Grand Strategy Thread

[AutomatedTeller]

I was thinking about when and how we should kick off our GA. Our plan is to win by SS, by kicking it off in modern times.

We have a couple of ways of doing that:

Hwach'a killing of a unit.
Build a commercial wonder (UN, Magellans)
Build The Internet (which gives anyone a GA)

I know we want The Internet.
I think we want SETI if we can get it.

What I'm thinking is that we kick off our GA during our campaign to retake SCI with a Hwach'a, while we try to time a build to get us SETI if we get Computers. If not, we research computers and miniaturization to get SETI and The Internet, which we should be able to get unless FREE manages to beat us or SABER kicks off their GA with a Sipahi.

With the GA & 100% science, we'll be make some 1200-1400 bpt, which should get us most Modern time techs in 5-7 turns, which is enough for at least computers and miniaturization and probably a start on fission, if we don't get that for Free, and those two wonders should give us another great boost to science.

 

[General_W]

Don't forget that Chamnix is one the premier MMers that I know. I'll bet you $1 that Saber/Chamnix is planning a GA around the same time and has designs to use their GA to get their hands on the Internet (and maybe SETI) also.

We'll have to plan really, really well if we want to beat Chamnix.

 

[Paul#42]

Kuningas isn't too bad either...

But I think we have one of the most skilled diplomats as our foreign minister. Maybe diplomacy is a key to this game, too...

In such a complex and epic game, I think the best TEAM will have the best chance to win.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I think that's true, yes. Much of it will depend on pre-builds and how lucky we get with free techs, plus if we build some research labs - actually, that's not a bad idea - we should try to time some research lab pre-builds in our best research cities to finish when we get computers - we can switch them to bombers if we need, of course.

This is where our being commercial will help us - assuming that no one conquers us before modern times

 

[donsig]

Conquer us? We've been preparing for invasions for thousands of years - ever since we missed building the Great Lighthouse by two turns. In addition to team work and pre-builds there is always the luck factor. FREE getting an SGL changed the course of this game. The next SGL could do the same. With or without more SGLs we are on the verge of a new phase of the game - one where the prime focus is to deny victory to others. So, yes diplomacy will be even more of a key factor than it has been.

I'm not up on my modern times techs and wonders but we should definitely make a play to get the remaining science wonders. We lost two key wonder races (the lighthouse and theory of evolution) perhaps we can now turn the tide.

In order to prepare for the new wonder race we need to secure SCI ASAP and make real peace with BABE. If war happiness is their only reason for continuing the state of war between us then we can surely take steps to ensure peace brings them more happiness than continued war. BABE is not a threat to win this game so I see not reason to conquer them (unless they return to their slow playing ways).

We know military strikes will have to be made against FREE and SABER. The former doesn't have to be conquered - all we need do is capture or destroy their capitol city before they complete their space ship. I was thinking the latter would have to be conquered but it has been suggested that bombing their cities to destroy their culture buildings may slow them enough to eliminate their 100k threat.

That leaves SABER. If they will be our main competition for the science wonders perhaps we should attack them first - say once they have committed their forces against FREE or GONG? This is something we should consider though it has dangers, the biggest being a FREE/SABER alliance.

Another strategic key is the eleven tile islands. Depriving our opponents of these may give us a very large edge. This is actually an argument for continuing the war against BABE after retaking SCI since they will still possess an island even after SABER takes one. Capturing FREE's islands should be something we volunteer to undertake in any alliance against FREE.

Note that most items I've brought up require us to master the seas. We need some plans regarding carrier task forces.

 

[Niklas]

Sorry, I'm not completely up to date on the discussions, but... do we have a good estimate for when GONG will reach 100k? Will we be able to win before that, given the chance?

I like donsig's idea to target 11-tilers. If aluminium and/or uranium is island-locked, it could be the key to the whole space race.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I am not convinced that SS or 100K will win this game - the nightmare scenario for any team is that two opponents will land on opposite sides of an island, making it impossible to block.

Marines will cause all sorts of problems, as well. Imagine what will happen to us if FREE were to show up with two transports of marines and we didnt' see them before they attacked the chamber?

The wonders in modern times are UN (ha!), SETI (double science, 1000 shields, available with computers), Internet (research lab in all cities, with miniaturization), longevity (cities grow by 2 citizens when they grow - might be useful for us), genetics (1 happy face, not so useful) and manhatten project (everyone can build nuclear weapons)

Good improvements are: nuclear plant (replaces coal plant - doubles shield output, instead of increasing by 50% - available with nuclear power) and manufacturing plant (adds 50% to shield output, along with power plant and factory, available with robotics). Offshore platform is useful, as well, in a game like this. and, of course, research labs.

