GR8 - Phoenix Rising
- Thread starter Greebley
- Start date
Meteor Punch, How is it going? Will you be able to play soon?
MeteorPunch
#WINNING
Just finished 
370 IT
a Spanish MDI shows up.
15 Hittite 3MCs are at our doorstep.
350 IT
3/3 archer defeat 5/5 enkidu fortified in a hill town with walls.
330
3 More Spanish MDIs. I think Spain is at war with someone else.
13 3MCs are stacked within striking distance of Lagash.
330 IT
All the 3MCs retreat. What are they up to?
310
290
I've changed my mind about the Enkidu army...he single-handedly slaughtered 17 units on the IT including the entire stack of 13 3MCs at Lagash. Kill ratio
I'm having a lot of trouble with the economy - we have tons of units.
270 IT
First MGL.
250
230
Erech founded.
2nd Enkidu army.
210
190
170
- The economy sucks and I have no clue how to manage this. We have so many units. I couldn't figure anything out and didn't want to get rid of units. So...
- 2 major unit stacks at the moment. Spain in the north - they shuffle in and out of view, sometimes attacking (strange). The other is a new Aztec stack of MDIs east of Sumer. I would consider shuffling the armies if you need to - even disbanding Erech (if needed).
370 IT
a Spanish MDI shows up.
15 Hittite 3MCs are at our doorstep.
350 IT
3/3 archer defeat 5/5 enkidu fortified in a hill town with walls.
330
3 More Spanish MDIs. I think Spain is at war with someone else.
13 3MCs are stacked within striking distance of Lagash.
330 IT
All the 3MCs retreat. What are they up to?
310
290
I've changed my mind about the Enkidu army...he single-handedly slaughtered 17 units on the IT including the entire stack of 13 3MCs at Lagash. Kill ratio
I'm having a lot of trouble with the economy - we have tons of units.
270 IT
First MGL.
250
230
Erech founded.
2nd Enkidu army.
210
190
170
- The economy sucks and I have no clue how to manage this. We have so many units. I couldn't figure anything out and didn't want to get rid of units. So...
- 2 major unit stacks at the moment. Spain in the north - they shuffle in and out of view, sometimes attacking (strange). The other is a new Aztec stack of MDIs east of Sumer. I would consider shuffling the armies if you need to - even disbanding Erech (if needed).
MeteorPunch
#WINNING
Heroes, I'll admit it's not the best place, but it will be decent in the future (it's on a river). I wanted to logon yesterday to use your dotmap, but I couldn't (site was down), so Erech ended up there.
Also, the flip is only 0.077% which will not flip - I guarantee. Once Obormots turns are over, we can continue a little offensive and raze that Aztec city.
Also, the flip is only 0.077% which will not flip - I guarantee. Once Obormots turns are over, we can continue a little offensive and raze that Aztec city.
MeteorPunch said:
I'm very curious to that. Why do you say 0.077% will not happen? Evidence or just guess?
I would love to raze the Aztecs town. But there is still a Viking town near Erech. When its border expands, we will be bigger trouble of flip. So we'd bette raze it too, or get it when signing peace (that's pretty possible, Viking is willing to give us Bodo and Alesund for peace now, but what's the town's name?!) ... But I feel pitiful that these tasks will delay our jihad vs. Spain for irons (they have 2). Maybe we can sign peace with Spain first and go for Aztec's iron (they have 1). But where is that iron? It would be easier to find 1out of 2 ...
Anyway, now we can settle a fishing town near the swamp, which should be relatively easy to defend. Erech is in a position too hard to reinforce (I'm pretty sure the lone road to Lagash will be pillaged), so maybe the army will be trapped there for a long time.
Northern Pike
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2003
- Messages
- 6,673
Our finances are very tight, but if we go to 10% research/10% luxury with some scientists assigned, and switch our cities to wealth as they complete their current builds (Ur and Kish can switch right now), we should be able to stay out of the red while researching Writing by 10 AD. The latter point is important if we're going to get as much tech value as possible out of the peace settlements.
pre-turn
- lower lux and hire specialists.
early
- Loose some enkidus to MDI, we are a bit short of defenders despite our huge support cost
- Everybody start Leo's
middle
- Isin is founded on the coast.
