AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
We cannot research faster than SABER/FREE combined. There is just no way - I think we research faster than anyone else, but it's not twice as fast.
Grand Strategy Thread
- Thread starter General_W
- Start date
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
AutoTeller is exactly right. I'd be open to switching alliances back to FREE... but we've got to be allied tech-wise with one or the other.
It's a horrible decision... it'd be nice to slow Saber down... but if we switch to FREE - we'll have to catch them all the way to the Modern Era... and then we've effectively doubled the number of serious opponents for the Space Race that we have.
I dunno - my gut instinct is still to try to stick with Saber, lock them down in an iron-clad type peace agreement, and take our chances. We've been gearing up for a SS win for a very long time. I think Saber has pursued a more balanced strategy... which means even while cooperating with them, we should have a slight edge over them...
of course, I also assumed that they WERE in their golden age currently... once we drop out and they light theirs up... it could be a different story totally...
I think they definitely are in their GA now. After all we're still 3rd in MFG, despite being in our GA. The fact that we're so far ahead in research has other reasons - Copernicus and Newton not the least, and Commercial trait.
EDIT: Oh, and remember our own GNP was only 1469 when we emphasized gold, despite being in our GA. That's exactly what SABER is doing now, and likely they are the ones with ~1420. So when they emphasize research next turn we should see a much higher value for the second team - though not as high as ours, thanks to our wonders.
EDIT: Oh, and remember our own GNP was only 1469 when we emphasized gold, despite being in our GA. That's exactly what SABER is doing now, and likely they are the ones with ~1420. So when they emphasize research next turn we should see a much higher value for the second team - though not as high as ours, thanks to our wonders.
SABER is a much bigger military threat to us than FREE. For that reason it would make very much sense to try to be close friends. I don't think either SABER or FREE could beat us to a space ship. So I see no reason to switch back to (the backwards) FREE - all it would serve is to put yet another team on the finishing strip.
donsig
Low level intermediary
Ok, these are some good arguments for sticking with SABER.
Now we turn to the question of war. Do we try to fan the flames of war? Egg SABER on to continue fighting BABE? Try to get those two to make peace? Target GONG? FREE?
Here's the thing. If we see SABER as the biggest threat to win and BABE sees that now, too, does SABER see it? How do we see them winning? Spaceship? How do they see themselves winning? How do we stay allied with them, trade techs with them and still prevent them from winning?
Now we turn to the question of war. Do we try to fan the flames of war? Egg SABER on to continue fighting BABE? Try to get those two to make peace? Target GONG? FREE?
Here's the thing. If we see SABER as the biggest threat to win and BABE sees that now, too, does SABER see it? How do we see them winning? Spaceship? How do they see themselves winning? How do we stay allied with them, trade techs with them and still prevent them from winning?
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
two ways to beat them by SS:
1) Research the SS techs while they research non-SS techs
2) Betray them at some point by ganging a lot of teams on them
3) Build Manhatten and a set of ICBM's at a predetermined time and nuke their 3 biggest cities, assuming that doing so will take out apollo and their ability to complete it.
4) Build UN and see if we get 3 votes (hah!)
1) Research the SS techs while they research non-SS techs
2) Betray them at some point by ganging a lot of teams on them
3) Build Manhatten and a set of ICBM's at a predetermined time and nuke their 3 biggest cities, assuming that doing so will take out apollo and their ability to complete it.
4) Build UN and see if we get 3 votes (hah!)
donsig
Low level intermediary
Do we know that nuking the city with Apollo destroys Apollo? Even if it did, would it destroy any spaceship parts already made? Also, wouldn't they be able to rebuild Apollo somewhere else? We'd have to be really close to finishing our SS for this strategy to work.
Also, wouldn't SABER be able to use the same strategy on us?
No and no. Destroying Apollo does nothing. Destroying the capitol destroys any spaceship parts build though. But they could rebuild them immediately.
And yes, they could do the same to us.
donsig
Low level intermediary
Thanks Niklas. Though I'm pretty sure that if we captured the city that had Apollo in it (versus nuking the city) they couldn't build more spaceship parts until they rebuilt Apollo. Of course if Apollo is in the capitol then losing that city takes the spaceship and the ability to build spaceship parts. So, is it better to build Apollo outside the capitol or inside it? As we look at how to stop another team from launching a spaceship (SS) we need to remember that all strategies we foresee can also be used on us. Likewise any defense of our SS that we devise can be used by our opponents as well.
Every SS part needs at least one resource (aluminum, rubber or uranium) to build it and some need two. Without any one of these resources the SS cannot be completed. We do not have rubber on the mainland - our only source is SCI. We can see on our map that FREE has a domestic supply of rubber. We know from experience that SABER has at least two such sources. SABER also has uranium and they told us there was none on the islands. We have uranium near The Gulag and The Meeting Room. FREE has one uranium source (south of Cat Ballou - a very good movie IIRC).
Our capitol, our Apollo city and our resources (i.e., SCI) must all be protected if we are to make a successful launch. Wars begun to destroy an enemy SS or halt or delay its building can be expected. If these wars are mutual among all SS builders then the one who best protects their SS wins. If none are successful (for example if all are at least delayed) then GONG benefits as they are given more time to reach 100k. They are in an even better position if the Spaceship Wars seriously hamper everyone's ability to destroy GONG culture. Like the tech race (where two teams can out research a single team), two allied teams should be able to militarily defeat a single team.
