Grand Strategy Thread

[donsig]

I also think we should settle the island soon. We won't have a settler for 2 or 3 turns. I wonder if we can get a pikeman by then? An MDI will do for now though. I think we should take one more turn to scout the island before turning around.

 

[General_W]

I believe we can upgrade a warrior to a MedInf for 60 gold (according to Nethog's Unit Summary)

Imo, this would be totally worth it. We're back to weak compared to BABE, no big deal really - but it'd be interesting to see if a MDI upgrade would pull us back to average… and even if we lose the race to settle the island, I'd personally love to leave a unit there on the mountains just to keep an eye on things. A pike would be ideal as a watcher, but a MedInf would at least maintain some threat of offence toward any BABE settlement there.

 

[Niklas]

Unfortunately that's not true in C3C, the cost is increased to 90 gp (3 gp/shield difference).

 

[General_W]

Ah! Ouch.

Now that you say that, I remember that they changed it. I need to update my notes.
Well, now I'm not as sure. I'd still like to have a good unit out there… but 90's a lot to pay. We could send our 1 and only MedInf out there… we'll be building more (iirc) and we'd rather keep the Ancient Cavalry at home I'd think?

 

[donsig]

We have two vet MDI so sending one leaves one to protect our homeland.

 

[sirdanilot]

I'd say do it, as we are not currently under a direct threat of an invasion, we can take small risks like these.

 

[Paul#42]

I doubt that the have unloaded another galley there. We might have some time before they have a settler ready.
If they manage to beat us to the first town - should we squeeze our town in there? Is it an offensive act if cultural borders overlap?

Maybe we won't face them if they pop the hut, get barbs and the barbs annihilate them

I'd really send a pike rather with the settler. If we settle on the hill, they'll think twice if they attack it. An MDI has no use there, he would never strike first. That's a waste of money

We should get that pike easily till the settler is there. Vet pike from The Admirality first would be great but I think the library there is more important. So I'd build a reg pike somewhere else...

The galley might still circumnavigate that island and be back before the settler is ready to board it.

 

[Niklas]

I agree with Paul on all accounts.

 

[Paul#42]

I agree with Paul on all accounts.

That was good after the settler factory debacle

 

[Niklas]

Don't worry Paul, I wouldn't call it a debacle at all, we all work for the greater good of the Council and as such it's inevitable our opinions will differ. It's still highly possible that you were right there too, I still haven't had the chance to check up on it.

 

[zyxy]

I think BABE will not attack until the peace treaty is up, so I wouldn't worry too much about defense right now. But after that, an island is expensive to defend, especially with those mountains.

But yeah, let's send some settlers there. Who knows what will happen?

 

[zyxy]

It seems the whole wonder discussion died down a bit (I cannot even find the thread anymore). Anyway, now that we are about to sign a deal with FREE, it is perhaps time to restart this discussion.

The Treasury will need another 24 turns to finish SC at the current speed. FREE should be able to get to Theology long before that. If we concentrate some worker efforts here (irrigate a bg for The Gulag, mine a hill for The Treasury and join a worker to The Treasury) then we can shave off a few turns.

I think we can expect FREE to reach Astro in 30-ish turns from now. That means we need to start thinking about a prebuild for Cops about now. Some options:
- The Treasury. Advantage is that it's our best science towns, disadvantage is the timing. Cops would take about 25-30 turns to build here
- The Chamber. Currently our second best science town, with good production, but no hidden prebuild possible, and we're using it as a worker pump.
- The Silo. Third strongest science town, and it has the advantage that it is available for prebuilds in 3 turns. It will need 30-40 turns to build Cops.

All other towns are IMO either too low on production (The Bayou, The Igloo) or on science, or both.

 

[donsig]

As of turn 114 we had 293 shields in the bin with 13 spt coming in. At that rate we'll be well over the 400 shields for Cops by the time we get astronomy. We'll need about 20 turns to finish the Chapel (600 shields) and then say 15 to build Cops. (That's zyxy's 25-30 turns I think.) Still, this is the fasted place we can build Cops and it's our best science town so I vote we build Cops there.

Trouble is, we're depending on FREE to supply us the techs we need to build both these wonders.

