GR8 - Phoenix Rising

[Heroes]

It doesn't have to remain at 2 spt. It is one of our lowest corruption town and should have more squares if we are going to keep it.

The other alternative is to put it on wokers and disband it. Once we have more space, we probably won't want a city that close to the capitol. Raising the rank of every city for 2 or even 5 spt is a waste. I probably do like that idea better than the rax.

That's absolulte true. I found a city there in hope of triggering FP message, but no, it may need 14 cities ... For now, I guess it's ok to keep it and build harbor, lib, and treb (as if it can build a lot of them! ), and when we have a nice amount of land, disband it by building workers and settler.

 

[Greebley]

I think I would rather not keep the town but disband it in the future. In that case we don't want to build anything in it ( i.e, I have completely change my mind on the rax and would switch to a worker or settler.

 

[ThERat]

I agree, abandon the town asap

 

[Heroes]

I agree, abandon the town asap

No, not asap, at least when we have enough (14) cities for FP.

 

[Greebley]

Here is the Roster:

Greebley - Just Played
ThERat - On Deck
Heroes
Northern Pike
Obormot - up

 

[Obormot]

pre-turn
- Lots of MM and reassigning tiles. I want cities to grow fast, but this is difficult because of the tight build and a small number of irrigated tiles. I increase the
lux tax by a notch and have to lower sience a bit, but it'll pay off soon because of faster growth. I decide to keep those coastal cities, they are pretty useless in
terms of production, but with a harbour they can work all those coastal tiles generating tons of cash.
- Trade with Celts: we give wine and some gpt (next players must have "Always renegotiate deals" turned on so that we can get something else from the trade when it
expires), they give guns and furs. Furs allow us to lower the lux back. We have no saltpeter Spanish saltpeter is very close to us. Sell wines to Ottomans for
some gold.
- Start researching Chemistry (14 turns). Persia doesn't know it yet, so we might be able to trade with them. I gifted Arabs into MA, maybe they'll research Monotheism
for us.

660AD
- Bombard Sariwon with trebs, there are 4 spears in there. We fail to redline all of them, but sitting and waiting will get us nowhere, so i attack and we are
successfull. Sariwon is captured without losses.

IBT
- Aztecs capture Korean city of Manp'o

670AD
- Most of our forces advance to Suwon. A few units remain near Sariwon to retake it in case of a flip.

IBT
- Spain joins the dogpile against Korea. Aztecs capture the Korean city of Ulsan. Koreans sink our galley.

680AD
-

IBT
- Spanish city of Pamplona (together with saltpeter) is captured by the Hittites. Soon Spain will be overwhelmed. I would have attacked Spain too, but we still have
16 turns of a treaty.
- Aztecs capture Hyangsan.

690AD
- We bombard Suwon with trebs redlining 3 spears and capture it. We lost 2 LBs and an archer to redlined spears, but another elite archer gives us a leader. I am
going to rush the FP. I'm building a settler to fill empty land (AI uses too loose placement) and try to grab the saltpeter source. We'll have to fight a cultural
war for it.

IBT
- Aztecs capture another korean city.

700AD
- We advance to Pyongsong. Propably it is the last city that we'll be able to get before the Aztecs.

IBT
- Hittites capture Vitoria. Aztecs Capture Pusan.

710AD
- We capture Pyongsong

720AD
- We'll try to reach some more korean cities before the aztecs, but this will be hard. Now some of our LBs need to be healed.

IBT
- Aztecs raze another korean city. Hittites capture a spanish city.

730AD
- Waiting for LBs to heal.
- Notice that arabs learnt Monotheism, trade it for engineering. Gift them invention and guns so that they go for theology.
- WW is biting and i have to up the lux slider by a notch.

740AD
- Aztecs seem to have slowed down a bit. We advance to Namp'o.

IBT
- Aztecs take one more korean city.

750AD
- Our SOD moves to attack position.
- I settle Der near the saltpeter and rush the FP there. We should build a lib and a temple there to get the saltpeter in a cultural war.

I would not make peace with korea even for techs to eliminate the flip threat unless i'm 100% sure that the aztecs will finish them off. There are horses near Seoul,
but we are unlikely to capture it before the aztecs. I would still try to do it because if we are successfull we'll be able to build cavalry (we'll get salt next
turn unless the hittites have already built some culture in Pamplona). Chemistry is due in 3 turns and we'll propably be able to trade for Theology with Persia.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/GR8-750AD.SAV

 

[Heroes]

Rat, if you can finish 10 turns in 24 hours, I will wait for you. Otherwise, could I go before you? Thanks.

