Grand Strategy Thread

[donsig]

The plan to regain SCI is coming to fruition. SABER is currently working on the tech we need for aircraft carriers. The time has come to address the situation we will face after we have control of SCI.

Try to make peace with BABE as soon as we have SCI?
If yes then what are will willing to pay to secure that peace? Is there anything we want BABE to give us for peace? What do we do if BABE refuses to make peace?
If no then do we pursue an active military campaign? If so, what would the objectives of the campaign be?

My gut feeling is that we should try to make peace with BABE as soon as we secure SCI. The deal should include us getting military tradition (if they have it). In return we can give a lux or two or a tech. I think we can and should be generous to BABE after getting SCI so we can try recruiting both BABE and GONG into a coalition against FREE (or SABER?). The best way to avoid FREE and SABER teaming up in a research alliance is to cripple one of them. It will be tough so we'll need to form a world-wide coalition against the target.

Alternatives would be to try to invade the BABE homeland or try to capture the eleven tile island near by. (I am assuming SABER will take the eleven tiler close to their homeland.) Either would be made easier with carriers. Trouble is we don't have many highly productive coastal cities. The Admiralty is the best and close to 60spt (which would be three turn carriers). But it is diverting to Magellan's for a few turns right now. Next is the Aerie, currently doing 17spt (11 turns for a carrier). The comes The New Yard at 11spt (17 turns for a carrier).

Cost of naval units:

• Battleship: 200 shields
• Carrier: 180 shields
• Cruiser: 160 shields
• Destroyer: 120 shields
• Submarine: 100 shields
• Transport: 100 shields

If we are going to attack FREE or GONG we will need these units but we'll need time to assemble them. We may also need mobilization.

Our current plan is to retake SCI while simultaneously kicking off our golden age to try for the Internet (and SETI?). Once these wonders are built (by us or anyone else) and we've built Apollo (and labs if we miss the Internet) why not just mobilize and stay that way until the end? Is there any other infrastructure we'd need or want to build? IIRC we can build spaceship parts while mobilized.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I can think of several things we might want:

Nuke plants
Manufacturing plants
Offshore platforms

All of which boost shields - offshore platforms are things we should definitely consider in coastal towns that can build them.

 

[Paul#42]

Not to forget this commerce generating offshore thing...
And Mass Transit for our metropolisis.

That's why I had argued for mobilization now (or soon) because we can cancel it when BABE signs peace.

An attack on GONG would not rely on carriers and bombers, they are still open for conventional invasions. Ordinary tanks might prove quite a challenge to them...


For our home defense we'd also need quite some destroyers to maintain an EWS.
Magellan's would help making that cheaper by sparing 1-2 ships or saver by increasing the net's density.

Do we need another continent?
For our own sake I'd say no, the only reason would be to damage rivals.

I think we should not be too aggressive. Right now BABE is the agressor and we have any reason to take our island back. Beyond that, every other nation will watch closely who's being aggressive and new alliances might be formed.
I'd like to be not the one that's getting dogpiled upon.

Any action after taking back SCI should be carefully coordintated with our potential allies.

This is getting exciting when the "old world order" is not intact any more.
Just as in real life after the fall of the Russian empire...

 

[donsig]

The problem with mobilizing now is that we'd be mobilized during our golden age. Not a problem if we were just bulking up but since we're using the GA to try for the Internet we must wait.

 

[peter grimes]

I'm also of the opinion that the attack on Babe should be ended once SCI is retaken, unless and except if Saber wants help taking the 11-tiler near them - in which case I'd say we should limit our actions to naval warfare and interference. No bombarding the land tiles, just sinking Babe's navy.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of hunting down every last Babe naval vessel until they accept Peace. After we retake SCI, we should offer Babe Peace in the diplomatic screen (and demand MilTrad in exchange for one of our techs), but continue to attack their navy every turn until they accept.

As far as carriers and all that go, would it not be best to short rush them after our golden age? I thought that Magellan's was going to start our GA

 

[donsig]

I'm also of the opinion that the attack on Babe should be ended once SCI is retaken, unless and except if Saber wants help taking the 11-tiler near them - in which case I'd say we should limit our actions to naval warfare and interference. No bombarding the land tiles, just sinking Babe's navy.

We would be able to bomb one tile on that island (the rubber) with bombers based in The Nursery. Are you saying we shouldn't do that so we can minimize war weariness?

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of hunting down every last Babe naval vessel until they accept Peace. After we retake SCI, we should offer Babe Peace in the diplomatic screen (and demand MilTrad in exchange for one of our techs), but continue to attack their navy every turn until they accept.

I think we should do whatever we need to do to make peace with BABE and get military tradition - even if we have to compensate them in some way. Getting military tradition fast without researching it would allow us to get it to SABER in time to keep them from getting angry with us (but after we get a jump with our golden age).

As far as carriers and all that go, would it not be best to short rush them after our golden age? I thought that Magellan's was going to start our GA

Yes, Magellan's is supposed to trigger our golden age - unless we decide to do it sooner with a h'watcha. But Magellan's is due in three so I'm not sure we could get our uu to SCI before that. If we get beat to Magellan's we'll certainly use the uu ASAP.

 

[peter grimes]

Are you saying we shouldn't do that so we can minimize war weariness?

I wasn't thinking of war weariness - I was thinking more of the diplomatic angle: we don't need to get ground troops involved in a war that far from home. But bombers could assist Saber, and our superior navy should be of great help. Assuming, of course, that Saber wants to attack Babe in the first place!

I think we should do whatever we need to do to make peace with BABE and get military tradition

I agree completely.

