GR8 - Phoenix Rising

[Greebley]

We may be able to trade with the Aztecs for horses?

Culture war might be interesting. If we do it then we should plant our town outside the 20 workable squares of seoul. This looks to be 2 squares west of seoul. Rushing Culture could give us the lead, but it will be expensive. The reason is that an AI is more likely to declare war if you are within his 20 workable squares (I am already worried about Erech - if the Aztecs declare war, that is why).

Good progress. I like that we can now attack Spain and go for the iron.

I would go for MT if it looks like we can get horses and physics otherwise.

[Edit: if Aztecs can kill us if they suprise attacked., then abandoning Erech might be called for. It is dangerous. They are fighting the Vikings now but that could change. I wouldn't want to lose the game due to that town. In any case we should keep defense in the border cities.]

 

[Heroes]

Solid progress, thanks!
I got it. I will go for military tradition absolutely, it's not quite useful to learn the "empty tech" physics.
BTW: In the "big picture" deal with Persia, they didn't accept gpt because we didn't use F1 to make gpt realistic, I guess.

 

[Heroes]

Prefligh, 850 AD (200):
We have 22 towns, 151 citizens, 6% of world area and 10% of world population. Our top rivals are Celts (18% area) and Hittites (19% pop).

We have 76 units: 14 workers, 2 archers, 16 longbows, 1 musketman (yeah!), 1 galley, 2 armies, 24 old good Enkidu warriors, 16 trebuchets. Allowed units are 46, so we pay 60 gpt for units. We are in peace with everyone, but our so-called SoD is going to crush Spain, who is being beaten by Hittites (and Carthage?).

We are researching military traditon in 7 turns with -5 gpt. That's from 270 gpt to science (60% slider) and 15 scientists.

I drag the slider to 0% to see how much horses cost. Aha, 57 gpt + 49 gold before haggle. I think it's cheaper to fight a culture war near Seoul to get the horse. According to Greebley's suggestion, the town should be outside the 20 tiles of Seoul, so I know where it should be.

Our deals just expire with everyone, so it's the time to review them:

Spain: RoP, and Wines = Dyes. We will go to war soon. They have 93 gold, 19 free gpt, 1 iron, no horse nor saltpeter, 6 cities, 7213 culture. They are under monarchy, and our military is STRONG comparing to them! They are up all the visible techs except physics. They are fighting Hittites, Carthage, Arbas, and Ottomans, having RoP with Aztecs and Vikings.

Hittites: Nothing. I'm worrying for this. We'd better have some gpt deal going with them to avoid sneak attack. They have 1309 gold, 37 cities, 9017 culture. Of course we are weak comparing to them, and they are up all the visible techs. They are monarchy. They are fighting Spain, Vikings, and Celts, and having RoP with Arabs, Ottomans, Carthage, Persia, not with Aztecs. They are in IA.

Aztecs: Wines = 5 gpt. They have 3 gold, no free gpt, and their only resource to sell is horse. They have 29 cities, 5082 culture. Republic, all visible techs, and we are weak. They are fighting Viking, Persia, and Carthage, and having RoP with Arabs, Ottomans, and Spain. They are in IA.

Vikings: Wines + 8 gpt = Silks. They have 402 gold, 3 incenses, and free gpt. They have 10 cities and 5410 culture. Monarchy, and we are weak. Up all the visible techs. Fighting Hittites, Aztecs, Carthage, Persia, Arabs, Celts, and Ottomans. They are close to be toast! Let's not SELL them resource. It might be a good idea to buy techs for gpt from them. Having RoP with Spain, the only civ in peace with them other than us. They are in IA.

Carthage: Nothing. They have 1453 gold, 9 cities, 11640 culture, and all the visible techs. Republic, and we are AVERAGE in military. Fighting Aztecs, Vikings, Persia, Ottomans, and Spain, they are going to be toast too. Don't sell them resource. RoP with Hittites, Celts, and Arabs. They are in IA.

Celts: Wines + 7 gpt = Furs. They have neither cash nor free gpt. They have 39 cities, 25246 (!) culture, and all the visible techs. ANARCHY, and we are weak. Fighting Hittites and Vikings. RoP with Carthage. We need an embassy to know more. They are in IA.

