GR2 - Sherman's War (C3C AW).

Love the Army names! Great luck you had on leaders! Maybe it carried over from my lack of no promotions or leaders. Looks like we're off to the races! Did you get a feeling the AIis inept at having a chance to get Bedford. Perhaps if they snuck an SOD around the fog to Paducah they would have a chance. :lol: Bridges coming up. That will help.
According to my C3C chart Chivalry is listed as a 32 cost while Eng was a 36 cost, so I'm thinking with the libraries we have and perhaps some you may have started we could possibly bag it in 10 turns or less. Wow, still no mono from GL though!:rolleyes: I think the AI abandons infrastucture for military builds so they may end up in our dust.
Looks like Greebley may get to annex some more Aztec land. Also, how did the 1st Div do? Both horses out of commission I assume.
Sorry about the builds when you got it. It was 8am after an all nighter and I just put them on something. The 20 shield horse was weed though. I only looked at Pike in 2 to get them up there to the front. Now that we are fairly stable I'm glad you spotted it.
How about Slinger's Slaughter Boys.;)
 
Well done Barbslinger and T_McC. :goodjob:

I like the army names. :D

Did someone mention a 1.10 C3C patch. Is is going to put RCP and the FP back the way is was in PTW? edit I found the news on the new patch coming out before Christmas.

FYI - I came across a nice reference guide this morning. I posted the link below.

19 page Word Reference Dcoument for C3C
 
Originally posted by barbslinger
Love the Army names!
Click to expand...

:blush:

Originally posted by barbslinger
Did you get a feeling the AI is inept at having a chance to get Bedford. Perhaps if they snuck an SOD around the fog to Paducah they would have a chance.
Click to expand...

Yeah, on my turn the AI was on the offensive end of a battle 2 of 39 times. I never had a city attacked, as the AI (especially the Ottomans) always had their two move units end the turn next to BedFor, rather than move forward 1 square, and attack the next turn. Biggest threat came when there were 3 AC adjacent to BedFor on the same turn, but that turn ended with 4 dead AC, as the northern army caught one right after it had been produced.

Paducah is no longer on the front. I founded Little Roundtop between it and Chicago. I feel the best route for conquest is to go CCW starting with Chicago, so we don't have to wade through all the units being send by the northern civs.

Originally posted by barbslinger
... so I'm thinking with the libraries we have and perhaps some you may have started we could possibly bag it in 10 turns or less. Wow, still no mono from GL though!
Click to expand...

I'm afraid we will have to research Mono ourselves. This is factored in to the pre-build time (I believe we have 38 turns to go on the Palace). Unless the Aztecs have gotten some workers out, they and the Iro have been "picked clean" by our armies. There were no visible improvements in their lands by the end of my turn.

The armies didn't do quite what you had planned. The sword army got stuck around the Iro iron and I got a little impatient with watching the Ottos march troops down the roads in their territory. So the northern army took a detour south, and started disconnecting roads down there. That army is currently marauding Inca territory, and the sword army has completed operations around the Iroquois and is heading north. Combined they can wipe out the northern half of the continent, while the Handymen watch the Iro horses.

Originally posted by barbslinger
Sorry about the builds when you got it. ... The 20 shield horse was weed though. I only looked at Pike in 2 to get them up there to the front.
Click to expand...
Nothing that weedy about the builds, mostly differences in personal preferences. LSU (and now Tecumseh) making 20 spt is rather awkward in this era. The only units to build that are not terribly wasteful are MDI and cats, and we don't have a pressing need for cats. On my turns LSU build MDI-->Library-->Courthouse-->start MDI. The courthouse allowed us to swap some tiles with Bull Run, to give the pre-build city 14 spt after corruption, and maintain LSU at 20 spt. Greebley will have to take a look, but I don't believe either LSU or Tecumseh can possibly get to 30 spt, or productively drop to 15 spt, so we're likely going to get some 40 shield pikes and horses. If we are committed to building pikes/horses it is certainly possible to get the two cities down to 17-18 shields and give a couple of shields to neighboring cities. Most of my turn was spent on projects where 20 vs. 18 meant saving a turn of production, so I'm not sure exactly what is possible/profitable.