- We get an MGL, but cannot use him now.
late
- Discover Writing (70BC), start CB because by hiring some scientists it can be done in 4 turns, that would discovered
right in 10AD.
- Carthagians complete TGL, vikings complete Sun Tzu, Aztecs complete Leo's, Hittites complete KT.
- On the last IBT carthagians break the wall. In 10AD Kish is threatened by 11 spanish swords/MDI, Lagash is threatened by 9 units, viking berserks and aztec knights show up. It looks like Greebley guessed the date right A few more turns of AW and we would have lost.
I didn't do anything in the last turn. We have just discovered CB.
- Koreans Aztecs and Vikings are willing to pay 1-3 techs for peace depending on the cost.
- Spanish would pay us 1 cheap tech.
- Carthagians would accept peace, but don't want to give any techs.
- Hittites won't accept a peace treaty at all.
But propably after we sign peace with some AIs others would agree to give us more stuff because we will be fighting less enemies. I think we should start by taking Philo+CoL+Mysticism from Korea, aztecs or Scandinavia and then see if we can get Republic. We may also try to kill several more units this turn.
We have 32 enkidus, 21 cat, 10 archers and only 5 workers.
I think we should disband most enkidus now. Cats and archers can be of some use if we decide to go to war shortly because we don't have any iron or horses, but maybe we should disband some of thiose too. I built a curragh, but did not send it out because i was afraid of AI galleys.
I think we should set up a worker factory in Ur to improve tiles outside of the great wall and to join them to our cities later. There is still some place for settling, so i would build some settlers too. I don't think it makes sense to disband any towns in the near future.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/GR8_10AD.SAV
- lower lux and hire specialists.
early
- Loose some enkidus to MDI, we are a bit short of defenders despite our huge support cost
- Everybody start Leo's
middle
- Isin is founded on the coast.
- We get an MGL, but cannot use him now.
late
- Discover Writing (70BC), start CB because by hiring some scientists it can be done in 4 turns, that would discovered
right in 10AD.
- Carthagians complete TGL, vikings complete Sun Tzu, Aztecs complete Leo's, Hittites complete KT.
- On the last IBT carthagians break the wall. In 10AD Kish is threatened by 11 spanish swords/MDI, Lagash is threatened by 9 units, viking berserks and aztec knights show up. It looks like Greebley guessed the date right
A few more turns of AW and we would have lost.I didn't do anything in the last turn. We have just discovered CB.
- Koreans Aztecs and Vikings are willing to pay 1-3 techs for peace depending on the cost.
- Spanish would pay us 1 cheap tech.
- Carthagians would accept peace, but don't want to give any techs.
- Hittites won't accept a peace treaty at all.
But propably after we sign peace with some AIs others would agree to give us more stuff because we will be fighting less enemies. I think we should start by taking Philo+CoL+Mysticism from Korea, aztecs or Scandinavia and then see if we can get Republic. We may also try to kill several more units this turn.
We have 32 enkidus, 21 cat, 10 archers and only 5 workers.
I think we should disband most enkidus now. Cats and archers can be of some use if we decide to go to war shortly because we don't have any iron or horses, but maybe we should disband some of thiose too. I built a curragh, but did not send it out because i was afraid of AI galleys.
I think we should set up a worker factory in Ur to improve tiles outside of the great wall and to join them to our cities later. There is still some place for settling, so i would build some settlers too. I don't think it makes sense to disband any towns in the near future.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/GR8_10AD.SAV
Well we survived the first phase. Good work all.
I won't play until Saturday night Eastern US time so we will have time to discuss the situation. I encourage players to download the game and take a peek at the situation. If anyone is busy through Saturday, I can hold off playing.
Things we will want to determine:
Who to get techs from.
Who do we want to or have to stay at war with?
