Great Admiral improvement

[hewkii9]

Would it be possible to introduce a Great Admiral improvement to the patch? While they are excellent combat units with their teleport and sacrifice-to-heal, they don't offer any peacetime uses. It is possible to code a unique sea improvement (JFD's Dano-Norway has one) and it would fix (what I sense at least) an inconsistency with all the other non-cultural GPs.

As far as yields go, it could possibly add on a similar scale to Citadels' , reflecting the naval tradition common in societies (and, outside of being Japan, I do not believe there is any other way to get on sea tiles)

 

[supracseduch]

I'd rather boost its exploration capabilities. Need bonus vision and movement so that an early Admiral can be used to discover all other civs in the game (since they can cross oceans immediately), thus providing greater trading opportunities, discovering more Natural Wonders, and pretty much guarantee WC leadership. A couple of times, I actually picked GA first using the Mayan ability. It was fun exploring the world immediately, but I know it was still too slow and I could have reaped more rewards from other GP types. GAs are underpowered indeed.

Actually, there's a policy that gives them movement and vision bonus but it comes too late and is too deep in the policy tree.

 

[Delekhan]

People always complain about the Great Admiral, but I think they're great.

That said, they do need at least +1 more movement. They're always falling behind everyone else.

And you can't really explore with them while they're a civilian unit. A barbarian galley can just move in and destroy them effortlessly, even if you're in the Industrial Era.

 

[supracseduch]

People always complain about the Great Admiral, but I think they're great.

That said, they do need at least +1 more movement. They're always falling behind everyone else.

And you can't really explore with them while they're a civilian unit. A barbarian galley can just move in and destroy them effortlessly, even if you're in the Industrial Era.

Which is where extra sight would really help. You can see enemies and then move such that it's impossible for them to catch you. In my case, since my Mayan GA had neither extra vision nor movement, I always made sure I ended my turn on an ocean tile. You should be extremely cautious when exploring the coast.

And though you may think they're great as they are right now, they're really only useful in times of conflict. And naval conflict does not occur as frequently as terrestrial conflict.

 

[hewkii9]

Playing as the Maya, Portugal, or Carthage, or finishing Liberty, are about the only scenarios that you can get a GA early enough to explore the world with. That's rare, and a smart player might often field a navy large enough [or close enough to owned territory] that they won't need the insta-heal; I am not sure if the AI is coded to make them behave in any specific way. This means they often spend long portions of the game cooped up in a city; there's the opportunity cost of missing out on any of the "upon expending GP" bonuses.

 

[Gazebo]

Playing as the Maya, Portugal, or Carthage, or finishing Liberty, are about the only scenarios that you can get a GA early enough to explore the world with. That's rare, and a smart player might often field a navy large enough [or close enough to owned territory] that they won't need the insta-heal; I am not sure if the AI is coded to make them behave in any specific way. This means they often spend long portions of the game cooped up in a city; there's the opportunity cost of missing out on any of the "upon expending GP" bonuses.

The AI knows how to use them. They'll use them like great generals for navies and, if needed, heal with them (Ilteroi and I have taught them those two things, anyways). I seem 'em use both frequently (though the heal is pretty situational).



G

 

[Funak]

The AI knows how to use them. They'll use them like great generals for navies and, if needed, heal with them (Ilteroi and I have taught them those two things, anyways). I seem 'em use both frequently (though the heal is pretty situational).

I'm not one hundred percent sure I would add a tile-improvement to them, there are a lot of those already, and adding resources to water-tiles tends to be weird as you can't build normal improvements on them. I mean a Citadel provides yields, sure, but the yields are pretty meh, and they are pretty much on the same level as normal improvements when it comes to yields (which is fine, that isn't their purpose).

Two ideas I can think of for a peaceful admiral usage is either letting them construct some unique building that boosts naval production. Kinda like the Academies from Civ4.
Or letting them control tiles outside your border, you could use them on a far off luxury gain control of it until someone builds a city that grabs the tile, I guess. No clue how useful that would actually be, but there sometimes are rogue luxuries way outside buildable range.

 

[Tubbilicious]

I've seen a mod where you can construct what is essentially an aquatic fort. It provides territory in much the same way a great general does.