Ottomans: Wine = 5 gpt. They have 1645 gold, 20 cities, 13115 culture (the only one reaching 1/2 of Celts'), and all the visible techs. Democracy, and we are weak. IA also. Fighting Spain, Vikings, and Carthage. RoP with Hittites and Aztecs. Need embassy.

Persia: Nothing. They have 222 cash, 17 cities, 7377 culture. They are up music theory, banking, navigation, but not physics and military traditon. They may be our good trade partner. Monarchy, and we are weak. Fighting Aztecs, Vikings, and Carthage. RoP with Hittites. Need embassy.

Arabs: Nothing. No cash, no free gpt, 12 cities, 5082 culture. They are DOWN printing press, education, and chemsitry. Republic, and we are STRONG. Poor Abu is fighting Spain and Vikings. RoP with Hittites, Aztecs, and Carthage. Need embassy.

We are selling 5 wines to Spain, Aztecs, Vikings, Celts, and Ottomans, buying furs from Celts, dyes from Spain (but we just get 1 resource near Kua), and silks from Vikings.

Now, what to do? Before declaring to Spain, I would like to make some deals with Hittites and Aztecs to minimize their chance of attack. And buying lux will be cheaper if we have less lux. So:

Hittites: Wines = Territory Map + 463 gold. Their attitude changes from furious to annoyed. Now we temporarily have no wines.
Vikings: Cancel wine + 8 gpt = silk deal.
Ottomans: Wines = Territory Map + 102 gold. From annoyed to cautious.
Celts: Wines + World Map + 70 gold = Furs + Territory Map.
Aztecs: Buy RoP for 117 gold. World Map + 9 gold = Territory Map.
Celts: WM + 223 gp = WM.
Persia: WM = WM + 30 gp.
Viking: WM = WM + 12 gp.
Spain: WM = WM + all their 93 gp. They have 19 free gpt, let's hope that it's not enough to buy in Aztecs against us.
Aztecs: WM = WM + 10 gp.
Carthage: WM + 33 gp = WM.
Ottomans: WM = WM + 1 gp.
Hittites: WM = WM + 3 gp.

Good, we get the fullest WM. Then trade it back to every one except Spain, we earn 30 gold from Aztecs, 77 from Persia, 112 from Celts, 6 from Carthage, and 40 from Vikings.

For some reason, the trade route to Persia is still locked. MapStat says we can trade? I save game, quit, and reenter, then wines + 2 gp = ivory, which replaces the silk from Vikings.

Rush lib in Marad for 116 gold, to ensure it beats Manp'o in culture. Rush settler in Paegam for 48 gold, to grab the sacred horse near Seoul.

Now it's war time! Cancel the wine and RoP deals with Spain, declare war. Our 2 armies proudly enter Spain with a horde of SoD (9 longbows, 1 archer, 13 trebs).

Ah, many of our cities don't have any defender! Try to shuffle some units to have literal defense.

We don't need more longbows. Sumer to settler, Kish to university, Sariwon to granary, Umma to courthouse, Agade to settler (we indeed should build settler and worker from the cities with granary, and a city with granary should be always growing), Erech to granary.

IT: Persia and Aztecs sign peace. Der lib -> market, Paegam settler -> lib, Akshak courthouse -> university, Suwon lib -> uni, Madrad lib -> uni.

860 AD (201): Rush lib in Kutha for 156 gold.

IT: Aztecs + Ottomans sign MA vs. Spain! Now nobody can save Isabella.
Hittites + Aztecs sign MA vs. Carthage. Hittites declares.
Sumer settler -> worker, Namp'o worker -> worker, Pyongsong settler -> courthouse, Kutha lib -> courthouse.

870 AD (202):
Siege of Barcelona. The top defender is a vet pike, thanks to Aztec cavalries.
Bombardment reveals 3 vet pikes, 1 regular musket, and reduce them to 2 HP. Oh, we are not lucky, 2 attacks don't do a scratch. But at last, we capture Barcelona and Bach's Cathedral (our first wonder)! Move everybody into it to quell resistor when it cannot flip. Its probability of flip is 30.968% for having 10 resistors ...

