sooner we get it the stronger it is.

The prebuild is started in Kahun, but I am not sure whether I set it on palace or US.

 

[Greebley]

We need two prebuilds. One for Hoover and one for TOE. If US is built before we can get TOE, then we build an Army and TOE prebuild, starting Hoover when we get Sci Method.

 

[markh]

We need two prebuilds. One for Hoover and one for TOE. If US is built before we can get TOE, then we build an Army and TOE prebuild, starting Hoover when we get Sci Method.

Uh, yes, of course. I think I have to start playing civ more extensively again as these things still do not come to my mind automatically.

 

[Northern Pike]

1545 AD, beginning of turn

 

[Northern Pike]

1520 (1): I switch most of our serious cities to factory builds.

I switch Thebes to a Hoover prebuild via a coal plant. The capital is never ideal for this, since it can't change to the palace if we're beaten to US, but I see nowhere else it would be worth doing at all.

I merge a worker and a settler into Baghdad so that we can pop-rush a barracks there.

We pick off one Mongol rifleman around Baghdad (1-0).

I switch units around and move two extra knight armies into Baghdad, as well as five pikemen.

A Cossack makes one of those random attacks against one of our cav armies (2-0). No others follow its example, fortunately.

Thirty-four Mongol units die attacking Baghdad. Only one of their riflemen attacks, so there's no danger to us, but OTOH the slaughter is limited (36-0).


1525 (2): We found War ina Babylon, filling the cultural gap in Mesopotamia.

We raze Leipzig, held by a musketman and two riflemen (39-0). Between captures and razing we gain six slaves, along with two trebs and a cannon.

We bombard and wipe out seven units--four Persian, two Iroquois, and one Mongol--landed on our west coast between Landing and Katsina (46-0).

We auto-raze Frankfurt, just founded by the Germans in the Balkans (one musketman; 47-0), then found Dread Lion in the same area,

We ride down three Cossacks (50-0).

We bombard and eliminate a Mongol stack of nine near Baghdad, and a nearby Mongol cav (60-0).

No enemy attacks. The Mongols lose interest in Baghdad and move away, for some reason.


1530 (3): We bombard and exterminate five Mongol units landed near Landing (65-0).

We crush two Persian cav around Baghdad (67-0).

In the Balkans we dispose of 19 Cossacks, six French units, and five German units, capturing a French settler (97-0).

No enemy attacks, but the Mongols move 85 units next to Baghdad, so action may resume there.


1535 (4): We smite seven Chinese and three German units in the Balkans; three Persian cav around Baghdad; and two American and three Iroquois units on our west coast (115-0).

Genghis must have a bad feeling about his upcoming attack on Baghdad, because he asks for an audience.

Twenty-eight Mongol units perish attacking Baghdad, but only six are riflemen (143-0). Obviously we aren't going to get rid of the Mongol rifles by standing on the defensive.


1540 (5): We cut down a Cossack landed on our west coast (144-0).

In the Balkans we slay thirteen Chinese, four German, four French, and two Persian units (167-0).

Another twenty Mongol units fall attacking Baghdad, but only two riflemen (187-0).

Well, the usual dilemma. I'll post now rather than waiting two or three days to play again.

Twenty elite victories didn't produce a Great Leader this round.

 

[Northern Pike]

We're getting almost no military production while we wait for factories, but it doesn't matter. With the number of armies we have we can easily hold our lines, and even push forward a little in Europe. The Germans and French don't seem to have riflemen yet.

Some of our cities may seem to be on very long-term factory builds, but those numbers will come down quickly when they get proper worker service, and in some cases as their populations grow.

We started the Hoover prebuild in Thebes a little too late, and it'll only save us about four turns over just letting Kahun build Hoover after ToE, but I suppose that's worth something.

To put that more directly, Kahun is prebuilding ToE with the palace, and Thebes is prebuilding Hoover with US.

We've made good progress on mining unneeded irrigated tiles, but there's still a lot to do.

All the enemy landings this round came on our west coast, between Katsina and Landing.

We have a settler in position to found a city west of Istanbul.

There are four enemy units around Landing on our west coast.

 

[Northern Pike]

The soft underbelly:

 

[ThERat]

what an amazing kill count

hopefully we can get the Mongols to attack with their rifles one day. lse, we need to wait for tanks to mow those units down

during my turnset the landings appeared at exactly the same area, nice kill zone there

 

[Greebley]

Good turn. I liked the kill count as well

Totally agree with the factory builds. Doubling our production everywhere will be a huge bonus for us. It won't take long for the factories to pay for themselves in terms of shields. We will get the artillery and infantry we need much quicker.

If the rifles don't attack we can just whittle away at them. Another strategy is to allow them in and then seal off the way in after them. This can be tricky as sealing off the flow again can be hard. Then we bombard and kill over a lot of turns. They can't get back out to heal so we eventually get them if they stay stacked (IIRC they often will go in different directions if they have different targets which means stacks can be bombarded down to 1 hp).

BTW, when we get RP, we shouldn't upgrade our cats and stuff. It just isn't cost effective to upgrade artillery. Instead we can start disbanding cats to speed up factory builds to get them on line sooner (once we have built artillery to replace them). We want to research Espionage after RP and then start heading for flight which really helps when we want to move units to the other continents.

 

[Greebley]

Roster:

Greebley
ThERat
markh
Northern Pike - Just Played
vmxa - Up
M60A3TTS - On Deck