What I would find very cool is the following: The aquatic fortress can be built on any unclaimed coastal tile, claims unclaimed tiles 1 hex around it, and allows you to deploy ships to it. By deploy I mean the following: The ship I have built/purchased in city X actually spawns at the aquatic fortress if I so choose.

This would allow a nation to have a global naval presence, and seriously buffs the great admirals (and consequently any relevant policy). No idea if it can be done however, or even if others would like it. You have to remember I enjoy playing as naval powers on very large maps!

 

[Strigvir]

The healing power is useless for AI, because naval battles are built around focusing ships.
Can't heal the destroyed ship.

 

[WileyNg]

Can't think of any historical analogue of anything that the Great Admiral can "build". They usually just stay on ships and give commands. Coastal Battery is a possible option, but it has very little to do with admirals.

The only buff I can think of is to grant "scurvy-resistance" to the stacked unit. This can compensates for its lost ability to build GI.

So if JFD you can read this, please feel free to advise.

 

[Gazebo]

We could just make the Great Admiral give off a radius of healing around it so that owned ships can heal outside of friendly territory.

G

 

[JFD]

Can't think of any historical analogue of anything that the Great Admiral can "build". They usually just stay on ships and give commands. Coastal Battery is a possible option, but it has very little to do with admirals.

The only buff I can think of is to grant "scurvy-resistance" to the stacked unit. This can compensates for its lost ability to build GI.

So if JFD you can read this, please feel free to advise.

Great Admirals in ExCE only gain Scurvy Immunity with the Navigation School policy - though this is usually without CBP active. I can probably give the policy the added functionality of applying to units stacked with a GA, but I otherwise don't have any particular insight into how to improve them.

 

[TeeInKay]

LordG, that would make them very very valuable to me.

 

[JFD]

LordG, that would make them very very valuable to me.

Gazebo is no mere Lord, he is Pope of Modding, to whom Whoward gave the Keys of Modding and the powers of "DLL-binding and AI-loosing," naming him as the "rock" upon which future civ V modding would be built. He must be addressed as His Modliness.

Passive healing could be good; though I still wish for something for which Great Admirals can be expended.

 

[TeeInKay]

G

Spoiler :

Lord of the Community Patch Project & Pope of Modding

 

[Elhoim]

We could just make the Great Admiral give off a radius of healing around it so that owned ships can heal outside of friendly territory

That's a very good idea.

 

[Delekhan]

That's a very good idea.

Interesting idea indeed.

 

[Funak]

Interesting idea indeed.

That's a very good idea.

Passive healing could be good; though I still wish for something for which Great Admirals can be expended.

Have to back JFK up here, the idea of this thread was the lack of a peacetime use, passive healing is neither peacetime nor a use. I honestly don't think the admiral needs more wartime use, it is already way superior to the GG for that. I don't even remember how many times I've wished I could sacrifice my GG to heal my troops.
No I think this was about a peace-time use or a great tile improvement (if only for consistency) and passive healing really doesn't help that at all.

 

[hewkii9]

Exactly, Funak. Naval warfare is still a bit of a gimme for the human player and I don't think the actual act of it needs a buff. A GA improvement would be more like a post-war reward for when you no longer need the unit.

There's a long history of sea forts, be it ones built in a harbour like Suomenlinna or Muscat's Fort al-Jabali, or wholly constructed ones like Britain's Maunsell towers. Admittedly, most sea forts are star forts; but then again that's the Citadel's graphic and nobody's complained about historical inaccuracy there

 

[supracseduch]

Some ideas for making them useful in times of peace:

Gunboat Diplomat: When inside a CS territory, can be expended to demand tribute from them without reducing influence on them.
Gunboat Diplomat (variant): When inside a CS territory, passively reduce their base reluctance to tribute demands by 50%.
Navigator Admiral: Increase sight range by 2, and movement by 1. (very useful throughout the game, both for exploration and military support). Can also see invisible units (submarines)
Pioneer: Can settle on coastal tiles. Remove healing ability.

But of course, we can do the good old tile improvement approach. An exact analogue to the GG's Citadel would be pretty boring though.