@Greebley - Had the leader come early on my turns, I was going to form a 3-MDI army and go on the offensive. Now you get to choose what to do with the Boys. One thing to be aware of: We are just about at our support limit for armies. I believe the rule is 1 army for every 5 cities, but I can't remember whether that calculation involves rounding or truncation or what. (i.e. How many cities do we need for a 5th army? 21, 23, or 25?) So don't be shocked if you pop a leader and can't form an army with him.
 
Ok, I got it.

I tried playing a game yesterday and it was terrible. I was trying to bombard a Roman legion and instead of bombarding the legion, I bombarded the square I wanted to move to :rolleyes: I think it was a factor of me getting over the Flu. Hopefully, I can do better here.
 
Ok, Gingerbread Man. Maybe we will play some other game together in the future. The history of Sherman was useful so you did contribute :)

Preturn:
Things looked pretty good. Didn't change anything.

IBT: Normal troop movement
LSU: MDI->MDI
Odd - Shiloh riots. I could have sworn it was ok.

560AD: Army attacks an archer up north.

A bit of a lull on attacks this turn.

IBT: Ottomans would like to talk. Nope
Iroquois would like to talk. Nope
Tecumseh: Pike->Pike
Shiloh: Pike->Horseman
Sherman: Pike->Library
Lancaster: Pike->MDI
Missionary Ridge: Temple->Harbor

570 AD: Used the army with 3 pikes.

Bombardment
Horse vs Archer wins.
MDI vs Archer wins.
E Jav vs injured sword wins
MDI vs Horse wins
Horse vs Horse promotes to Elite
Horse vs Horse wins

IBT: Ancient Cav attacks a Pike and wins, spear/settler dropped off near our S iron.

LSU: MDI->MDI
Manassas: Pike->Tree-Bucket
Pudacah: Temple->Courthouse

580 AD:
Update some Catapults. Lower science to 40% so as to get more money. Mono theism in 12
Unit costs are high for our economy (40 gpt) and we still have settleable spots.. Going to build some more towns I think. Change a few outlying towns with limited growth to settlers.

Bombard and kill the ancient Cav
Bombard spear guarding settler
R MDI attacks spear and loses
V MDI attacks spear and wins.

IBT: A few archer come within range
Tecumseh: Pike->MDI

590 AD: Bombardment (the Tree-Buckets go for the spears).
Kill Spear with MDI
Kill Archer with MDI
Kill Spear with Horse
Kill Archer with Horse.

IBT:
LSU: MDI->MDI
Savannah: Pike->Market

600 AD: Upgrade another catapult

More bombardment
MDI vs Archer wins
E Horse vsArcher wins
MDI vsArcher wins
MDI vs Archer wins
MDI vs Archer wins
E Horse vs Archer wins, but is in danger. My bad - there was a fogged square.

IBT: Swordsman kills our Horse.
Tecumseh: MDI->MDI
Chattanooga: Market->Harbor

610 AD:
Bombardment
Jav vs Jag Warrior wins and gets slave
Switch Grant to a temple

IBT:
LSU: MDI->MDI
Miss that Sherman is unhappy
Montgomery: Library->Market
Ottomans are building Sistine. And we have to research Monotheism. Ugh! Sounds like we need to concentrate pillage on the Ottomen.

620 AD:
Checking Diplo: Aztecs have Mono. Will turn off research this round...
Pillage Ottoman Horses
Moving some units toward Chicago.

MDI vs Archer wins
E Horse vs Archer wins
MDI vs Sword wins
Horse vs Archer wins

IBT: GLib gives us Mono - switch to Chivalry in ----
Tecumseh: MDI->MDI
Shiloh: Horse->Horse
Lincoln: Settler->Aquaduct
Missionary Ridge: Settler->Aquaduct

630 AD:
Bombardment
MDI vs Chasqui Scout - Scout retreats
Horse vs C. Scout wins
Horse vs Spear wins.
Chivalry in 11.

Attack on Chicago:
MDI vs Pike wins
MDI vs Spear wins and takes the town.

IBT:
LSU: MDI->MDI
Ottomans are building Sistine again.

640 AD:
R MDI vs Horse wins
Decide to attack MDI vs Archer (some risk, but I plan to cover with a pike). Get Leader - Ok this may be stupid but I am going to build the FP in Georgia. It will reduce distance corruption. It may have a temporary hit on our cash though until we get markets near it.
MDI nearly loses to 1 hp Spear.
V Horse vs 2 hp Spear loses.