Found Nagsu to steal horse near Seoul. Hurry a worker for 80 gold, then switch to lib and rush again for 120 gold.

IT: Ur musket -> musket. Quell 3 resistors in Barcelona. Sumer worker -> uni. Umma court -> uni. Nagsu lib -> uni.

880 AD (203):
We now own horse! Not because of Nagsu, but because of Namp'o, whose culture just reaches 12. Persia learns MT, so our cost is reduced.
After bomb, kill a pike roaming to Barcelona. March to Toledo.
Join a settler into Umma, which is gold rich but food poor. See a Hittites rifle guarding Pamplona.

IT: Arab + Carthage vs. Ottomans. Celts suggests TM = TM, after haggle I find there is nothing to add, ok then.
Bad-Tibira market -> uni, Agade settler -> settler. People are so happy that they expand our palace twice.

890 AD (204):
Persia knows physics. Spain is willing to talk, but won't give us the iron city, sorry Isabella! Dear Abu gets some cash from Hannibal for fighting Osman (I bet it's not good for their future). Gift them all our 145 gold, then Education = all their 434 gold.

We are selling wines for 5 gpt to Aztecs, which looks cheap. Now MT is due in 2 turns with 314 science investment or 3 turns with 269, so I change it to Wines + WM + 172 gold = MT + WM. I don't think we can get ToG or Magnetism earlier than Persia, so I start researching banking, due in 4 (!) turns with -20 gpt.

IT: Hittites calls for our help to fight Vikings: "CIVNAME6 seeks your aid in our rightful struggle against the accursed Vikings." Oh, my god! Please first spell your name correctly!
Barcelona worker -> worker, Sariwon granary (it's making 10 fpt!) -> worker, Zabalam court -> aqueduct.

900 AD (205):
Gosh, Spain enters IA, Isabella looks so beautiful. Bombard Toledo, where are 1 regular musket, 1 regular pike, and 1 regular longbow. Capture it without loss. Now Isabella is willing to give Salamanca (what a great name for the great Iroquois! ) for peace, but why stop here? The next sensible target is Santiago, for 2 dyes near there.

BTW: There is a lot of difference between having only 1 army and having 2 armies.

Found Susa to fill space near Paegam and Barcelona.

IT: Lagash cavalry (!) -> cavalry.

910 AD (206):
The SoD moves near Santiago. The 2nd EW army kills a vet mace going for Barcelona (7/13).

IT: Persia demands territory map + 29 gold, damn, it doesn't hurt, does it? I pay. Hittites and Spain sign peace! Hope they don't sign MA against us.
Vikings and Aztecs sign peace.
Ur cavalry -> cavalry, Erech court -> uni.

920 AD (207):
Bombard Santiago, find 1 regular musket and 2 regular pikes. Lose 2 longbows, but we capture it.

IT: Aztecs and Ottomans sign MA vs. Arabs. Aztecs declares.
Ottomans buys in Hittites vs. Arabs then.
A Spain longbow captures our new worker from Barcelona, then it's killed by an Aztec cavalry. We learn Banking, start Physics.
Barcelona worker -> worker. Toledo deposes, we lose a longbow inside it. Agade settler -> settler, Isin market -> uni.

930 AD (208):
We have only 1 elite archer near Toledo, not good time to attack. Move the trebs back to recapture. Musket gets our slave back. Physics due in 6 turns with +36 gpt.

IT: Celts and Carthage sign MA vs. Aztecs. Celts declares.
Celts and Carthage sign MA vs. Spain.
Sariwon settler -> worker, Kuara lib -> court.

940 AD (209):
Bombard Toledo, but it has only 1 regular pike. Our elite archer recaptures it. Move SoD to Madrid then.

IT: Carthage and Persia sign peace.
Barcelona worker -> worker, Der granary -> uni, Kisurra lib -> market.

950 AD (210):
Madrid has 1 regular musket and 3 regular pikes. A cavalry kills a 2 HP pike, another retreats, a longbow dies, another longbow wins. Our brave 1st EW army finishes off the last 2 defenders, and we capture Madrid!

