Great Library and rage quitting

[LyricalAssassin]

I can see the science boost being useful to Babylon, but I usually rely on the GS you get at writing to create an academy before focusing on my infrastructure. It provides more than double what the GL would provide, and a worker is worth almost twenty turns on an average start (standard speed). The GL would just take too much focus away from more important things like expansion.

 

[beetle]

Yes, absolutely use the GS for an academy, and it is better than GL. The point is, that as Babylon, you can have both! As Novalia pointed out, you are researching writing ASAP anyway.

 

[ixias]

I usually play in Emperor and have found that, if I have a halfway decent start and beeline it, I can get the Great Library on a regular basis. I really only try for it as Babylon, Korea, or France (for theming purposes). I find that, even with the above Civs, it's better to forgo the GL and focus on improving my infrastructure. It has better long-term effects and it's stuff you'll need anyway.

 

[danaphanous]

I used to be hooked on Stonehenge and GL too. I discovered, as others have said, that it's awesome, but I don't try for it typically unless an ancient ruins saves me a tech getting there or I have an amazing production start. It's gone so quick and the gold compensation is NOT worth losing it. It's better to get a trade route right away and start racking up the gold and science.

Stonehenge I used to love because it guaranteed a quick religion. It's only really necessary if you want a religion though if you have no other passive sources of faith. If I'm forced to hard build 2 shrines and a temple to get my religion it's better to grab stonehenge bc of the wonder status and lack of maintenance. If you: #1 ally a religious CS that's your religion right there. If you get a terrain type like desert, tundra, near gold/silver, near wines/incense, near copper/salt, the right pantheon is actually better than going stonehenge. THere will be plenty of passive faith options later. Wait and build something more useful and pick up Borabadur later.

I used to be hooked on the Pyramids because I loved having excess workers to quick-start my cities. Guess what? Pyramids is a slow start. Search for barbarian-stolen workers or go liberty and you'll get workers much quicker. I realized this on a recent game where I went my traditional Pyramids route and ended up with 4 workers and sucking gold. Didn't have enough cities to use them.

Now the only wonder I consider "good" in the ancient times is the Temple of Artemis. That extra 10% growth in every city the entire game is amazing. The next closest that I like is Hanging Gardens as 6 extra food allows you to either grow amazingly fast or sacrifice tiles for some early specialists. Of course the Oracle is good too, but all the AI know it.

 

[hnut]

I play MP with friends on emp difficulty, so naturally i tested 100+ games just to see what it takes to get GL on emperor on quick setting. AI will make it on turn 24+, rarely it will happen before 24 but thats very rare. Build order : scout, scout, then either granary or worker, if you have forests to chop than a worker will help, if no forests than worker is not needed. Tech, obviously pottery>writing, now when you start on GL you want to get calendar, but you might want to go mining (for forests) or animal husbrandy for a chance at horses before calendar. Also open tradition and get Aristocracy, if you get lucky with ruins it will matter, if you meet religious CS you can get the panthenon bonus for wonders. Usually sheep is the best resource for building GL, if you start with 2 sheep and on a hill its almost as good as yours.


Its not the tech it gives, or the beakers, its the ability to build NC on turn 30 something, and a GS around t70, however i havent tested getting anything other than Philosophy.

 

[Chum]

Turn 25... He's talking about mp/quick speed.

Can't do it on quick either. 8 turns to research pottery, writing is 10 or so. With good production in your cap you've got 12-15 turns minimum.

Maaaaaybe if you get lucky and pulling writing from a ruin right as you finish pottery. But that's absolute best case scenario. Certainly nothing happening in regards to workers chopping forests that early, unless you're Spain and buy a worker on turn 1, but that also assumes that you get another ruin for Mining.

 

[Novalia]

Can't do it on quick either. 8 turns to research pottery, writing is 10 or so. With good production in your cap you've got 12-15 turns

i dont play quick speed but i doubt writing costs 18 turns total after you've added 2-4 more citizens to your capital along the way.. i'll test it later for fun.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I won a CV and SV on my first two attempts on King difficulty, standard speed, and built GL both times. I decided to try out quick speed for the first time, and also tried the Greeks for the first time, thinking I might go diplo. I got to ~turn 35, 2 turns away from building GL, and another civ built it.

My question is - if going for any victory other than domination, does losing the GL race result in restarts for anyone else? I know I don't play on IMM/Deity like many on here, but to me, not building GL seems like an automatic quit/restart.

Also, does the fact that I chose quick speed for the first time factor into how much quicker AI builds wonders on King?

Thanks for listening

You'll get more science over time from an early investment in trade routes, especially if you don't have a start conducive to wonder construction. And The Great Library (TGL) is always hit or miss, because the decision to enhance your marble can be the decision that makes you one turn too late.

