Grand Strategy Thread

[Niklas]

Yes, it would be. And we definitely don't want to shut off research, the GLib elevator threat is a minor one compared to not researching.

 

[dl123654]

This should be in the BABE thread but its on topic here too I guess.

We should start to ask BABE about trading Education to them, maybe give them a great deal on it. See what they say and go from there.

 

[General_W]

Ok – I know things are horribly off track thanks to the ongoing BABE invasion, but we need to keep an eye on the future if we want to stay in this game!

Couple big-picture topics I'd like to raise.

#1) Planning for Victory

I think we're getting near the end of the primary BABE invasion. Next turn we ought to be able to eliminate their remaining units from the primary stack on our mainland. That leaves 2 units in our marshy north, and 6 Mounted Warriors and Pike on Subcommittee Island (started with 7MWs, lost one).
Problematic, but should be totally manageable for us to clean up. We should have Astronomy from FREE here in the next few turns, allowing us to field Caravels and much more effectively monitor and block BABE's routes to our shores. BABE has dropped to Average compared to Saber, is almost certainly on the verge of (or currently is) experiencing level 1 war weariness. Am I missing anything here?
Hopefully BABE will agree to peace after we finish off the last of their units. If not, we should be able to get Military Tradition before the next major wave of BABE attackers can arrive – giving us an enormous advantage. (We can do this by reordering our research plan to get MiliTrad first, and Magnetism second… or better yet, get FREE to do Magnetism instead of their assigned Theory of Gravity [same cost] so that we can build Frigates and terrorize BABE at sea!
No matter what, now that we've survived their initial hammer with only modest damage, things are looking pretty good I think. Which brings us to…
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#2) Planning for a "Wonder"ful Post-Victory

With Saber let back into the game and GONG having restarted their research and made it clear they intended to continue snapping up wonders, we're in a bit of a pickle regarding Copernicus' Observatory. We don't have a prebuild started, and GONG and Saber are both going to be just a hop away from having Astronomy. Both teams are effective and efficient pre-builders… I don't know if it's even possible for us to beat them to this wonder anymore? Are we still planning on starting The Treasury on a Copernicus pre-build right after we finish Sistine? I can't remember, it seems like we decided that The Chamber would be a better spot to try to put all our Science Wonders… can we spare The Chamber from the war effort to get started on a pre-build?
Fortunately, our Sistine Chapel build seems likely to be safe… but I won't sleep well till it's done. It'd be a great wonder for GONG… I just hope they didn't realize that in time.
​

Anyway – just trying to get some big-picture conversation started so that we don't get overwhelmed by the tactical turn-to-turn battles and end up losing the game!
Thoughts?

 

[donsig]

Cope's is kind of up in the air. It might be best to try building it in The Treasury now instead of The Chamber. At least there we can switch back to a palace pre-build if someone else builds Cope's. We also might want that two turn settler factory in operation again as soon as the war is over so we can replace the cities lost during the war. Also, I'd rather not take The Chamber of military duty just yet. BABE has plenty of galleys left to transport units that they can build much faster now that they are in their golden age. (BTW, doesn't it just suck that losing a war constitutes your Golden Age!)

I think trying to get to military tradition is a good idea. I also think we should plan on not building h'watchas during this war. We should be able to carry on the war effort without wasting our golden age.

I'm not so sure BABE will accept peace so soon but we will see. In any event we should not accept peace until we re-secure our northern island.

EDIT: I think it's clear we want a MAAP III to get us to the modern age.

EDIT II: Questions: Does GONG have a real chance at a cultural victory? If they do then won't someone have to attack them to reduce their culture? Or would our spaceship launch before they reach 100k? Or does someone merely have to stay above 50% of GONG's culture?

 

[dl123654]

Personallly I would rather have Copernicus then Sistine. How many cathedrials are we going to build? Wouldn't it just be better to get navigation and trade for resources? Haven't opened the save since I lost my copy of civ3 after my move but even running the luxury slider a little and having Copernicus might be better then having the cathedirals and Sistine.

 

[Paul#42]

I'd also rather build Cope's than Sistines. But I lack multiplayer experience and I can't estimate how important happiness problems get in the later game...

 

[donsig]

I'd rather have both Cope's and Sistine. We're only about four turns from Sistine's so I would not waste a few hundred shields switching to Cope's now. I think The Treasury is doing 20spt now so we still have a chance at Cope's after Sistine. Let's not throw in the towel yet!

 

[General_W]

We're committed to Sistine in the Treasury… unless we want to throw away nearly 200 shields

Starting on Cops next makes sense, if we're going to use The Chamber as a settler pump to rebuild our lost cities?

