Great Library opening, worth it?

[khdou]

What's the general consensus on the great library and if it's worth risking to rush on Immortal/Deity? The cost is roughly equivalent to a library+worker, which I'm guessing is the next best alternative. I usually play with using liberty for the settler and building a worker and library so I can get started on my NC earlier and improve tiles while I'm at it.

So with a great library, you do save the research time on philosophy and unlock more techs+GS specialist, but with a worker you can improve your tiles faster and start and finish NC earlier

 

[binhthuy71]

I don't even consider the GL at those levels. The AI loves the GL and at Emperor and above the AI starts with Pottery, Animal Husbandry, and Mining, leaving it only one tech away from the GL. Moreover, at those same levels the AI starts with a Worker and Two Warriors giving it the ability to go exploring and to garrison its capitol as well as being able to substantially improve tiles from turn 1.

Me? I usually research Mining first and Archery second. I'm close to taking Citizenship at that point and my Worker is able to chop forests right away. Archery has become a must for building a few defensive units to fend off Barbs and to effectively respond to the certain DoW from a neighbor.

 

[notadummy]

yeah, I'm gonna have to agree that the GL is not a viable option at higher levels. One thing I do want to point out though. If you see that a bunch of civs are fighting early on, your chances of getting the GL is much higher. I've gotten the GL on turn 80 on immortal because all the ai were too busy fighting each other.

 

[Tabarnak]

You need a solid shaped position for that wonder at immortal like starting on a hill with wheat and deer ressources around(granary beeline) if you want that on your first shot. At deity it's a matter of luck. If you don't mind rerolling, you gonna hit that wonder sooner or later.

 

[joncnunn]

At Immortal level, you'd be rerolling a lot if you don't want the cash from being beat out.

That said you'd have somewhat better shot (on small or smaller) than large. (Default # of AIs assumed)

 

[binhthuy71]

At Immortal level, you'd be rerolling a lot if you don't want the cash from being beat out.

That said you'd have somewhat better shot (on small or smaller) than large. (Default # of AIs assumed)

You raised a nice point. Before Currency, if one of my cities doesn't have anything important to build then I start it producing a Wonder. I try to choose one that the AI likes too. AI beats me to the Wonder and my gold pile grows.

 

[Buccaneer]

I can't remember the last time I built the GL on Immortal/Emperor, or even tried, and there are better things to work towards.

 

[Tiber4321]

As a whole, I don't think the GL is worth it, except at lower levels, when its so easy to build. At Emperor or higher, I almost never build it. The only exception being when I want Civil Service in a hurry, because I think I can hard build Chi Itza before I hard build HS. So, it may have limited uses for targeting a specific early game techs, but at higher levels I almost never try to build it. IMO, this wonder has very little pay off at high levels, and is not worth the effort. If you are trying for an early wonder at Immortal/Deity, go for Stonehenge, Oracle, HG. Pyramids is another wonder with very little value other than a GE slot.

 

[prince_caspian]

As other pointed out, almost never worth it on immortal/deity and you won't really get it even if you tried anyway. But on Emperor it's worth giving it a shot only for Korea, as it's two RAs + 1 free tech. 2 RAs can easily net you another tech if you simply queued techs in the tree.

 

[Muskie]

I don't have a set opening, unless generally going Liberty and generally building a Monument counts as a set opening. I've also become more defensive and conservative at high levels. I like archery for first tech for most Civs. One bowman can defend and even hunt barbarians a lot better than scouts and warriors.

This means I then get to Optics and/or Philosophy later than I used to when I would beeline those techs based on my Civ and the size of the island I was on. I rarely build the Great Library or even try to. I like using my Great Engineers to instant build wonders, so Oracle is an early favourite. I often try for Stone Henge as the AI doesn't seem to go for it and it is cheap, cheaper than Oracle. I sometimes build the Colossus for money and because again it is unpopular.

Later wonders are more better, so I'd rather have a solid city or 3 than one key wonder.

Some Civs require a different opening, for instance if I was Rome I'd probably beeline Iron Working and then go hunting for Iron to mine. Maybe Korea would be worth beelining up Writing from the get go, but I prefer Babylon and go Archery first.

 

[binhthuy71]

As other pointed out, almost never worth it on immortal/deity and you won't really get it even if you tried anyway. But on Emperor it's worth giving it a shot only for Korea, as it's two RAs + 1 free tech. 2 RAs can easily net you another tech if you simply queued techs in the tree.

Thank you for that insight! I rarely play as Korea and your post gave me a very good reason to try them again.