 

[ThERat]

Heroes, do you want to play right now? Else, I will play late tonight

 

[Northern Pike]

Good work, Obormot. That's already more cities than I expected to get from this war.

 

[Heroes]

Heroes, do you want to play right now? Else, I will play late tonight

OK, please play ahead. As long as you finish in 24 hours, it's good to me. Thanks!

 

[Heroes]

Just look at the save. Great progress, Obormot!
Several things to discuss. How about putting 1 EW per captured city (to quell resistor)? Keeping them empty have 2 drawbacks: luring other civs to attack (I'm quite afraid of this) and the resistors will be always there.
How about buiding worker instead settler from captured cities? Slaves don't need no upkeep, which is very good. While a foreign settler cannot do anything special. And for sake of reducing foreign citizens, building worker is also faster (10 shield per citizens vs. 30 shields per 2 citizens).
Why build Der on a floodplain, not the plain north to it? Well, maybe it's just limited by the settler's movement.
Why keep our 2nd army in Agade? IMHO, either let it guard Ur or push it into front. Two armies can protect 2 stacks of units: those attacked in the current turn and those not. I guess this way we can push forward quicker, and an army can sometimes do some attack (vs. the last redlined defender).
And let's make sure that at least 1 settler is prepared to catch the horse (our hope of cavalry ...).

 

[Heroes]

What's more interesting than see a runaway AI is seeing 2 runaway AIs!
Now Hittites control 35 cities, getting close to Celts' 39. Mursilis is in IA, but Brennus not yet. However, Celts have 21581 (+504) culture, quite terrifying ...
For now, let's just pray Hittites don't go for us after beating Spain! I would like to sell our last wine to them (netting near 500 gold) or buy a RoP (for about 100 gold), to make sure they keep peace with us.

 

[Obormot]

Several things to discuss. How about putting 1 EW per captured city (to quell resistor)?

Maybe you are right. I usually quell resistance after destroying a civ, but 1 EW is not a big deal.

About how about buiding worker instead settler from captured cities? Slaves don't need no upkeep, which is very good. While a foreign settler cannot do anything special. And for sake of reducing foreign citizens, building worker is also faster (10 shield per citizens vs. 30 shields per 2 citizens).

We need settlers to fill free land and i don't want to build settlers in the core. We can speed them up by forest chops.

Why keep our 2nd army in Agade? IMHO, either let it guard Ur or push it into front. Two armies can protect 2 stacks of units: those attacked in the current turn and those not. I guess this way we can push forward quicker, and an army can sometimes do some attack (vs. the last redlined defender).
And let's make sure that at least 1 settler is prepared to catch the horse (our hope of cavalry ...).

This sounds good.

 

[Greebley]

Good progress Obormot. I was hoping we had enough troops to grab some of Korea's cities. Agree on destroying Korea and keeping the cities.

I think your comment on needing more irrigation is correct. I only got around to a single square, but also felt we should do so.

I am worried about the deal you mentioned with Spain. I had renegotiate deals turned off, so our deal with Spain - we could cancel at any time. I am assuming you had it turned on and renegotiated the Spain deal the first IBT? If so, I am very worried about our rep. If Spain doesn't last the 20 turns our rep is in danger. This is one case where having renegotiate is really bad. I have taken to leaving renegotiate always off and remembering to renew them manually if they are not ideal for exactly this type of situation. You could have canceled at any time and declare war on Spain to grab Iron rather than forcing 20 more turns.

So leaving reneg off is better IF you can remember to renew. I have not perfected this (CAII is good for this when I use it), but continue to work on it.

If our rep is going to be ruined by Spains death, I would rather ruin it by taking Iron. Alternatively we might be able to protect an Iron city of Spain from the hittites by surrounding it and attacking it ourselves in 20 more (assuming we got an ROP to surround it).

Is our rep in danger with spain? Did we trade a resource with them?

 

[Obormot]

I don't remember it exactly, maybe i extended the deal with spain. But i think they will last long enough. They only lost 3 cities so far.

About renegotiate deals flag: it is always better to have it on, it only means that when 20 turns expire the other leader will contact you automaticaly and you can either cancel the deal or extend it.

 

[Greebley]

Having it off is more flexible though. Most of the best players keep it off because they remember to check (or have Civ Assist II or a similar program to remember). Having a deal extend without having to renegotiate is very powerful. The fact you had it on might potentially cost us an opportunity to capture some iron for example since we cannot declare war on Spain now. If it was off we could cancel it right before the war declaration since there is no 20 turns.