 

[zyxy]

Cops needs 25-30 turns to build from scratch in The Treasury, so that would be about 50 turns from now...

 

[donsig]

OK, I only minored in math.

So, then we should rule out building Cops in The Treasury (unless we're willing to waste a whole bunch of shields or FREE significantly boosts its research time). With the GLib in play we just might get competition for Cops from GONG or BABE.

Just had a scary thought, prompted by Aigburth's revelation that FREE got monotheism on turn 109 and BABE got it a turn later. Could it be that BABE extorted (in game or outside it) monotheism from FREE? With no MAAP II signature is FREE free to give or trade techs to BABE?

Back to where to build Cops. The Chamber would need what, 40 turns from scratch? We'd have to add in the time spent building workers. So it would appear The Silo is the place we could actually build Cops fastest (assuming we started a prebuild after its temple is done. But with The Treasury using the palace as a pre-build we'd have to use another wonder as a pre-build.

I think the key is to build it where ever we can build it the fastest (of the 3 zyxy suggested) since we may have competition for it.

 

[sirdanilot]

Just had a scary thought, prompted by Aigburth's revelation that FREE got monotheism on turn 109 and BABE got it a turn later. Could it be that BABE extorted (in game or outside it) monotheism from FREE? With no MAAP II signature is FREE free to give or trade techs to BABE?

Hmm... that could be a reason why they are delaying things so much. But what would Free have to fear from a BABE attack? Nothing with their cheap enkidus. What would Free have to gain from BABE advancing in tech?

That last question is one I'll leave up to the consensus of the Council.

 

[zyxy]

I also think The Siloo is the best place for Cops. It is very hard to time a prebuild because we don't know when FREE will reach astro (and probably they don't know either).

We can still build Newton in The Treasury of course.

 

[donsig]

The Council is too quiet. Wake up everyone! Perhaps this would be a good thread to discuss the TRIANGLE. How would and attempt to destroy the Evil Great Library impact our grand strategy? We'd need a considerable armed force (both land and sea) which would be costly in both shields and gold (and hence beakers). How big an offensive force would we need? How large of a navy? How much time would it take us to build these? How fast would we get to military tradition (assuming we use cavalry to attack? Would knights do the trick? Could we do this secretly so as to surprise the owners of the EGLib? How does a BABE invasion of SABER fit into this? Is there any other way to neutralize the EGLib threat? What about ignoring it and pushing forward - what would be the consequences if GONG/BABE pull off the elevator trick and shoot into the industrial ages?

Well, I've got alot of questions. Anyone care to venture some answers?

 

[General_W]

… *pop* ….

Ah! What? Who's there?!

Oh…

Well, my take on it is that's it's still a bit early to get into details on the Tri-ANGLE, as the outcome of the BABE-Saber war will have such a big impact. Consider the range of possible outcomes…

1) BABE is able to land, wipe out Saber, and the game goes into 2v2 mode with BABE in control of two continents

2) BABE is able to land, and there's a long bloody war, effectively tying up both Civs for quite a while.

3) BABE is able to land, but Saber quickly massacres them.

4) BABE is unable to land, and instead invades The Council or FREE.​

Obviously there's a lot more options and variations on these possible outcomes. But each one of these four would affect a potential Tri-ANGLE deal in very dramatic ways.

Once we get a better sense of how things are going to go in the war, then we can start making plans for the EGLib. Until then, I think our best plan is the current one… Meet GONG, Get FREE & Us to education asap, and then trade GONG's contact. That'll take quite a while, and the world situation could easily change a fair amount by then. Even once we obsolete the EGLib, there's still quite a bit of time before we're likely to see an attempt at an Evil Great Library Elevator. (EGLE?)

So if you don't mind… it's still warm under the covers in my bed…

 

[peter grimes]

I don't think I quite understand the problem with the Great Library Elevator trick.

If I have the Great Library, it will be obsoleted once I know Education. If I meet two people who know Education, then the GL will grant me all of the techs that those two people know, including Education.

More than two people know Babe. Therefore once the Gong's GL is neutralized by Free and The Council knowing Education, we can shut off research if we are that scared of Babe acquiring the GL. Clearly, this is not the most desirable way of handling it, but it is safe.

But are we even certain that the GL is still effective once it is captured?...