Do we want to found embassies and go for alliances?
One strategy I would like to discuss:
We could stay at war with (for example) the Aztecs and have an ally. Our towns will be well defended so the units will go elsewhere allowing us to take their cities.
I read an excellent analysis of what I am talking about by Sirian. Here is a link. I highly recommend the third page. I discovered the article recently - the concepts I have used for a while now, but I don't think I could ever explain it as well as Sirian.
Sirian's Game and Analysis of AI goals
I do have my own example: I started a war towards the end of one of my turns in an SG. It was a bit premature, the player after me was understandably miffed at my placing them into the war - they lost several units for no gain and ended the war as fast as they could. Afterward however, I went back to play the game myself and was able to take out half the enemy in the same time - my towns were never even attacked and the cities were relatively easy to take with almost no retaliation. The difference between the turns was that I was using the ideas Sirian presents to take out the enemy. The other player didn't know them and was baffled how I could do so well.
In this game we are small and far behind. I want to use all the strategic tricks and tactics that are not outright exploits to come back from near defeat. (didn't think I would time it quite so well...) Taking advantage of the points in above is a very good way to go about this.
So I guess the whole point to this is to make sure we are all on the same page strategically - discuss and think about strategies. There may be other strategies that are also applicable here. I want to win this.
[Edit: Another reason I bring this up in this game is that we are well suited to take advantage of it given our numbr of defenders.
I won't play until Saturday night Eastern US time so we will have time to discuss the situation. I encourage players to download the game and take a peek at the situation. If anyone is busy through Saturday, I can hold off playing.
Things we will want to determine:
Who to get techs from.
Who do we want to or have to stay at war with?
Do we want to found embassies and go for alliances?
One strategy I would like to discuss:
We could stay at war with (for example) the Aztecs and have an ally. Our towns will be well defended so the units will go elsewhere allowing us to take their cities.
I read an excellent analysis of what I am talking about by Sirian. Here is a link. I highly recommend the third page. I discovered the article recently - the concepts I have used for a while now, but I don't think I could ever explain it as well as Sirian.
Sirian's Game and Analysis of AI goals
I do have my own example: I started a war towards the end of one of my turns in an SG. It was a bit premature, the player after me was understandably miffed at my placing them into the war - they lost several units for no gain and ended the war as fast as they could. Afterward however, I went back to play the game myself and was able to take out half the enemy in the same time - my towns were never even attacked and the cities were relatively easy to take with almost no retaliation. The difference between the turns was that I was using the ideas Sirian presents to take out the enemy. The other player didn't know them and was baffled how I could do so well.
In this game we are small and far behind. I want to use all the strategic tricks and tactics that are not outright exploits to come back from near defeat. (didn't think I would time it quite so well...) Taking advantage of the points in above is a very good way to go about this.
So I guess the whole point to this is to make sure we are all on the same page strategically - discuss and think about strategies. There may be other strategies that are also applicable here. I want to win this.
[Edit: Another reason I bring this up in this game is that we are well suited to take advantage of it given our numbr of defenders.
Greebley said:
Thanks for pointing out Sirian's excellent analysis. However, what he said is that AI will "target the enemy city with the weakest 'top of stack' defender", not the number of defenders. So the fact that we have 32 EWs doesn't help by itself. If we get pike, and some AIs have only spear, then there will a big difference. For now, the only thing we can do is to put at least 1 elite EW in each city, which should be regarded as stronger than veteran spear.
It also makes sense to get iron and feudalism ASAP. Many civs don't have iron (Viking, Korea, Hittites), so they could be used as "meat shield" after we have pike.
The top thing seems to be getting iron. From whom? Now each of Aztec, Spain, and Carthage has 1 iron. Maybe Spain sold its 2nd iron to some one again. I still prefer attacking Spain, because nobody knows where is the single iron in Aztec, and the jungles in the way to Aztec are great trouble to our cats. To prevent flip of Erech, we can rush heroic epic there. Since there will be many turns before getting sword or mace to fill in a 3rd army, there are not many points to keep the leader.