Frankly, in Diety / MP, I find TGL to be contigent on finding the right free techs in ruins before I get out my first building or second scout (depending on what my start yields.)

 

[Novalia]

re: the impossibility of turn 25 GL
immortal difficulty.. quick..
i didnt have best best starting location so i moved to the west hill..

Spoiler :

this is where i was at on turn 24.. as you can see i am one turn from finishing GL..

Spoiler :

then i get sniped..

Spoiler :

i built a scout then started a worker.. bought another scout after finding gold ruin..
turn 4 culture ruin..
turn 7 i had a pop increase and pottery finished.. switched from worker build to granary..
found pop and animal husbandry ruins..
turn 14 writing finished.. turn 15 worker finished.. started GL..
worked the wheat for a turn until 2-turn mining finished.. bought a forest tile next to wheat and chopped it..
couldnt work the gems tile because there was a barb camp directly where warrior now stands.. couldnt move freely before that because 2 barbs floated around previously or i would've chopped another forest.. as it was i was protecting the academy.

the deciding factor to losing out was that on turn 9 i selected the free monument from tradition instead of -15% wonders.. i didnt get the -15% policy until turn 16.. 2 turns into building GL..

 

[NukeAJS]

I play on immortal/emperor and I don't even bother for the GL unless I see two cattle, forests, start on a hill, and have marble+hills.

And then, I often get beat to it even though I steal workers from CSs, chop forests, get cattle pastures/mines up, connect marble, adopt aristocracy etc.

I never rage quite when I miss it though. I try for the GL fully expecting NOT to get it. If I do get it, great, but if not -- well I knew it was a gamble anyways. Plus, early fail gold (or just gold in general) is quite valuable. Yeah, I'd rather take the GL instead, but getting showered with 100 gold or so after failing is a nice consolation price that early in the game (like a free goody hut).

 

[troublmaker]

The only thing that will make me rage quit is when the Huns have 40 units at my one city that has three defenders in turn 30

 

[MadHaxxor]

Gl is/was and always will be a wonder. You get a free 90 science tech. Woohoo.

 

[TyBoy]

Since the BNW tech tree changes I don't see much point to GL anyway (which is good since it's ungettable on deity). With the G&K tree and immortal difficulty I considered it worthwhile to use it to get civil service, but if the best tech you can get for it is second tier classical then even with minimal risk of failure I wouldn't bother.

 

[darkpigraph]

Well these days the GL is more about the two writing slots for CV than for the slingshot to philosophy, though this helps as well. I must confess i'm still addicted to this wonder although i'll know when not to bother trying for it. And why i don't play above emperor.

 

[Montezuma II]

I used to rely on GL and leave if I didn't get it. I got over it by trying to come up with a strategy that doesn't revolve around writing in your first 3-4 techs.

 

[Redaxe]

Yes as what others have mentioned you need to have a good luck start. Be opportunistic about it, if you play every game with the intention of getting GL you'll probably end up frustrated.

This is one wonder where I wish they would let your production points carry over into a normal library. That way if you miss it by 1 turn you get something better then a useless bit of gold.
Or make it unlocked in the liberty tree.
Liberty needs science not pyramids as it already gives you a free worker & a boost to worker speed.

 

[Redaxe]

Or the other solution would be to move it to Literacy tech (i.e drama & poetry). After all the great library was built in 300 bc not 3000bc

 

[CraziFuzzy]

sounds crazy, but I just don't focus on wonders at all in the early game. Especially so at the higher difficulty levels. The base infrastructure is going to give you so much more end-game capabilities than those early wonders would, that the costs are just so high - nevermind the risk of losing all those hammers a turn before completion. If I'm going to rage quit over not getting a wonder, it wouldn't be over the lack of the wonder, it would be over the lack of all those hammers...

That instant loss is actually pretty poor game design, in my opinion. The gold hardly compensates for anything. If anything, they should have a basic building that gets granted if the associated wonder is lost. So you spent hundred of years trying to build the worlds greatest library - then someone else builds one a little bit better than you were going to... You should at least still have a pretty nice standard library for your efforts...

Pyramids degrade to a shrine, Great Lighthouse to a Lighthouse, etc...

 

[Chum]

You'll get more science over time from an early investment in trade routes

Eh, this is hit and miss on King. You surpass the AI quite easily on those levels, as they only start with 1 free tech (I think...but it's minimal if it's not one). You need to be within 10-15 tiles of a Civ city, which is not ideal, or have a port city and a neighboring AI port city. In any case, it's kinda hard on King for that to work out. Good thing the GL is entirely possible to obtain on King pretty easily.

 

[civ54lyfe]

i understand why a Imm/Deity player doesn't bother with ancient and some classical Wonders. but doing this must gimp the late-game Aesthetics/Freedom policies that put bonuses on Wonders. another reason why Deity sounds no fun at all