GR2 - Sherman's War (C3C AW).

[Greebley]

I agree with you on America. I think the best idea is to take Boston and stop. We can then get Armies in easily to pillage, which will slow down their troop production.

I think best is to do a swap of Handy and Barbslinger. Barbslinger, you play first as you stated. Handy stated he would be back this weekend so Handy will go after Barbslinger and then TMcC.

So:
Roster:
Greebley (JUST PLAYED)
Handy900 (SWAPPED-ON DECK)
BarbSlinger (UP)
TMcC

Note that we have 3 or so settlers to settle. I like keeping the American towns - they have good Sherman names. I was thinking we may want to set up towns in the choke point, so unit cannot pass without bombardment. We can they move the main defense to perhaps 2 towns at the chokes.

I also was not exactly sure on city placement E of Allegheny. Since we need to clear marsh before we can settle on it, we may need workers up there to do so. I was thinking that settling on the squares that are both coastal and on the river would be best. Also replacing the Aztec town?

 

[barbslinger]

Will try to post tonight after work. I'm still only 2 turns in on MB4 and the 1st two took 5 hours. Looks like an all nighter.

 

[T_McC]

A few quick notes:

If we keep the pre-build in Georgia, we are committed to researching Gunpowder --> Education --> Music Theory at full speed, otherwise we will build a rather expensive Bach's. If Slinger agrees with Greebley's Bach's idea, he should switch Georgia to the Palace to buy some more time. If we want to ditch the pre-build, Georgia can complete a library next turn. I'm willing to continue the pre-build, free content people is always good. And ...

We will own our continent long before Cavalry. So it behooves us to jump on the Education branch after researching Gunpowder. We can capture the Great Lighthouse from the Incas, so we can have 5-move caravels, which should alleviate any risk of sinking in Ocean tiles. Once we hit Astronomy we can go looking for trouble on the other continent. We need a minimum of 5 caravels, 3 carrying 2-knight armies, the other 2 carrying the six knights that will fill each army out to 4 units. Those armies aren't coming back, so they might as well be full strength.

One piece of good news, 3 of the surviving AI have Theology, so we might get Education for free. But I wouldn't count on that.

We should discuss how many of the AI on our continent we should let survive. I figure the Incas have to go, since we will capture a useful wonder from them. The Iros can go, because they are in our way for settling the continent. Abe can stay, since he is on a peninsula by himself. So maybe Osman can stay with a tundra city at the end. I think we benefit from living civs by making techs significantly more expensive for the other continent to research. When we get close to the domination limits, the survivors can meet the sword.

More later, including a dot-map of the jungle. I think Slinger will be playing very late in the east, so will get to read messages before playing.

 

[Greebley]

Remember you can choose to play only 5 if you want in this game (I really should have done this myself and not stayed up so late last night ).

TMcC, Sistine is not a bad wonder either. It makes cathedrals very nice. I think we can probably get both. I would stay on course with Sistine, but switch if Education becomes common (i.e. either way we don't need to research education).

If we do it this way, then we can decide if we want to start a pre-build of bachs later on. I think we have enough cities to be able to do this if we want.

The AI on our continent will not be building fast with no mines.

 

[barbslinger]

Was Jonesboro disbanded yet? Or do we wait until hospitals. I don't know how much it is impacting corrupyin in Bedfor, Augusta and Lancaster but I'm sure it is.

 

[Greebley]

No it was pop 3 I think. Maybe switch to workers?

 

[barbslinger]

I don't think we'll have much competition getting both of them along with pretty much every other wonder from here on out. I'm really hot for Magellans and the Lighthouse though. Getting 2-3 armies over there before they can reach us would be great. Soften them up before we come over with 40-50 cavs.
I think I'll play this one when I get home at 12pm pacific time. I dot map would be TMcC. As long as we get the choke near Otto's Antalya. That hillNW of Antalya looks good. A group of Knights sitting on the mountain 2 E of hill and fortress on the other side and we can let the workers clear jungle uncovered inland.

 

[Greebley]

My thoughts on cities to hold the gap would be on the horses SW of Salamanca, and Directly E of S.

I tried to make a dot map. I am not thrilled with it., but here it is. Maybe TMcC will have time to do better:

[Edit: The red arrow is pointing to another spot that covers the 3 squares to the S and is less crowded.