That is an excelent analysis of AI behaviour, but i don't see how it can help us. Since our defenders are weakest we are going to be main targets for the AIs, and thus alliances won't help us.
Also i think that we should devote some time to peacefull buildup and i really want to go for Republic, which means that we'll have to wait some turns before going to war again.
As for the peace deals: i would take Philosophy, CoL and Mysticism in the first deal (it is possible) so that we have access to all AA techs and then see what we can get from other AIs.
Also i think that we should devote some time to peacefull buildup and i really want to go for Republic, which means that we'll have to wait some turns before going to war again.
As for the peace deals: i would take Philosophy, CoL and Mysticism in the first deal (it is possible) so that we have access to all AA techs and then see what we can get from other AIs.
ThERat
Deity
I agree with the comments from the rest, it won't be that easy to get the AI to exclusively attack other.
So, we have to decide and agree on several issues.
Which government are we aiming for? If it is republic, we indeed have to get rid of WW and make peace with everyone. Or we might want to fight until we actually acquired that tech and then make peace.
We should either take on Spain or Aztecs, I personally prefer the Spanish as well.
later on, steals might help us a lot, so communism seems to be a possible path. Or what do you all think?
So, we have to decide and agree on several issues.
Which government are we aiming for? If it is republic, we indeed have to get rid of WW and make peace with everyone. Or we might want to fight until we actually acquired that tech and then make peace.
We should either take on Spain or Aztecs, I personally prefer the Spanish as well.
later on, steals might help us a lot, so communism seems to be a possible path. Or what do you all think?
I vote for peace with everybody and republic. I think we should do self-research because of cheap libs/unis (and anyway this my preferred way of research). I would catch up in tech before starting any wars. I think we should be able to get into MA after peace deals or shortly after that. We'll also get our free tech. If we build libs everywhere and follow one branch of the tech tree we might get monopoly techs that would trade us to tech parity.
Number of defenders must count. I know I have stopped the AI attacking by putting more units into a city. Its the same trick as having a bait city, only using our allies cities instead of our own.
I think we are going to have to acquire republic vis reasearch. The cost of Govt techs is inflated to buy. I will be extremely suprised if we can get it out of the peace deals.
My idea is to declare peace with all civs except one in 10 AD and get an alliance against them. We then have 20 turns to research on republic and doing a land grab. When we get republic, we can declare peace and switch.
I think we are going to have to acquire republic vis reasearch. The cost of Govt techs is inflated to buy. I will be extremely suprised if we can get it out of the peace deals.
My idea is to declare peace with all civs except one in 10 AD and get an alliance against them. We then have 20 turns to research on republic and doing a land grab. When we get republic, we can declare peace and switch.
I hope to get Republic in a peace deal, but if we don't manage to do it them maybe you are right. Still there is a problem with all those units as our research rate will be too slow to get Republic soon. We'll have either to disband some of them which would make alliances less effective or do very slow research.
MeteorPunch
#WINNING
Short term: Get peace with everyone but Aztecs and raze that town of theirs. Also, spam settlers like mad and try to grab some land. Disbanding Enkudus could help this.
Long term: Military without doubt. Republic and trade for Luxes or Monarchy for the constant warring coming up. We need horses and Iron or saltpeter. Techs in concessions. Lots of alliances.Reading that strategy article about catching up from a tech hole. Luck.
I'm undecided about going all science or all gold.Also undecided about Monarchy or Republic. I don't even think we can do much damage offensively for quite awhile. archers vs. pikes and muskets? Nope.
Long term: Military without doubt. Republic and trade for Luxes or Monarchy for the constant warring coming up. We need horses and Iron or saltpeter. Techs in concessions. Lots of alliances.Reading that strategy article about catching up from a tech hole. Luck.
I'm undecided about going all science or all gold.Also undecided about Monarchy or Republic. I don't even think we can do much damage offensively for quite awhile. archers vs. pikes and muskets? Nope.
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