Another thought is that anyone getting ahead in tech becomes the first target in the coming SS Wars. Here's another reason to remain on par technologically with SABER - at least for awhile.
Every SS part needs at least one resource (aluminum, rubber or uranium) to build it and some need two. Without any one of these resources the SS cannot be completed. We do not have rubber on the mainland - our only source is SCI. We can see on our map that FREE has a domestic supply of rubber. We know from experience that SABER has at least two such sources. SABER also has uranium and they told us there was none on the islands. We have uranium near The Gulag and The Meeting Room. FREE has one uranium source (south of Cat Ballou - a very good movie IIRC).
Our capitol, our Apollo city and our resources (i.e., SCI) must all be protected if we are to make a successful launch. Wars begun to destroy an enemy SS or halt or delay its building can be expected. If these wars are mutual among all SS builders then the one who best protects their SS wins. If none are successful (for example if all are at least delayed) then GONG benefits as they are given more time to reach 100k. They are in an even better position if the Spaceship Wars seriously hamper everyone's ability to destroy GONG culture. Like the tech race (where two teams can out research a single team), two allied teams should be able to militarily defeat a single team.
Another thought is that anyone getting ahead in tech becomes the first target in the coming SS Wars. Here's another reason to remain on par technologically with SABER - at least for awhile.
Yes, of course. Some less important city like The Igloo should build it to spread the risk.
Actually they had just one when we got it for a single turn from them, otherwise they would not have to insist on cancelling after one turn.
Nice, some extra commerce, iirc?
Actually that's a good reason to build Apollo in the Capital - one site less to protect...
Good point. Let's try to stay under the radar for a longer time. We did quite well doing so...
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
I thought that if they lost apollo, they had to rebuild it before they can build parts again? Am I wrong about that?
donsig
Low level intermediary
I think this is correct. Keep in mind that losing Apollo does not remove parts already built. Probably doesn't prevent one from continuing to build parts started before Apollo was lost. Not sure.
Losing the capitol city destroys the spaceship parts already completed.
donsig
Low level intermediary
FREE isn't quite as backwards as we assumed - they are now modern and have rocketry. They are still in their golden age, aren't they? It looks as though they are hunkering down for an invasion so (as our partner) I doubt they'd be much help to us if SABER attacked us. I keep thinking of Paul's feeling that we're in a run down between bases with SABER on one side and FREE on the other.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
should we ask FREE if they want to trade rocketry?
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
Holy shamoley - I didn't realize just how close the different continents ARE to each other. I think they are just 2 turns away via transport, 3, maybe 4 by galleon.
donsig
Low level intermediary
Regarding the possible FREE invasion of GONG:
Well, first off we need to ensure our EWS is in place. We should really be exploring the relative merits of a sea based EWS versus an air based EWS. Having time to react to an invasion could make all the difference here. If FREE is really going to attack GONG then GONG is in big trouble given what we've seen of their lands.
Second, I think we stay neutral for now and continue building our military strength. Let's see, BABE will want to help GONG - maybe even enough to forgive SABER and make peace. I'm not so sure what I'd do if I were SABER. Who does SABER see as the biggest threat to win? What are the odds that FREE and SABER already have a deal where FREE attacks GONG and SABER attacks us? FREE and SABER could already have a deal that doesn't include attacking us - FREE takes on GONG and SABER continues against BABE. Either way we'd be left researching against FREE and SABER. Looks like the ball is in SABER's court. SABER should be as happy as us if FREE really attacks GONG.
Third, even asking about a tech trade with FREE might give us some info. There are many arguments that the deal would benefit FREE more than us. What would it tell us if FREE declined the trade?
Fourth, we want GONG's culture building rate to slow but we really don't want FREE just wiping them out, do we? There's also now the spectre of two teams not wanting to play turns.
Well, first off we need to ensure our EWS is in place. We should really be exploring the relative merits of a sea based EWS versus an air based EWS. Having time to react to an invasion could make all the difference here. If FREE is really going to attack GONG then GONG is in big trouble given what we've seen of their lands.
Second, I think we stay neutral for now and continue building our military strength. Let's see, BABE will want to help GONG - maybe even enough to forgive SABER and make peace. I'm not so sure what I'd do if I were SABER. Who does SABER see as the biggest threat to win? What are the odds that FREE and SABER already have a deal where FREE attacks GONG and SABER attacks us? FREE and SABER could already have a deal that doesn't include attacking us - FREE takes on GONG and SABER continues against BABE. Either way we'd be left researching against FREE and SABER. Looks like the ball is in SABER's court. SABER should be as happy as us if FREE really attacks GONG.
Third, even asking about a tech trade with FREE might give us some info. There are many arguments that the deal would benefit FREE more than us. What would it tell us if FREE declined the trade?
Fourth, we want GONG's culture building rate to slow but we really don't want FREE just wiping them out, do we? There's also now the spectre of two teams not wanting to play turns.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
two teams not wanting to play turns? GONG wants out, too?
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
I would venture that, if we do decide to take on FREE, that our best bet is to wait until another set of transports comes to GONGland with reinforcements and sink it with air power/battleships. Just as a thought.
What is this based on? I didn't come across anything in the main forum about Gong not wanting to play their turn.
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