A longbow kills a longbow going for Toledo, and a musket kills a longbow near Susa.

Physics is due in 4 turns with +45 gpt or 3 turns with -8 gpt.

Some ideas:
1. We have overirrigated many tiles, and are short of worker. Don't we look like AI?
2. Don't sell 2 dyes before Spain is eliminated, otherwise our rep is in danger.
3. After this war, we'd better sit down and get railroad asap, and wait for Aztecs and Hittites beating each other. Before we are strong enough, let's make sure to have some deals with them.
4. Celts is losing cities (now 34 from 39), while Ottomans is gaining (27 from 20). I guess it's the effect of sipahi!
5. We can consider to buy techs for gpt when Viking or Carthage become OCC. Don't sell resource!
6. Maybe we have already won when I return at next Monday night.

Roster:
Greebley
ThERat
Heroes - just played, and will leave soon, back next Monday
Northern Pike - up
MeteorPunch - resigned from all SG's
Obormot - on deck

 

[Obormot]

Nice progress!

1. We have overirrigated many tiles, and are short of worker. Don't we look like AI?

Well, if we don't have enough workers, then lots of irrigation is good, isn't it?

3. After this war, we'd better sit down and get railroad asap, and wait for Aztecs and Hittites beating each other. Before we are strong enough, let's make sure to have some deals with them.

Our science is progressing nicely. With artillery, rails and cavalry we'll be able to kill anybody. Untill we learn RP it is best to sit out and wait, i agree. But it might be a good idea to capture those hittite cities that they captured from spain. They should be quite productive.

4. Celts is losing cities (now 34 from 39), while Ottomans is gaining (27 from 20). I guess it's the effect of sipahi!

That is really nice! Ottomans can also become a runaway AI, but at least the culure threat will be gone.

 

[Heroes]

Our brilliant cavalry guarding Madrid:

 

[ThERat]

Phoenix indeed, but where is the save???

 

[Heroes]

Our science is progressing nicely. With artillery, rails and cavalry we'll be able to kill anybody. Untill we learn RP it is best to sit out and wait, i agree. But it might be a good idea to capture those hittite cities that they captured from spain. They should be quite productive.

That is really nice! Ottomans can also become a runaway AI, but at least the culure threat will be gone.

Yeah, I would like to see that Ottomans beats Celts, which makes me feel that we could win when I come back!

When we learn RP we are surely invincible. Even before that, when we connect our land via railroad, we are in a great position at least for defense. It might be good to capture the former Korea from Aztecs or the former Spain from Hittites, depending on the situation. Isn't deity level somewhat too easy?

 

[Heroes]

The save, sorry:

 

[ThERat]

I was just afraid you leave without the submitting the save

progress is great, we have to get Aztecs and Hittites to fight each other

 

[Greebley]

Good work!

The AI wars have really worked in our favor this game.

Agree on going for steam. I would also like to guard our border with Aztecs better when we can. Getting a few muskets in the towns that can be reached in one turn by the Aztecs would make me feel better. I don't trust them

 

[Heroes]

I was just afraid you leave without the submitting the save

progress is great, we have to get Aztecs and Hittites to fight each other

I'm afraid too.
This game is indeed funny. When we want somebody to be dogpiled, they are then dogpiled. Is this common or lucky?
BTW: Perhaps it's time to build embassies in more civs, except poor Arabs, who is going to say bye soon. We will remember monotheism from them.

 

[Greebley]

I think I would switch the Universities to muskets first. Looking at the game, the Aztecs or Hittites could really damage us badly if they attacked. I would rather play it safe even if it means slowing science a little by not having the Unis. Currently the Aztecs could take out our entire border in one turn and it would cost us the game. I think we can win if we survive this time when we are still a bit fragile for defense.

I think we have gotten lucky this game though we have also been ready to take advantage of any opening left to us by the AI.

Our free tech could be fairly useful when we reach the IA and give us more chances to catch up in tech.

It also looks worthwhile to destroy the Spanish. I also think the Hittites make the better first target than the Aztecs. Our Border with the Aztecs is long and taking out the five ex-Spanish cities seems an easier goal and can be done earlier.