 

[donsig]

We've reclaimed SCI and peace with BABE is at hand. We are on the verge of our Golden Age beginning a race for SETI and the Internet. With Magellan's we will be positioned to build the most powerful navy in the world. We already have the only air force.

So what do we do next?

BABE has asked if we intend to do anything with FREE. I assume this means are we planning to attack FREE? FREE is a tempting target since a four-way alliance is possible against them. Not only does that insure we aren't the target of a dog pile, it also prevents a SABER/FREE research alliance. Do we move in this direction or some other?

 

[peter grimes]

Is there a better target than Free?

Saber is our research partner, so there's no way we should encourage Babe in that direction.

Gong is in bed with Babe, so I doubt we'd be able to work that out. But it could be worth bringing up.

That leaves Free as the obvious choice. But how involved to we want to get? We can't afford to go all-out war for a while, right? Don't we need to build Apollo first before mobilizing?

 

[Paul#42]

We got navy and airforce, SABER and BABE got units on the ground.
Let these two devide the continent among them, have the trouble that go along with sharing one piece of land and we are content with what we got

If GONG's culture should call for an intervention we can still get SABER to do the job with us.

Now, that negotiations is a job for the General.

On the operational part, I'll keep building infrastructure, navy and airforce for now...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Don't forget fighters. I don't know how many we need, though.

 

[donsig]

Do we have a consensus about forming a coalition against FREE? If we do we'd best get moving on planning it and rounding up some allies.

 

[Paul#42]

Do we have a consensus about forming a coalition against FREE? If we do we'd best get moving on planning it and rounding up some allies.

Pro!

We provide the navy and the airforce and SABER and BABE do the dirty work.

General, Get the propaganda machine rolling!

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I think we will likely be asked to provide at least some ground troops. Everyone wants to be the one providing support and not actually getting troops killed.

 

[Paul#42]

At the start of our GA, we will have to schedule our military action.
I'd like to take a first view at the useful improvements for our core metropolises and try to derive when we will be able to build the necessary units for a Modern Times Warfare.
Some cities are ready to go almost right from the start,
some need some turns before they can contribute and
some will probably never get ready...

The Chamber (100 spt)
Nothing to build, just units!
air and land

The Admiralty (80spt)
Commercial Dock (160s = 2 turns, #202)
navy

The Gulag (25 -> 50spt?)
factory, plant, hospital (240, 160, 160 ~15 turns with rushing and forestry...)

The Treasury (125spt)
SETI-Program (650s missing, ~6 turns left - 6 turns more if we fail to get computers for free )
air and land

The Bayou (5spt)
hospital, university, commercial dock, court

The Igloo (42spt, with plant 60spt?)
cathedral, Plant (53+160s missing, 5 turns left)

The Silo (75spt)
Internet (900s missing, 12 turns left)

The Aerie (27spt)
hospital, factory, plant...

(to be continued...)

 

[donsig]

so they're nervous about being able to spare enough attackers without leaving their home totally vulnerable to BABE. (with both of us weak compared to FREE... remind me again how it makes sense to give FREE military tradition!?!?)

From what we saw of the FREE homeland it looks like they are blocking their coast with infantry. Once they get flight they will most likely build lots of fighters for air superiority missions. They may also have a navy for an early warning system. My bet is they are investing heavily in defense.

As for BABE, if we get GONG and BABE in the dogpile neither SABER nor us will have to worry much about BABE. Besides, we'll have the EWS and the ability to draft.

Now we can't expect GONG to do more than send their BABE toadies but even against three FREE will be hard pressed to defend themselves with or without Military Tradition. I still think the goodwill is worth it. For one thing we don't even know if FREE will be the first target. For another thing, we should wait until the bonus techs are know before committing to any wars. Finally, even FREE will need both aluminum and uranium to launch a space ship. Is it possible one or both of these will be confined to the eleven tile islands?

 

[Paul#42]

Facing the modern weapons, we need to change our defensive strategy.
We need to avoid any foreign transports within one turn's range of our coast. I'll define that area in a screenshot soon.

We need to monitor that area closely with our EWS (to be set up soon).

We also need to move our units into cities rather than blocking our coast. A vet Infantry on top should make at least expensive scouting necessary to detect our weaknesses.

Q:
Are there any unit carrying ships faster than transports (m: 6)?

Can Paratroopers start from ships or carriers and land in towns? What's their range?

Are Helicopters a threat? What's their range?

How can submarines be detected? Only by destroyers or by any ship trying to move on the same tile?

edit: I added a picture showing the minimum of area that we cannot tolerate foreign transports in. From outside this zone they can still attack even cities but not take the city and start moving around with units immediately.



This takes me to the thought: If SABER should backstab us this turn taking our south-western coast, we are a dead duck...
We are completely off-guard. I hope they won't make us pay...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't see SABER doing that - for one, it will pretty much guarantee that we throw back in with FREE, or even BABE, immediately, and we've pretty much shown that 1 civ can't research with 2. For another, it just won't work - I don't think they have the military strength to land in force and keep whatever they get - they'll just get sucked into a war that hurts both teams.

If they land, FREE wins the game.

 

[Paul#42]

If they land, FREE wins the game.

Ahem. If they should land with one Marine and 30 Sipahi now, we won't have a single town on our home continent next turn.

Our few units won't even be close enough to our core to retake a single core town... :suicide:

But I hope they're not aware - but it would be a coupe à la chamnix...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

that's true - but if SABER can project that sort of power, they will win the game anyway.

And I just don't believe they have enough money to upgrade 30 knights to sipahi AND have the transports necessary to get them here AND be doing 4 turn research. if they do, then it doesn't really matter - they will win the game anyway.

I do agree that we need to upgrade our defenses, and we need to figure out what would make us safe.