IBT:
Tecumseh: MDI->MDI
Georgia: FP->Market
Jonesboro: Tree-Bucket->Marketplace
Chicago riots.

650 AD: Not too bad - The FP got us +2 gold. Woot! This will improve as we get MarketPlaces and libraries up. This matches my previous experience. Building the FP adds a slight improvement - the rank corruption remains the same - the distance corruption improves. I am guessing a 10% to 20% improvement once we get Market places.

Build new town of Bushwacker Valley.

Notes:
The settler near Manassas, I was sending to the very tip our peninsula. It will get 2 whales, and an iron. and can make a decent fishing village. It will want a harbor and an aquaduct first I think and will make us a bit of money. More important, every town is 2 gpt (becoming 4 when reaching size 7).

We should work on more towns if we can. Most of our cash is going to unit support. Also aquaducts are 1/2 price for us and double the unit support for the town and so may be worth it.

I also have another settler circled in the picture below. I was going to settle where it is now, but I am not sure about that. Maybe going for Tlaxcala would be good? You decide Handy.

GR2_AD650.jpg


I am not sure I followed all the advise that was given. If I missed anything, point it out to the next player. Not alot happened on my turns so I took 10. Feel free to go for 5 if 10 is taking too long!

An image of the pillaging. Remember that the roads will be rebuilt so after everything appears to be pillaged, go back to areas that haven't been visited recently.

GR2_AD650-Pillage.JPG


The Save
 
An FP! I knew it still worked if placed far enough away. My test before was 13 tiles away and though I'm no corruption expert I saw a marked improvement. It will be better.
On the settler near Georgia, I go back to a previous post I made thinking we should dot map Aztec lands to make best use of what we're going to have. Raze and replace or keep. I'm thinking once Chivalry comes in we will have options.
How is the Knights Templar going? I see no mention.
Is the AC wonder giving Otto 1 every 5 turns out of each city? How is he fielding 3-4 at a time? If it is that is one powerful wonder in the right hands.
 
Good job. We look to be in most excellent shape. :)

I got it , and I'll try to play tonight.

Greebley, I :love: your settler location. 2 tiles from 3 cities, and near tiles from Tlaxacala.

If I get to take Tlaxacala, I'll probably keep it short term. We can decide what to do with it later after Greebley & T_McC get "dot map part deaux" finished. :D

Looks like the Ottomans have had a few roads pillaged. I'll keep pillaging and checking to mak sure resoursed are not hooked back up.

Good to see an FP that works in c3c. :goodjob:
 
If Handy hasn't played yet:

After your 2nd turn, you can switch LSU to a Cathedral to pre-build for Knights Templar. Greebley couldn't start it due to no pre-build being available, as Bull Run is using the Palace. My earlier rantings assumed that the Sistine Chapel came with Monotheism.

An FP is a good use of the leader, but we are suffering extra corruption in some (previously) core cities. I expect that to go away when the patch comes out. Unfortunately, Greebley was working with an original erroneous conjecture. The buggy FP does reduce distance corruption for cities in its vicinity, but can dramatically increase rank corruption, as the cities near the Palace now are effectively ranked 1, 3, 5, 7, ... rather than 1, 2, 3, 4, ... (The FP cities got the even slots). Bottom line is that until the patch, you don't get a larger number of useful cities by building an FP, you just change the identity of the useful cities. Everything that is not 1st ring to either the Palace or FP got less useful.

Just to have some statistical evidence, I compared corruption in my last save to corruption in 650 AD.

Before
From Cities, 84 of 241 corruption: 34.9%
Bull Run (Between 1st and 2nd ring to Palace, Leonardo's) can use 14 of 17 shields
Shiloh (2nd ring to Palace) can use 5 of 9 shields
Savannah (2nd ring to Palace) can use 5 of 9 shields

After
From Cities, 90 of 268 corruption: 33.6%
Bull Run can use 14 of 19 shields (lost at least 1, probably 2)
Shiloh and Savannah now can only use 2 of 9 shields (each lost 3)

So no, the FP really doesn't work. We didn't lose money by building the FP, but what we effectively did was dump the corruption near Georgia (the very outlying cities) into the cities 2nd-ring to our Palace. The cities 2nd ring to the FP won't have gotten worse, since they were lousy to begin with.