 

[barbslinger]

I like the map and agree with forward city placement. I think we have a lot of workers doing overtime on jungle clearing and I plan to divert some of them to road to Salamnca to hook up gems. I want to take Antalya, Salamanca and Boston. Get the new cities planted and start on fortresses (open for discussion because it is probably a waste of worker effort at the pace we're conquering). I want to begin pillaging America and get gems hooked up.
On tech I think I'm going to get Gunpowder and upgrade forward pikes to muskets and then go to the upper branch (open to discussion though I think we can take this continent easily with our knights and then up grade to cavs with Leos aid later at reduced cost.) to get at Astro/Nav and the wonders associated with them. Domestically I want to increase research capability and money while producing 20 or so knights during my turns.

Let me know your thoughts.

 

[Greebley]

Your plan sounds like a good one to me. I agreee going the other side of the tech tree is looking attractive. We don't need Cav to kill archers and spear!

There are NO workers clearing jungle. All the workers have been building roads to get to the dye. There is a stack that can move forward - build road in 1 turn - move forward - etc. We really needed the dye lux. I would just continue to use that stack to work your way to the gems. It should make pretty good time. You could add even more workers to be able to have 2 teams that move in tandem which would road a square every turn. The number currently in the stack is about 1 1/2 as many as you need so it might not be hard to scrounge up the remaining half. One advantage to doing that is we can also get our Tree-buckets to the forward cities.

We will need to clear the jungle at some point, but I hadn't yet started on my turn. Maybe we should pop off some workers from size 12 towns. We have a decent number, but have a TON of stuff to do and foreign workers are SLOW.


BTW, I haven't checked but I was wondering if the Foreign workers were no longer affected by the Industrious trait. I am guessing the answer is yes so that 3 workers equal one of ours rather than 2. Can anyone definitively say, or is it all in my imagination?

 

[barbslinger]

Originally posted by Greebley
I am guessing the answer is yes so that 3 workers equal one of ours rather than 2. Can anyone definitively say, or is it all in my imagination?

I thought the foreign workers were roading in 6 on grass and if our industrious workers did it in 2 that's 3 to1. I'll check after I peel a few off. The peeled workers in a stack would do a quicker job on jungle Clearing a 3x3 initially. Clear, mine and road with 1 stack would be nice. I think 12 workers would do that in 1 turn.

Greebley, I see in another thread your out from x-mas to the 5th or 6th. I'm going to Tucson from the 25th to the 29th. Hopefully we can get the rotation back around to you before you leave. I saw the patch won't be out until Monday at the earliest.

 

[Yom]

[/delurk]

Actually, the ratio is 4:1, an industrious worker takes 1 and 1/2 turns to road, but it gets rounded up.

 

[T_McC]

We aren't going to have any use for Sistine in this game, as we will never build a cathedral. Why? We currently have 3 lux in hand, with a 4th to be added on Slinger's turns. By the time Handy and I finish our turns we will have 5, and the 6th will soon follow. On Monarch, 6 lux lets us be happy to size 9, without any buildings, MP, or lux tax. Add a Temple for size 10, a Market bumps that to 16, and MP gives from 17-19. Just by taking over our own continent, we wouldn't have to build a 160-shield cathedral until our cities were size 20, and we are unlikely to have any size 20 cities. I believe the lux tax will go off for good when we get our 4th luxury, and the 5th liberates a number of units from MP duties. So Sistines is strictly for denial.

I agree with Slinger's research plan to hit the Education branch after Gunpowder. We can then ruin the 2nd continent while we return to the lower branch. I honestly believe we will not reach the Industrial Age in this game, or we will only reach it if we feel a critical need for rails. If the 2nd continent is behind us in technology when we meet, they should never see rifles, and we should never need artillery.

With a few back of the envelope calculations, I think we can get Gunpowder in 6, the Education in 8, then either Music Theory in 7 or Astronomy in 11. These numbers could go down as we are able to reduce the lux tax. My plan would be this: Immediately switch Georgia to a library, then after it completes restart a Palace pre-build. Research Guns, Edu, and then Astronomy. The pre-build in Georgia is for Copernicus' (always useful for self-research, and in one of our two "corruption-free" cities). Once we get to Guns, put Chatanooga on Sistines to pre-build for Magellan's. I guesstimate that Navigation will take ~10 turns after Astronomy (they are the same price). So Georgia will build for ~24 turns (500 shields), and should be able to instantly complete Copernicus. Chatanooga will be building for ~30 turns (450 shields), and should then instantly complete Magellan's. The only possible hang-up is if the Ottos (or someone else) completes Sistine before we discover Astronomy. I don't think that is very likely, but there are ways around that. [Swap Chatanooga to Cathedral, then immediately to University to hold 160 shields and 2 turns building time. Repeat as necessary until Astronomy comes in and the Palace becomes available.]