 

[Paul#42]

We know military strikes will have to be made against FREE and SABER. The former doesn't have to be conquered - all we need do is capture or destroy their capitol city before they complete their space ship. I was thinking the latter would have to be conquered but it has been suggested that bombing their cities to destroy their culture buildings may slow them enough to eliminate their 100k threat.

read: GONG.
I was already confused that you planned to invade our new ally...

That leaves SABER. If they will be our main competition for the science wonders perhaps we should attack them first - say once they have committed their forces against FREE or GONG? This is something we should consider though it has dangers, the biggest being a FREE/SABER alliance.

That's why we need to be SABER's best friend.

Another strategic key is the eleven tile islands. Depriving our opponents of these may give us a very large edge. This is actually an argument for continuing the war against BABE after retaking SCI since they will still possess an island even after SABER takes one.

Maybe we can take it
Did we ever state towards anybody but BABE that we consider each of these islands belonging to one civ?
Who said that SABER has a right to own that island NW of their homeland?
edit: However it will be tough to beat SABER to retaking it if we concetrate on ours. Chamnix is certainly planning similar to us...

Note that most items I've brought up require us to master the seas. We need some plans regarding carrier task forces.

I wonder if this calls for a shoot at Magellans. Currently moving our navy I have been really annoyed of those slow moving vessels. With faster ships, that 1 movement increase is not that big but it will give our ships the edge in any chase - we can either escape or we can track down any enemy ship trying to esacape and still bomb it.
Problem is: It can only be build in The Admirality.
But 400 shields is a mere 7 turns but also 7 frigates.
And navigation of course which is not covered by our tech plan...

Marines will cause all sorts of problems, as well. Imagine what will happen to us if FREE were to show up with two transports of marines and we didnt' see them before they attacked the chamber?

Yep, that's tough, one Marine and five cavs and we are dust.
I mean I don't want to open a save and find a lot of rubble where we used to have proud metropolises...

The wonders in modern times are UN (ha!), SETI (double science, 1000 shields, available with computers), Internet (research lab in all cities, with miniaturization), longevity (cities grow by 2 citizens when they grow - might be useful for us), genetics (1 happy face, not so useful) and manhatten project (everyone can build nuclear weapons)

Good improvements are: nuclear plant (replaces coal plant - doubles shield output, instead of increasing by 50% - available with nuclear power) and manufacturing plant (adds 50% to shield output, along with power plant and factory, available with robotics). Offshore platform is useful, as well, in a game like this. and, of course, research labs.

Good idea to list those (as well as in your unit thread!). It appears we sometimes lack fundamental information and mix up Ptw and C3C and got wrong sources and...

 

[donsig]

We know military strikes will have to be made against FREE and SABER.

Talk about Freudian slips...

SABER seems to me to be the biggest threat. Maybe that is only because they are the biggest question mark.

• We know FREE is trying to launch a spaceship. A nicely timed surgical strike removes their ship. (BTW, the same could be done to our ship.)
• We know GONG is trying for 100K. We know no one will reach 50% of their culture so we'll have to win before they get to 100K, perhaps by destroying some of their culture producing buildings to give us more time.
• We know BABE has given up and is no threat to win.
• What do we know about SABER? They are now on par with us technologically and will remain so until we enter the modern times. We know they have a golden age coming. We do not know how they intend to win.

If AT is correct and neither a spaceship nor 100k will win here that leaves only domination. Diplomatic is out (though GONG might get two votes ) I discount conquest because domination would surely be easier. What would trigger domination? Three of the five major land masses or more? We need to check on this.

Once we enter modern times we'll get computers soon. If not s a bonus then as the first researched. Computers give mechanized infantry. We can assume that SABER will have this unit when we do. FREE will be next to have it with GONG and BABE far behind. That makes these last two civs very vulnerable, especially BABE with it's one man show. This begs two questions:

1. Should we take advantage of BABE's and GONG's vulnerability while we have an advantage?
2. What should our response be if SABER invades BABE or GONG?

Does anyone know if we can build the military academy once we get military tradition? Armies could prove important in this game.

Back to AT's discussion about our golden age. I think we have to consider the beaker and shield boost we'd get. We're at a point now of wasting many shields because of over runs on unit production. Would our GA make that better or worse? We're at the point where some serious planning must be done about what we intend to build and where. We have to take into account targeted wonders as well as the military forces we need for whatever strategy we settle upon (be it just defending our home and 11-tiler or something more offensive minded).