-----
No dot-map right now ('cause I think I'll cross-post with Handy's turns), but where the settler currently stands is not on the river, so I might move him 1 NW to the hill. That is still not on the river, but does give Georgia some more room to grow. The hill is still within three tiles of Chicago (and Little Roundtop), and gets the defensive bonus.

Tlaxcala should burn, and a city might be founded 1 E of Tlaxcala, on a floodplain. Xochicalco is in an awful location, and should be replaced with a city 1 NW, on the river-plains tile. One more city could then be founded on the desert tile between the Oases.
 
But it also increases the rank near the FP. So it comes out the same - so ya Bull Run has more corruption, but the ones near the FP have less. The rank corruption is identical to what it was before. The distance corruption is better. So the net result is better.


Or to state it another way, before the ranks went:

Palace, closest to Palace, next closest to palace, ....

Now it goes
Palace, FP, closest to palace, closest to FP. ....

So we have just moved which cities are the best around.

We take a small short term hit until we get the land around georgia and its cities improved. Once the land is improved, then we will get a bigger benefit.

As I said, we gained 2 gold even though we moved corruption from cities with market places to cities without. Distance corruption is by no means insignificant.
 
OK. Regardless of what my previous post sounded like, I believe rushing the FP in Georgia was the correct move. Even with the bug, in the medium- to long-term we will derive a benefit from the FP, as all of our low-rank cities will also have low distance corruption. In the short-term, it points to Palace core producing troops (we are almost done with infrastructure there), FP core building infra, and the cities 2nd ring to the Palace building settlers and the odd military unit. Once the patch comes out we will see a major improvement in our economy.

One other thing to consider:
If I understand the bug correctly, and one has an empire of 16 cities where 1 is the Palace, 1 is the FP, 5 are closer to the FP, and 9 are closer to the Palace, cities #8 and 9 on the closest-to-palace list will be assigned ranks of 17 and 19 for corruption. Higher than the actual total # of cities. With the shape of our empire, I believe we are seeing some of that.

All a moot point once the patch comes out, building the FP now just forces us to be more pro-active about developing the FP core. And that's probably a good thing. One or two shields/turn is not going to make a difference in whether we get Leo's or not.
 
Agreed. I wonder if we really know if the order is strictly alternating. If I had to guess - the fix was to put all cities in the list rather than just the palace list like it was before. This is a "natural" way to fix it. The distance that is sorted by is the closer of the palace and the FP.

So say before the program calculated the number of cities less than distance 1 from the palace, less than distance 2 from the palace, less than distance 3 from the palace, etc. and used that as the rank for distance 1, 2, 3, etc.

The new could be the same thing only caculate the number of cities less than or equal to the palace or the FP . So the number of cities distance 1 or less from the palace or the FP, the number of cities distance 2 or less from the palace, etc. for distance 1, 2, ect.

This makes sense from a programmers standpoint and I can easily see a programmer who maybe hasn't played the game all that much doing exactly that
 
Sorry about that. I just looked up one more post. I GOT IT. Will play tonight around 10pm. I had to come into work for a few hours to get ready for next week.
On the settler, I really don't know what to do with him but will look for another spot on the Georgia ring that Monte already made for us. Tlax looks good to me with 2 flood plains and all the hills/mountains. I take it we are doing a tight build around Georgia too? I'll probably spend the 1st half hour planning a dot map. I think we are getting to a point where in 20 turns we can start cleaning up the continent. That jungle will be a pain to clear tiles. After we get this 2nd core up we should get moving up there to get the dyes? and surely gems. Knights soon! Can't wait.
 
Here's my take on a northern dot map.

GR2_NthrDtMp.JPG


All but the northern blue dot are within three tiles of at least two cities. The two Aztec cities pictured would be razed. The yellow dot is "optional", as Tlacopan is an equally valid location. In fact, I prefer Tlacopan to the yellow dot. The one advantage yellow dot has is to be three squares from the northern blue dot. Catttargus would then be kept, rather than razed. I believe this dot-map claims every land tile in the picture except for 1. We're also getting 6 cities where the Aztecs have 3.

The settler is under the pike in the picture. The American stack includes a settler as well.
 
The dot map looks good to me. Only real reason to keep a foreign city in that area is if it has a wonder that is still active. I didn't check that, but I am dubious these cities would have one.