If my calculations in the first paragraph are correct (and check them yourself), we really don't need either Bach's or Sistine. So why spend shields or beakers on things we don't need? Let the AI build super-cathedrals instead of military, see what good it does them.

 

[T_McC]

Originally posted by Yom
[/delurk]

Actually, the ratio is 4:1, an industrious worker takes 1 and 1/2 turns to road, but it gets rounded up.

lurker's comment:

Beg to differ. In C3C, the industrious bonus is 50% faster workers, not 100% faster. So industrious workers to take 2 full turns to complete what normal workers do in 3. Roads on flat ground is a bad example, as it can't show the difference. It is more noticable when mining, as industrious workers now take 8 turns (12 for regular workers), whereas before they could complete in 6. In PTW and vanilla Civ3, what you said is correct.

So 6 involuntaries = 3 regular = 2 industrious.

 

[T_McC]

First, a map of our immediate northern front.

This doesn't differ much from what Greebley proposed. I agree with the red dot on the hill south of Boston (and to keep or replace Boston). I agree to found on the two piles of ruins in the east. Greebley and I also agree on the black dot SE of Atlanta (and bananas). The only thing I added was the black dot between Atlanta and Cattaraugus, where an Otto spear currently stands.

Now for a map that goes farther north:

The red dot in the extreme SW is from the previous map. I moved Greebley's Salamanca dot 1 farther NE, still on the coast and a lake, so that enemies have to approach on flat ground. The other two red dots form a "do-not-pass" zone for enemy units. Most attacks will again have to come from flat ground, as we only need to control the hill N of Antalaya. Oil Springs is off the eastern edge of this map. Founding a city anywhere on that little peninsula would be fine.

The black dots are cities to stage the final breakthrough. Again we take the high ground south of Grand River. The blue-squared black dot is the last stand of the Ottomans. Once we secure that position, there is no terrain remaining that can slow our troops, and our exclusivity on mounted units should allow a lot of killing. That will become the focal point for the AI in the north. Conveniently enough, it also claims another lux for us. The western black dot is one more high-ground site in case the AI want to attack through the mountains.

So don't be skimpy with the settlers. There are 11 proposed city sites on these two maps.

 

[Greebley]

Ya, I will be out for about a week. Not exactly sure of the times yet, but it will be aprox Dec 27 to Jan 5. I should know more for sure soon and will post.

TMcC,

I think putting towns on the river is pretty important here. We want the unit support of (+2 without an aquaduct). A little crowding and such doesn't matter unless the town location can get +2 gold more for whatever reason off the river than on. At least that is how I figure it....

 

[T_McC]

Originally posted by Greebley
I think putting towns on the river is pretty important here. We want the unit support of (+2 without an aquaduct). A little crowding and such doesn't matter unless the town location can get +2 gold more for whatever reason off the river than on. At least that is how I figure it....

OK. The two black dots on the first dot map are on rivers. The two eastern red dots are not. One solution is to move both dots 1 space north, putting the southern dot on the irrigated river grass tile. Or one could move the northern red dot 1 south, but only after clearing the marsh. (I think you can not build a city on a marsh tile, but the civilopedia doesn't specify.) Then the southern red dot can go SW, and another city can probably be founded between the northern red dot and Antalaya.

Or, how about this ...

Build the two red dots now, and the blue dot when we have spare labor. There are enough unique coastal tiles that I'm sure all four cities in the area can grow to 7+. Black dot is just sort of a wild guess.

In the northern dot map there is only one river. Two of the three red dot cities are on lakes. Depending on how quick our advance is, we could contort those cities around to get three cities around the lakes.

 

[Greebley]

That would probably work. The only change I might make is to move the black dot 1 square N on the final map. then a single town can attacl all units going south of the lake at the narrow point of the continent.

Not sure how likely such a town would be needed. We may be in the "roll over the enemy" phase so it is not at all important.