 

[AxelRhodd]

I always try to built the GL if I have few forest hexes near by and especially when I have marble. I will buy one worker using cash from meeting CSs and get the other one from policy. With 2 workers chopping and/or improving marble I'd say I get the GL 75% of the time on Deity.
I never build GL if there is an AI civ nearby.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I always try to built the GL if I have few forest hexes near by and especially when I have marble. I will buy one worker using cash from meeting CSs and get the other one from policy. With 2 workers chopping and/or improving marble I'd say I get the GL 75% of the time on Deity.
I never build GL if there is an AI civ nearby.

And how many times would you reroll?
What marble, btw? In order to have a chance to build it on Deity you need to aim for turn 34 top (I'd say 75% of the games it goes before that). Which means beelining Writing. By the time you research Masonry + build the quarry, GL is gone.
Although, IIRC, you play small or even tiny maps. That skews the timeframe a bit.

 

[Resonance]

you get the marble bonus if you settle on it.

 

[prince_caspian]

you get the marble bonus if you settle on it.

But you still need the tech to get the bonus. Unless you are so lucky as to pop two tech ruins which happened to give you Mining AND Masonry, GL will definitely be gone by the time you actually got Masonry AND Writing AND started GL production. And settling on marble may or may not be ideal depending on the capital starting location. Now you get what Pilgrim says when asks in retort how many times would you have to reroll?

 

[animalguy]

But you still need the tech to get the bonus. Unless you are so lucky as to pop two tech ruins which happened to give you Mining AND Masonry, GL will definitely be gone by the time you actually got Masonry AND Writing AND started GL production. And settling on marble may or may not be ideal depending on the capital starting location. Now you get what Pilgrim says when asks in retort how many times would you have to reroll?

You actually dont need masonry to unlock the bonus, at least last time I checked. Though I still believe that there would be a fair few re-rolls in order to get the marble in the first place

 

[Resonance]

But you still need the tech to get the bonus. Unless you are so lucky as to pop two tech ruins which happened to give you Mining AND Masonry, GL will definitely be gone by the time you actually got Masonry AND Writing AND started GL production. And settling on marble may or may not be ideal depending on the capital starting location. Now you get what Pilgrim says when asks in retort how many times would you have to reroll?

Yes I do, as I only play deity games. You are mistaken about the bonus though. You get if you settle on marble, even without masonry.

 

[jeespoks]

And how many times would you reroll?
What marble, btw? In order to have a chance to build it on Deity you need to aim for turn 34 top (I'd say 75% of the games it goes before that). Which means beelining Writing. By the time you research Masonry + build the quarry, GL is gone.
Although, IIRC, you play small or even tiny maps. That skews the timeframe a bit.

Seems like GL goes on Deity either before turn 32-34 (I'd say 90% of games) or very late (had a game where it went around turn 80-90).

I don't go for GL unless I'm going for Science victory and manage to build it before turn 31-32. Once managed to build GL on turn 28 when I popped Writing from ruins, had a great site on cap and chopped three forests but these are very rare occasions.

 

[prince_caspian]

Ok, sorry if I got the marble bonus wrong. Guess I'll have to check again.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Yes I do, as I only play deity games. You are mistaken about the bonus though. You get if you settle on marble, even without masonry.

True. However, settling on marble means giving up on quarry and often on river as well. What for? To get extra hammer per turn towards GL? While I'm a big fan of settling on luxes, I think I've settled on marble maybe once. And only when it was the opposite situation. It actually allowed better position than the initial one. Of course not due to immediate wonder bonus.

Seems like GL goes on Deity either before turn 32-34 (I'd say 90% of games) or very late (had a game where it went around turn 80-90).

I don't go for GL unless I'm going for Science victory and manage to build it before turn 31-32. Once managed to build GL on turn 28 when I popped Writing from ruins, had a great site on cap and chopped three forests but these are very rare occasions.

True again. Turn 32 is more realistic goal. I was extra large, one should give people the benefit of the doubt.
On topic, following science LP I did not a long time ago, I wanted to make a comparison between 4 quick cities setup vs. GL start. Although in my original game it didn't go before turn 42 (achievable for human player), when I tried to replay it, I was beaten to GL three times in a row between 29-31. Egypt with marble didn't help, of course, but for some reason during the first attempt Ramesses wasn't in a hurry. Perhaps he knew I was not going after it? Anyways, I still want to do this comparison. On immortal, probably. I'm not capable of rerolling 20 times to make it on deity.