Agree that being reminded is nice, but it comes at a price. Having deals you can cancel at any time is a big benefit.

I hope you are right about lasting 20. It also occurred to me that if you renewed the lux for lux deal and Spain loses the lux, we may be "off the hook" as it were. We could also try to get Spain to declare on us. I would like one of their two irons if we can figure out a way to get it.

OTOH, we may not need the iron if we can get to Cavalry quick enough (until rails).

BTW, raising up Arabia to get them to research was a good idea. I should have thought of that myself. It has already netted us 1 tech.

 

[Zelda's Man]

Lurker's comment: Leaving the "Always Renegotiate Deals" off is a good idea, especially for luxury/resource for gpt deals. If you sell a lux/res to the AI for gpt, they only give you what extra gpt they have, not the full value. This may be good enough to make the deal anyway, but you want to renegotiate for more after 20 turns. In exactly 20 turns, they may not have extra gpt, so you don't want to reneg yet. Keep checking every turn until they will give you gpt for 100 (or some large lump sum) gold. Then you know they have extra so you can reneg for the full value of the lux/res for 20 more turns. Had you not waited, you could have missed out on a lot of money.

 

[ThERat]

save

Pre-Turn
quite some discussion going on, let's see what deals we have currently
Spain: ROP + trade for 1 lux each lasting for 10 turns
Vikings: lux deal for 10 turns
Aztecs: we give wines for some 5gpt
Korea has 6 cities left and we hopefully can grab more than 1 of them

IT Korea and Vikings sign versus Celts, what are they thinking?
Seoul still stands, but won't last that much longer I guess
and we get this message

1. 760AD
there is a nice spot to grab dyes next to Nampo, send our settler there first
bombardment reveals 3 spears in Nampo, lose elite LB but we manage to take the city + 24gold and 3 slaves
let's hope the Koreans can hold on to Seoul, though I doubt it a lot
increase science so we get chemistry in 1

IT well, too many cavs and Seoul is now Aztec
we get chemistry, go into big picture and Persia gives us Theology+ TM + all their 52g for it
then Pyongson deposes us with a EW

2. 770AD
we have 2 LB's next to it and they take the city back luckily
march on to Paegam hoping we might be able to get that town

IT Hittites declare on Vikings now

3. 780AD
found Kua to grab some land and dyes
trade Spain our WM for their TM and 17g

IT more wars as Spain and Ottomans ally against Arabia
and Ottoman then declare on Carthago
the Aztecs help us at Paegam by taking out a spear and then luring a LB to counterattack their Cav

4. 790AD
this is tight, Korea is down to 3 cities, we have to time the final trade with them right, since they give us 3 techs for peace
3 spears at Paegam that we redline
our 2 LB's and 1 archer manage to take the city,

IT now Hittite declare on Celts
Korea loses another town and almost their last one, they won't last another turn I guess

5. 800AD
we better make peace to get those techs before they are extinct

found Marad for another gap filling

IT good news as Aztecs destroy Korea

6. 810AD
time to quell the resistance in our new towns and prepare for the coming war against Spain
if only we could get out of that treaty and get to iron, but we have 4 more turns peace and ROP agreement

7. 820AD
resistance subsides slowly and we can actually use those towns for libraries

8. 830AD
found Kuara to expand more
sell Arabia chivalry for 257gold and we can speed up research on metal in 2 which Persia still does NOT have

IT Hittites start to pound Stockholm next to our borders and suddenly it is in Aztec hands

9. 840AD
shift more units north to fight Spain and acquire iron

IT bad news, Spain and Celts sign peace + Persia and Spain as well
Celts and Aztecs as well
we get metal and going into the big picture, trade with Persia for astronomy, we have to give additional 190gold
they would not accept gpt

10. 850AD
found Kutha in the east
our units are ready in the north to attack Spain
in the next IT, the deals are going to be up, we can then also trade wines etc.

as for research, we can either go for Mil Trad in 7 or physics in 8
Persia lacks Mil Trad and physics

 

[ThERat]

the madness of war

Unfortunately, Aztecs and Hittites are eating thr rest alive. Once we finish with Spain, we need to fight one of them allying the other party. We got to stop them from getting too big

 

[Obormot]

Can we buy horses from anybody now? I think the price is lower if we do it before learning MT. Or we can try to get the Seoul horses in a cultural war.