 

[barbslinger]

950AD inherited turn of Shermans war

Only had movement on the galley which culd not attack so I slid back one square. Liked Handys idea on Bachs and Sistenes so bye-bye sistene in Georgia, hello lib. Seattle set to tax collectors to starve and a Pike/cat from Paducah sent towards the front. City happiness OK. F1 OK. We have 20 knights with 2 more rolling off next turn. 7 glorious armies are pillaging/ fighting and the rumor among the knight armies is that they may be sent overseas. Wasted 5 shields in Charleston switching longbow to pike. Sent Jav in town to the front. Leader in Andersonville thinking about a university or an army. Army of knights again he declares! Sherman the magnificent demands war! However since he is tuckered out and no movement he will rest in town for 10 years and then get around to making that army he promised. I have 2 Otto archers threatening, that’s it. $5 says they run away.

IBT- They ran onto the hill thinking they will beat the army there. Galley from America ran into Boston harbor. Other misc movement of little note.
Tecumseh – knight > knight
Georgia - Lib > Palace for Copernicus
Chatt – Galley > Sistine for Magellans
Vir Beach – Galley > Galley
Lancaster – knight > knight
Charleston Pike > Pike

960AD – turn 1
Cleaned up 4-5 of the riff-raff in the jungle nearly losing a jav but, alas, gaining another slave. Knight army near Boston captures Boston losing 2 hp. Sending in backup. Trebuckets head towards front. Shifting workers out of jungle to aid in core and get road to Salamanca. Pillagers discover Otto has horses hooked up in Bursa again. I shift sci-sli to gun in 4 at –17. 82g in coffers. We’re up at least chiv and invention, they are all nearly broke. Atlanta set to starve some more.

IBT- Army in Boston gets attacked. Kills a horse. Lose 1 MDI in jungle.
Williamham – Worker > worker
Mannassas riots. Oops, better check F1 everytime. Empty food box. Checking now to see if any town due to grow.

970AD - turn 2
Switched Charleston to courthouse, same shields as the library, it is now due in 19 with more mines coming in. It is 4-4 on shields. Army formed with 2 knights. Not much to write except that I am forming up for attacks on Salamanca and Antalya taking the settlers with me. The ones in production can back fill. Boston army is being threatened by 2 spears this turn only. 3 buckets and 2 pikes are moving in next turn. Looks like it needs 1 more unit in it to not get attacked.

IBT- America pillages Boston’s mines!
LSU – Leo’s Workshop! > knight
Sherman – knight > knight
Mannassas back to civil order.

980AD – turn 3
I knock out a couple of jungle spears, move the backups into Boston and then take on our first galley. We had two there and I sent the vet vs their reg. We went down 3 hp out of the gate and right when the I looked over at the army within sight we won 3 hp in a row to record the 1st naval victory! I covered him with the othe vet. A 1 knight army,5 knight,1 horse,1 MDI settler and 2 pikes are converging on Antalya while a similar group is closing in on Salamanca with trebucket support. Guns in 2

IBT- Chaqui scout took me by surprise running that extra step in the jungle. He thinks he’s gonna take Atlanta.
Shiloh – Temple > worker
Augusta > Lib > worker
Jonesboro – Settler > worker in 3 and then abandon

990AD – turn 4
In Boston I bomb a spear down to 1hp and then a 5/5 jav can’t do the job. 2 losses now. Knocked off 2 archers, a spear/settler combo for 2 slaves. The aforementioned scout and a spear.

IT- Gun comes in. Education in 10 at +60gpt or 7 at +6gpt. I’ll bounce back and forth. I want to upgrade the Atlanta pikes and then the Salamanca ones once I capture. No attacks though a new grop of regs step up to the chopping block.
Tecumseh – knight > knight
Paducah – knight > knight

1000AD turn 5
5/5 crusader in Allegenney gets 2 slaves from a spear escort. Closing in. Workers are with Salamanca group to hok up dyes. I also have groups improving Georgia core. I just saw that Salamnca has the Great Wall. I’m going to capture it and next leader can pul the raze trigger after discussion. It is obsolete after metallurgy so maybe we can keep it until then and then switch. I don’t know yet. I’m off to raze havoc. Wines are now cut again around Cuzco. Otto has his capital horses hooked up again.