 

[tomasjj]

Do we have a prebuild going for Copes?
If not, I cannot see us grabbing it.

 

[Paul#42]

We don't have a prebuild but we might start right now in The Chamber.
The Gulag might build some settlers. The Bayou on worker duty again.
Business as usual...

Some galleys, some workers.
Some slow horses where we got barracks.

If they planned another attack the would at least have "cleared" some more of our redlined forces...

I think the chance is good this thing is over.
Maybe they want to complain in the UN about our burned soil policy...

 

[donsig]

All right Paul, if we did that then what would The Treasury do after Sistine's is built? Another wonder pre-build, military?

Wait, do we have a temple in The Chamber? If we do then we could always switch to a cathedral there is someone beats us to Cope's.

 

[Niklas]

Well, considering Edu is just in, we can always bail out to a Uni if we fail a wonder prebuild. Of course, we're Sci so a Uni is only 100 shields, but still.

 

[General_W]

If we can get sufficient settlers elsewhere, I'd still like to see Copernicus and Newton in The Chamber.

If our prebuild there fails early, we can bail to a University as Niklas says. If it fails later, hopefully we can dump the shields directly into Newtons (assuming we can get Theory of Gravity shortly after we pass 100 shields accumulated in The Chamber)

But we really need settlers bad… so I'll defer to the experts on the best place to get them.

 

[Paul#42]

As I said - with the urgent need to build Newton's in TC I'd build 2-3 of those settlers (5 IIRC) in The Gulag (4-turn-sf) and maybe rush another couple in corrupt towns. I did not look at it yet but there are some corrupt food rich towns that could "effort" a pop drain...

We should send a couple of ships / a musket to the island...

Newton's should start in The Treasury right after Sistine's. Maybe we should insert a cash-short-rushed university? One turn (if we sac a horse -> 300g) or two turns (240g) extra that gain us quite some beakers...

 

[donsig]

Paul, have you given up on Copernicus already? No one's build it while I wasn't looking have they?

 

[General_W]

I think Paul is just suggesting that we may not be able to get Copernicus and Newton both in The Chamber.

IE – have The Chamber start on Copernicus this turn, and then have The Treasury start on a Newton pre-build right after Sistine.

That or he got confused on Cops/Newts!

Either way – I like that plan! It's way more important to actually get both wonders than it is to get them both in the same (least corrupt) town.

Only thing I'd change is maybe cram a temple into The Treasury before starting the Prebuild, so that we can be a little less dependant on luxuries if the War with BABE happens to continue.

 

[donsig]

Can we safely get our two most productive cities on wonder prebuilds? Don't we need one for the war effort?

 

[Paul#42]

Right, I mixed up Newton's and Cope's.

I'd finish Sistines in TT. Then maybe insert a quick uni there.
Start Cope's in TC right now.
Start Newton prebuild in TT in four turns.

Should TC build a quick uni first? It would give us ~21 bpt at 80% science, that's ~7% of our overall research. That's ~400 beakers difference over Cope's build span for 240g + two turns delay (or a vet warrior, 312g + one turn) ...

I don't want to build Newton in TC because we might run out of prebuilds. And TT is similar strong commercially.
And of course we could start on it way earlier!

I don't consider it a risk to start wonders in our two top towns. For the next ~10 turns we could still switch to units without much loss in urgency. And rushing units in smaller towns is almost as effective as rushing in big towns.
Both TT and TC lack barracks so I'd not build units there anyway for now.

The Admirality, The Silo and The Nursery might continue to build horses, maybe even short rushed.

 

[Niklas]

I think Paul's wonder plan looks good, that's what I'd do too.

The Admirality, The Silo and The Nursery might continue to build horses, maybe even short rushed.

The Admiralty can no longer short rush horses since it has grown to size 7 (thus losing access to the 20 shield Walls). I'm almost of a mind to starve it down one notch, but I suppose we'll have Astronomy soon enough (explorers are 20 shields) so maybe we should just wait for a while.

 

[Paul#42]

I think Paul's wonder plan looks good, that's what I'd do too.

Except for the suggested uni-rushes - I guess we have no money for that...

The Admiralty can no longer short rush horses since it has grown to size 7 (thus losing access to the 20 shield Walls). I'm almost of a mind to starve it down one notch, but I suppose we'll have Astronomy soon enough (explorers are 20 shields) so maybe we should just wait for a while.

Rather stay at size 7, it would take a worker join or some turns to get to 7 again plus we'd lose some unit support...
Astro indeed is in sight.