This is going to be "core" territory so placement is more important here, but as we get to more corrupt areas, remember a slightly tighter build means more unit support. Not sure if that matters much, but it is worth remembering. River sites are higher priority because you get more support for size 7+ cities.

[Edit: Barbslinger, I agree new Lux are high priority if we can get them.]
 
Objectives –
Kick butt

650AD pre turn – I see a couple entertainers that go to taxmen. Grant has walls due in 1 but it is already behind the frontlines and at pop6 needs a duct and courthouse to grow and a temple to get off the entertainer it has there. Switch to temple. Bedford need a marketplace before the duct or it will go unhappy. Sold all the barracks pre-SZ for around 90g. Looked into MM. Shiloh I’m going to courthouse in 24. Giving up 1 shield is Bull Run prebuild. It looks like we may nearly already have 200 for Knights of Templar. We have 225 already so pulled a citizen working mines to give it to a more needy city. With the extra cash I’m going to get chivalry in 6 at a –29gpt deficit. Bull run will still get KoT in 1 when we switch.
I see the workers planting forest on the tundra. I‘ve never used that trick. Chop for shields and then replant for 2 shields. Nice!

IT – More troops coming but nothing serious.
LSU – Horse > Cath prebuild
Sherman – Lib > Colliseum prebuild for KNIGHT – yippee!
Otto is building Sistines. I think he is trying to take out our Great Library.

660AD – turn 1
Bedfor – There is a stack standing 1 N that looks like it is there to get some pre-emptive strikes. I kill one archer with E horse.
An archer got on our hill where a city is going found next turn. Got him with an E Jav. Started some more planting. I just remembered we had the Pyramids so I sold our 2 granaries for 30g. Slider now Chiv in 5 @ -15gpt. 2(2)-0

IT- The sword I thought might attack from the hill get off the hill to look for a better target. Not a good decision guys.
Tecumseh - MDI > Coll p-build
Chatt – Harbor > Coll p-build
Lancaster riots! I check every turn! Sorry guys. EDIT- I pulled the MP probably.
Little RT – Walls > Pike in 6.

670AD – turn 2
Fix Lancaster up with a taxman. It is 4-1-4
Bedford – Kill a rouge spear and a settle/spear pair with elites. 2 slaves.
Founded Nashville on hill. Man, I guess I should have taken ot the Aztec town, prying it won’t flip. Killed a sword, 3 archers. 6(5)-0. Pillaging goes well. Otto has his horses hooked up again.
Pulled 2/4 pikes from Georgia to help support effort. Its loaded with units.

IT- Americans ask us to stop it. Sorry. They then drop off a spear next to Chicago and swing 2 horses out of the fog.
Greebleyville – Court > Horse(to be knight). Corruption at 3-3 50%

680AD – turn 3
Bedford – Killed a Chaqui Scout
Founded Iron Hill near S Iron
Chicago – Killed Archer and a spear. 2 American horse on hill have options at IT. All pikes.
A of Cumberland takes out the Otto horses again. We need 3 armies to cover that land up there.

IT – The horses get off the hill but don’t attack. They’re suicidal.
Mannassas – Settler > Settler in 15. I was tempted to go courthouse. Also, it now has forest in the tundra that is 1f2s. I think we can irrigate over some of its mines that only get 1s for better balance.

690AD – turn 4
Chicago horses go down to E horse and a MDI.
I kill 2 other archers near Nashville.
Assault on Tlax. I kill 3 spears losing 1 Jav and it leaves 1 archer in town.

IT – Nothing. A spear ran into Tlax

700AD – turn 5.
Tlax is razed killing an archer and injured spear. Then I went stupid and hurried walls in Nashville. Probably will never need them at the rate we’re going. I’ve had only a couple attacks on cities in 20 turns.
Moving troops to new capital on NW coast. Cuzco’s wines are disconnected.

IT – 5 archers and 2 horses pop out of fog with their weapons trembling in their hands. They form a perimeter near Bedford and Georgia.
CHIVALRY is here! Invention set
Resaca – Lib > Pike
Nashville walls go to a temple. Subject to change.