 

[Heroes]

I think I would switch the Universities to muskets first. Looking at the game, the Aztecs or Hittites could really damage us badly if they attacked. I would rather play it safe even if it means slowing science a little by not having the Unis. Currently the Aztecs could take out our entire border in one turn and it would cost us the game. I think we can win if we survive this time when we are still a bit fragile for defense.

I think we have gotten lucky this game though we have also been ready to take advantage of any opening left to us by the AI.

Our free tech could be fairly useful when we reach the IA and give us more chances to catch up in tech.

It also looks worthwhile to destroy the Spanish. I also think the Hittites make the better first target than the Aztecs. Our Border with the Aztecs is long and taking out the five ex-Spanish cities seems an easier goal and can be done earlier.

I agree that we should build more units than infrastructures for now. I apologize. And I think cavalry is better than musket, because AI values it more. I thought we are relatively safe by having gpt deals with those bastards, but does any one how safe is it after all?

I doubt our free tech can do anything, because at that time it's well possible that every one knows the 1st tier techs, again. But I would be glad if I'm wrong.

The Spanish must go, for the honor of Bach! (We don't even know music theory, hard to imagine why our people become happy for that ...)

 

[Obormot]

I agree, cavalry is much better then muskets. Only 1 less defense, but 6 attack and 3 movement for almost the same cost. Even if they declare on us and capture some of our border towns we can easily retake them if we have a big enough SOD of cavalry. And after dealing with spain we can protect 2 threatened towns with armies. I would still build several unis in the towns with most beakers. They cost only 100 shields, so this means only 1 cav less per university.

 

[Northern Pike]

Heroes, fine work managing the complex lux situation.

Got it.

 

[Greebley]

Cavalry would be fine too, though they do not help quite as much against a suprise attack. I don't think the size of our forces will make any difference to an attack by the AI, but the Cav do have use on our turn. Perhaps a Musket in the most vulnerable/valuable towns, so our cav won't be exposed. If we go to war we can use them to defend cities/stacks vs attacking cav so they would not be useless.

I don't know that a gpt deal will help if they decide they don't like having a town within their 20 workable squares.

BTW, the "20 workable squares" theory came from direct evidence. I stole a resource by planting a town to grab iron. The civ was pretty strong and attacked. I then went back to analyze the position, and noticed that if I put the town outside their 20 there was no attack, within the 20 there was an attack. The reason I tested is because another game I placed a city too close and got attacked that also appeared to be due to that one city.

Clearly, the AI doesn't always attack. However, I think our close cities do make it more likely that they will decide to attack. This is a problem for both Hittites and Aztecs. When the Vikings are finished and/or the wars quiet down, then I think (but don't know for sure) that the odds are very good that one or both will turn on us and that removing the cities would reduce this chance.

If they don't attack on the same turn, we can try to go for an alliance with the other.

So the gpt might reduce the effect, but any help is countered by their dislike of our close cities. I am guessing the dislike is higher than the like.

If either of our "too close" cities are still new, We may want to just disband at least one of them to reduce the chance of a double attack.

 

[Greebley]

Congrats on winning COTM16 Obormot.

I was just reading the front page and noticed that you had won. Quite the accomplishment.

 

[Northern Pike]

Greebley, what's our position on repeated resource disconnection in this game? For some of our garrison needs, 10-shield Enks would still be better than 60-shield musketmen--the most shield-efficient defensive unit in the game versus the least.

Thanks for your account of the provocative-cities issue.

 

[Greebley]

I don't feel occasional disconnects are exploitive - especially if we want to specifically build Enkidu.

It may get exploitive if we are switching back and forth every turn or every other turn with immediate cash upgrades.

So if you want to disconnect to build a bunch of MP/cheap defenders, I don't see any problem with that.

 

[Heroes]

I don't think it's necessary to disconnect salt to do upgrade trick, because:
1. We have enough good productive cities with barracks;
2. We don't have much cash;
3. We don't have many workers;
4. It's not possible to immediately reconnect salt by building colony;
5. Without salt connected we can't build cavalry.
I would prefer simply train more units from most the cities with rax, and more workers to mine.