As for Magellan's, not a bad idea. Assuming we are now our beakering SABER we should be able to squeeze in a four turn tech and still keep to our SCIAA schedule. I've already suggested espionage but navigation works, too. We could maybe sneak it in before military tradition. Would be a good idea to check and see if anyone else has it. I think an extra naval movement point is worth 7 frigates, especially since we won't be building frigates anyway once we have oil.

@Niklas: IIRC GONG is at 22K, making 500 per turn and accelerating by 10 per turn. I never was any good at calculus...

 

[Niklas]

We need a victorious army to be able to build the Military Academy, same as for Heroic Epic.

 

[Paul#42]

What would trigger domination? Three of the five major land masses or more? We need to check on this.

Three landmasses is roughly 60%. A landmass has ~375 tiles (our current land) The 11-tilers are basically ~25-tilers regarding domination (coastal tiles count).
400 x 5 = 2000 tiles to domination. 67% = 1334
3 x 375 = 1125, that's 209 to go, that's more than all 11-tilers combined.
So the dominator needs almost four continents, three plus islands is not enough.
Quite a tough task.

Once we enter modern times we'll get computers soon. If not s a bonus then as the first researched. Computers give mechanized infantry. We can assume that SABER will have this unit when we do. FREE will be next to have it with GONG and BABE far behind. That makes these last two civs very vulnerable, especially BABE with it's one man show. This begs two questions:

1. Should we take advantage of BABE's and GONG's vulnerability while we have an advantage?
2. What should our response be if SABER invades BABE or GONG?

We definetely should! Hoewever we should be aware that a third party (FREE) might help BABE or GONG to tech par just to give us some resistance...
Just as we would do

Does anyone know if we can build the military academy once we get military tradition? Armies could prove important in this game.

Should be possible. Never did that however but the manuals suggest that.
AT? edit: a x-post with Niklas.

Back to AT's discussion about our golden age. I think we have to consider the beaker and shield boost we'd get. We're at a point now of wasting many shields because of over runs on unit production. Would our GA make that better or worse? We're at the point where some serious planning must be done about what we intend to build and where. We have to take into account targeted wonders as well as the military forces we need for whatever strategy we settle upon (be it just defending our home and 11-tiler or something more offensive minded).

Yep. Almost every game I'm surprised by the GA and it's effect.
It would be nice to plan one for a change.
This is something, chamnix, Kuningas, Klarius, Wotan and all those big dogs defintely are way ahead of me...
But this turn-by-turn-game gives us an opportunity (and need) to plan more thoroughly!

As for Magellan's, not a bad idea. Assuming we are now our beakering SABER we should be able to squeeze in a four turn tech and still keep to our SCIAA schedule. I've already suggested espionage but navigation works, too. We could maybe sneak it in before military tradition. Would be a good idea to check and see if anyone else has it. I think an extra naval movement point is worth 7 frigates, especially since we won't be building frigates anyway once we have oil.

I'd bet we'd love to build other ships in The Admirality, then.
But the shields don't impress me too much. It's the beakers I balk at.
And we might lose that wonder race, too.

@Niklas: IIRC GONG is at 22K, making 500 per turn and accelerating by 10 per turn. I never was any good at calculus...

Well even if they sudenly jumped to 1,000cpt (which they won't) they would need 80 turns to achieve the limit. That's way into Modern Times.
They should not be a threat - unless for diplomatic purpose

 

[Niklas]

That calculus is an arithmetic series, so it'd be

100k < 22k + 500*x + 10*(x*(x-1)/2) = 22k + 495x + 5x^2

5x^2 + 495x - 78k > 0 ==>
x^2 + 99x - 15600 > 0 ==>
x > (-99 + sqrt(99^2 + 4*15600))/2 > 84 turns

 

[Paul#42]

That's what advanced mathmatics was good for

And if I got it right, a sudden increase to ++20cpt would mean 67 turns till 100k.
So we should be save for some time...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

that's a good analysis on domination. Maybe a SS could win this, but it will happen during war - I think.

If BABE were active in this game, there is no doubt in my mind that we would end up in a world war, because they have no way to win right now, except for militarily.

Something occurred to me - maybe we should dogpile FREE, then SABER - allied with BABE along the way. They are behind in tech, so need to make it a military victory.

SABER, long term, worries me more than GONG.

 

[Paul#42]

We should go for BABE first because they will be a common target for SABER and us, we should be technologically superior and we have all the moral right to hit them.