710AD – turn 6
Templar due next turn in Bull Run
LSU palace is in 32 so I have to speed up research from lone scientist. Shoot! I wonder if I should burn some shields off? It has 95 shields in the till right now. I’m going to slow it down a bit to palace in 41 and give Bull Run more shields. Builds are switched on 3 cities with colloseums and we get 3 knights over the next 3 turns 1-2-3. We are at 106g and 105 gpt so I can up grade next turn. Invention in 50! I hurry the market in Lancaster for 44g. While playing with MM I see savannah is on market in 26 getting 3 of 12 shields. I switch it to court in 15, then we can go to market and get it that much quicker. Same with Augusta, court in 2. Is this right thinking. The markets will build faster than before with decreased corruption. Missionary Ridge too. I think that if you have over 50% corruption market should come 1st. Let me know if I should hit myself over the head with the pipe I may be smoking. Besides Augusta you can switch them back.
Oh yeah, I killed 2 Otto horses.

IT- More troops moving but not attacking
Tecumseh – Knight > Knight
Bull Run – Templar > Market
Lancaster – Market > Temple, we’re running a clown there.

720AD – turn 7
Near Bedford a chaq scout and an archer buy the farm. I’m sending the 3 knights coming off the assembly line to Bedford so that we can start a push for dyes. Next leader can have at it or re-rout to elsewhere. I upgrade a horse in Nashville.

IT – No attacks.
Sherman – Knight > Knight
Augusta – Court > Market in 20 I think it was 16 before s it’s like getting a court in 6.

730AD – turn 8
Bedford – I kill one archer bomb another in jungle to 1 /4.
Nashville I bomb an archer to 2/3 and then get an Army for our 3 knights to jump into.
Near Georgia I kill 2 archers. I weeded not making the GL into an army before attacking with 2 elites.
Upgraded another Knight. F1 check shows Resaca must have grown ‘cause it wants to riot next turn. I don’t want to give up the 2 shield tile so it’s stuck at 10 for a while.

Sherman_730L.jpg


IT – I got ATTACKED! 2 horses attacked the pike I had covering the MDI that got the leader. 1 dead horse and an injured 1/4 left.
Chattanooga – Knight > Knight

740AD – turn 9
Assault on Tlacopan (NW city and capital) – 4 wins – 0 losses. Keeping it cause of the whales. Starving now with taxmen. Virginia Beach folds in to our empire.
Near Bedford a knight kills an archer and goes elite! And near Nashville an MDI goes elite.

IT- No attacks.

750AD – turn 10
I form up the Nashville Volunteer Army of Knights and went a killing. Near Bedford they had been stacking guys up in the jungle and I had been bombing them. Now I decided since there were around 6 archers/spears there in assorted state of injury it was time to knock a few off. I killed 2 spears and 2 archers. The army went elite and the other 3 boys I used went 3 for 3 on kills but have a few injuries.

I have a settler very near where Greebley left me his heading to the other floodplain city NE of Nashville. Those 2 archers nearby are heading to
There is a worker train, in shackles of course, moving between Savannah and Paducah. They had finished the foresting operations on Iron Hill peninsula and are heading up to do what you may want. Sorry about the over-forestation. I see now that 2 of the tiles I forested will not be used.
On the Leo’s prebuild / Invention discovery time discrepancy we can jack the research up when it gets closer. Upgrading knights takes priority right now. I’m mining around Georgia because with all the food bonuses it doesn’t need 2 food in plains. 1 casualty and probably 20-30 wins. Also look for the 1st crusader to roll off I think in 2 turns. One last thing is that I think Jonesboro should be abandoned to give cities some breathing room and not screw us on FP rank and the dot map has a desert city between the 2 oasis's that should be moved to 1 tile S of the current Aztec city. A #4,5 city that would get hardly any shields makes no sense. know you guys want 3 spacing but I don't think we're going to be very threatened now that we have knights.
ShermanCru.jpg
 
I've been pondering the time it will take to slog our way through the jungle to get to the dyes and I think I have a better idea. Build a few boats and send a few other pikes/workers. If we can knock off Oil Springs it will give us a toehold to 3 very close luxs and one right away with a rushed harbor. The army that is in the vicinity can go and post up on the land bridge to keep anyone from getting in. We run the knight army up, attack and if not successful hide under army until healed. They can only boat new troops in if we're blocking the bridge. From there we can send other knights up and start a new front. This one here is taking far too long and it will speed up development of our south if we give them something to worry about up there. EDIT: Except that we have dyes already. Good launch spot though if we can control sea there.
Shermanatt.jpg
 
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