IT- Nothing of note except more archers coming over to watch me raze Antalya.
LSU – knight > knight
Shiloh – worker > lib
Allegeney – worker > worker
Resaca – market > worker
Mannassas – court > temple
Augusta – worker > market

1010AD – turn 6
I changed Virginia Beach from galley to temple, we still don’t have the expansion to get the whale. Muskets are 45g upgrade. We have the 1st one in Atlanta. Kinda appropriate I think. Dateline Antalya: 3 knights take out 2 spears and an archer and burn it to the ground losing 1 hp between all of them. Now I am perplexed as to where to put this settler in tow. I’ll go with TMcC’s and place the 1st choke next to the lake if I can get there. Just saw LSU was going to starve. MM’ed to no growth and 20 shields. Salamanca should fall next turn and have a road connected up in 2. I’m expecting gems by the end. After writing that I decided to go back and I took out two spears at the cost of 1 hp. Now I’ll hit enter.

IT- No attacks due to temp chokes I have set up.
Bull Run - > the always welcomed knight/crusader combo > knight
Savannah – Galley > Lib in 20
Paducah riots at pop12. MM’ed on the spot. I think I’m tired.
Jonesboro – Last worker and abandoning after writing this.
Briar Creek – worker > worker
Palace gets trees in the front to remind take Shermans mind off the jungle in the north 40.

1020AD – turn 7
Lets go to the good stuff. I bomb Salamanca and the palace is destroyed! Great shot guys . Salamanca is captured and RAZED killing 2 spears and getting a slave. Great wall schmate wall. The choke is more important. 2 cities going up next turn. Settler in route to 3rd city placement for choke. I’m going to put him on a boat near Bedford. I have 4 galleys there now. Boston gets its #3 knight to take the army inland to pillage America. Abandoning Jonesboro did not make a difference on the shield counts in Lancaster, Bedford or Augusta. Will check after turn thinking it will recalculate.

IT- A few archers jump on Pikes Peak in the middle of the jungle. I have plenty to cover Atlanta. Missionary Ridge – court > Aqueduct in 9.

1030AD – turn 8
Pikes Peak and Dixon are founded.Gems hooked up. Lux to 0% and education in 3 at –42gpt or 4 at –9gpt with 158g in bank. I go with 3 turns. We really have no need to upgrade as yet and if we do need to we can turn slider back. All clowns, taxmen given their walking papers. Still waiting on ¼ knight I put into Boston army to heal to go pillaging. We have 3 archers and a spear behind our lines and they will be disappearing shortly. The 3 cities I spoke of before did have a corruption improvement. 1 shield each. Cobb already has it’s first galley come into port to fortify and get some pointers on fighting.

IT- 3 archers on mountain head south thinking about trying to raise Cain somewhere else.
Tecumseh – knight > knight
Sherman – knight > knight
Resaca – worker > court
Chicago – temple > court
Freaking Paducah riots. We get a 3rd floor on the palace.
1040AD – turn 9
Nothing really but consolidation of front. The final front settler is in place for next turn planting. Killed a 1/3 archer sittin next to our front lines and got a slave. Dang, a 4/4 jav from a hill lost to a 3/3 spear in jungle behind our lines. Killed the perp with a knight. Jungle clearing begins.

IT- They shuffle around making bets on who and where the next guy will die.
LSU – knight > knight
Lancaster – knight > library
Nashville – market > aqueduct
We get a snazzy west wing on the palace.

1050AD – turn 10
The army in Boston ventures into what is left of America. The army in Incan lands has finished with the wines and is heading to oil springs. The otto empire patrol is actually looking for something to pillage. Wanted to head up to the gems again but as long as they don’t connect I could really care less and sure enough Bursa has the horses hooked up again. Mason is founded to complete the Mason-Dixon line. The last of the enemies have been vanquished from our jungle.

I have workers on the mason-dixon line doing roads and clearing. Right click to see whats up there. I screwed up on Boston and forgot to starve. It’s starving now. It already grew a pop too. Same with Atlanta. you can also get education in 1 if you like. I like but forgot to cave it that way. I may have saved it that way and the pic was taken prior.

The SAVE

 

[Greebley]

Good turns. We have one more lux on our continent I believe? (Ivory)


I think Handy said he would be back today so lets give him a chance for an "I got it". Handy, if you are back and read this, then post an I got it or a request to switch with TMcC.

If we don't hear from Handy within 24 hours (from now), then you can take TMcC.