But we should be ready to make peace with BABE if we either face strong resistance or FREE is growing too strong or supporting BABE to keep us busy.

Maybe we get MilTrad from BABE for peace after taking back SCI and can research Navigation instead?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

we could do that - our treaty with SABER will require that we talk to them about that, I think.

Bear in mind, Magellan's kicks off our GA - which may be a good thing.

 

[donsig]

Quite alot to digest here. The game heats up and gets ever more interesting.

So, we have decided that GONG is at least 67 turns away from 100k, but probably actually more than 80 turns away. We haven't yet estimated our time to launch but the GONG threat seems low right now.

Domination would require occupying and holding three continents plus a portion of a fourth. On one hand it seems like we'd have plenty of time to see a domination run coming. On the other hand, this almost makes it easier to stand idly by as someone gobbles up a continent.

The best way to prevent a domination victory might be to bring this down to a three way race with two teams each having two continents and the balance of power civ having one. In such a scenario BABE would obviously be gone. I can't see them holding the balance of power. Would we be the balance of power or one of the top dogs? It seems natural for SABER and us to take out BABE. We will get to flight first and we both have an eleven tile island to reclaim from BABE. This would naturally lead to a SABER/Council alliance against either GONG or FREE. We are in a position now to plan this with SABER if we want to. The next questions are:

• Do we want to follow this natural course?
• Do we desire a different world order?
• Would we rather hold the balance of power?
• Which two teams would we like to see eliminated?
• Which two would we like to see survive?

I have some initial thoughts but no time to elaborate on them now. I'd also like to hear what other members of the Council have to say about the questions I've raised.

 

[peter grimes]

Fantastic discussion going on here

I'd like to hear why Donsig sees a mutual attack on the Babe homeland to be 'natural'. I actually think otherwise. I don't see Babe as much of a threat anymore - but Free is. Free has tremendous productive capacity, and Hoovers will really speed along their spaceship. They are powerful enough to be of real help to Babe or Gong if we were to attack one of them. Taking Free down a bit, if not eliminating them, will have to come before an attack on the Babe homeland.

I agree that taking the SCI comes first. But I don't think that an attack on Babe's homeland logically follows.

 

[Paul#42]

I agree with donsig that a mutual attack on BABE is natural:
We are both at war with them, they were the aggressors and we have the public opinion on our side

And we have a vast advance in tech over them which we don't have relative to FREE. We should use that momentum as long as it's valid.

And the third reason is that I still can't wait for the moment when I finally don't spend hours and hours waiting for the save to come...

A con in my eyes is the chance to turn BABE against FREE but I consider this quite hopeless. If I were BABE I would... make us believe I will do something against FREE but actually do nothing...


Peter, I don't think Hoovers will have so much impact on FREE's space ship. Main factor to a space ship victory is research. There's only a few parts to build, most of them quite cheap.
The big advantages of HOVVER for them imo are "cheaper" military and improvements and lower pollution risk.

 

[donsig]

Fantastic discussion going on here

I'd like to hear why Donsig sees a mutual attack on the Babe homeland to be 'natural'. I actually think otherwise. I don't see Babe as much of a threat anymore - but Free is.

The reasons Paul gave are the same I would give. I agree with you peter that BABE is not a threat. But they will also be little help against the real threats. And they (BABE) will soon be easy pickings. It could be that FREE is an easy target, too, right now. Something we should explore, which is why I'm trying to get us focused on the long term for a bit. For a (probably short time) we (and SABER) will have a distinct military advantage. We need to think about the end game before deciding how we will use this advantage (if at all). Taking on any easy target like BABE gives us some practice at real war and more importantly gives us the chance to get some elite units into battle in hope of generating a military leader so we can build an army - and then the military academy and more armies for the real wars to follow. (Thanks Niklas for pointing out that we need a victorious army before building the academy.)

It may make more sense to attack FREE as soon as we secure SCI. I do know that whichever target we choose we must coordinate with SABER. I do not think we would do well to sit back and play a supporting role while SABER invades someone. We should be active partners equally sharing in the war. I think we'd be at a distinct disadvantage if SABER invaded and earned the ability to create armies and we did not.

I'm not so sure we need to control another continent. I wonder though if allowing another team to occupy a second continent (while we stay on just one) eats away at our commercial and science wonder advantages? I guess now that I think of it our bpt will soon level off as our food surpluses disappear and we reach maximum population. In order to grow our research capacity we can build science wonders or occupy more territory in order to hire more geeks (or do both). This is one more argument in favor of a joint invasion of someone with SABER.