Great person tile improvements

[Edaka]

As we know, the manufactory is the only one to have only 4 base yields (all production), while both the academy and the town are at 6 (6 science and 4 gold, 2 food, respectively). Might be the reason the manufactory seems so underwhelming, especially compared to the ability to instant-build any wonder of the early to mid game.

Expanding on GP tile improvements more, I think the academy is the only one to receive +3 yields from its tech scaling, while the others receive +2. I'm not sure if that's needed after the science rework, but we could also bring others to +3 instead of nerfing the academy. We could also leave it as is if that's fine, I guess, but I'll always have the itch because of the asymmetry.

Oh, by the way, it's worth to notice that the town's base yields can easily be brought up to 10 (not counting scalers). +1 gold and production for being on the road and just as much for having a caravan passing over it. Something to keep in mind. At the same time, I can envision Funak coming in with something like 'But their instant ability is so good that I don't build towns anyway!'. That's true - 20 turns of WLTKD in all cities is nothing to sneeze at and can easily cause perpetual WLTKD towards the late game. For what it's worth, I think cutting the duration a little would benefit the subsequential balancing of the town (shall we decide it's needed).

Bottom line:
*manufactory desperately needs a buff;
*either cut scaling on academies or buff the others (might be unnecessary);
*great merchants, both their tile improvement and the instant ability, are possibly in need of a nerf.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I'd rather see buffs than nerfs.

Yeah I always find Manufactories to be a bit disappointing and tend to put them in new cities to jump start their Production. Cities can get easily Production and need a lot of it and Manufactories are a bit lacking in the upscaling department compared to Mines and even Lumbermills.

They should get either 2 Food so we can work them on Hills or 2 Production for boringness. They should get more Tech bonuses vs the Building bonuses that Mines and LumberMills get so cities can focus their Production elsewhere.

 

[Funak]

I'd just like to point out that all 3 of the great tile improvements run out of steam and value around the mid-game. Nerfing them are probably not the way to go.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Yeah when you get Industrial all GPs should be spent for their ability and not Improvement. Only Freedom has them continue to feel worth it. The boosts at the end game are too spreadout.

 

[Funak]

Yeah when you get Industrial all GPs should be spent for their ability and not Improvement. Only Freedom has them continue to feel worth it. The boosts at the end game are too spreadout.

The freedom boost to them usually isn't even worth taking. I don't play enough tradition, but at most I have 6 or 7 settled GPs before i just start bulbing them, and that's with me probably settling them for too long. In that situation the freedom boost would land me 28 yields, nowhere near goo enough for a pick.

 

[Kolaris]

I'd just like to point out that all 3 of the great tile improvements run out of steam and value around the mid-game. Nerfing them are probably not the way to go.

Well that's when the Reformation Belief, World Congress Proposal, and Freedom Tenant kick in. If I'm going Tradition I usually want to pick up a couple of those, and I'll be working those tiles in perpetuity.

Though without any of those 3, the factory is indeed quite poor.

 

[Funak]

Well that's when the Reformation Belief, World Congress Proposal, and Freedom Tenant kick in. If I'm going Tradition I usually want to pick up a couple of those, and I'll be working those tiles in perpetuity.

Though without any of those 3, the factory is indeed quite poor.

Actually think the Academy falls of faster than the manufactory. Medieval era, the science from the academy starts becoming negligible while manufactories can still be used to boost up low production cities or even as a pimped up mine, mainly because production is so key throughout the game.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Would it help to have a Science modifier somewhere? WI the the Freedom policy that boosted GWorks was added to the one that boosts GP Improvements?

It can't be helped that the instant abilities will be better in the later stages of the game. Would it help making the Techs that improve GPI earlier?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I'm against nerfing the GIs, they're in the right spot. The weaker GI's should get buffs if anything, not the other way around.

The Great Engineer Manufactory could use more starting yield for sure. Perhaps +2 Science if granting it more early production would break it?

 

[notque]

I tend to always make manufacturys instead of rushing wonders, and they are very underwhelming here for the reasons brought up.

I would certainly love a buff to them. Manufactorys often made toys or fashion, you could easily add a culture benefit to them as well as straight production.

 

[Kolaris]

What exactly are Manufactory's supposed to be representing in the pre-Industrial eras anyway?

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I'd just like to point out that all 3 of the great tile improvements run out of steam and value around the mid-game. Nerfing them are probably not the way to go.

I would love it if the decision to put a manufactory on a strategic resource like iron or coal and have it be unquestionably and obviously better than a mine, even if the hammers unlock at different points in the tech tree or at different buildings.

As it is, I can never quite justify the decision -- there's more total hammers if I put the building elsewhere, and then there's almost always a wonder, or even a national wonder, that I could polish off to better effect than the tile improvement.

What if there was a little gold on manufactories, the way there was a little food on towns?

 

[BenchBreaker]

i use manufacturery to connect resources, especially ones that hasnt been improved yet, usually on jungle/swamp. gives a better tile than base improvement without needing to work 2 tiles

 

[Almonds]

In addition to buffs, maybe you should only be allowed to use a GP's active ability after popping and settling a certain amount of tiles, like the first three Great Scientists you generate have to become Academies somewhere and starting on your fourth one it can be either.

 

[PurpleMentat]

I mostly dump Manufacturies on high-food luxuries. I never use Academies, even if I get a GS in Classical. I love Towns. However, mostly, I bulb all my GP.

The big problem here is there are very few viable 'Tall' playstyles left. Wide is the way to go. Settling a Great Person on a single tile just doesn't have much benefit when you have ten cities to manage. Even my attempts to intentionally play 'tall' lately have ended up with a dozen or more cities by Modern, as it just never makes sense not to settle more. With every city you settle, the value of spending a GP on making one city awesome goes down compared to the empire-wide benefits of bulbing (including getting any Wonders from the GE).

 

[PurpleMentat]

An example: I'm early Classical, 1175 BC, turn 113 on Epic. Great Engineer is born. I have three wonders I could build that all take 8 turns. Dropping the Manufactury on my Marble or Salt does not change how long they'll take to build, but I can finish one instantly instead. In terms of pure yields, I'll get 10x the overall hammers from planting the Manufactury, but that doesn't get me the Hanging Garden this turn. In a game of early snowball, immediate production on key projects is worth far more than 10x those hammers over the next 500 turns.

Jut got my first Great Scientist, which lead to an idea bout the Academy. Part of why it is weak it has no local value. Science is an empire yield that doesn't benefit a city directly. Adding some sort of Science to Culture conversion onto the Library could allow for some interesting options in this arena. Culture is mostly an empire yield, but also helps cities claim tiles.

 

[void_genesis]

How about making great engineer improvement tiles on strategic resources double the amount of resources? Could make for some very interesting decisions. It would also help taller tradition type empires boost any limited amount of strategic resources if they can't acquire them through expansion.

Another option would be to make manufactories build-able on any tiles or terrain regardless of unlocking techs, instantly connection any luxury or strategic resources, again regardless of techs.

 

[Atlas627]

I do have to agree that with fewer non-wide-scaling percentile bonuses (aka the national wonders that used to give percentile boosts), wide is always better than tall if you can afford it. Finding when to afford it is the interesting part.

I use GP tile improvements a lot, but sometimes I have a need for an immediate yield. Also keep in mind the Merchants are terrible so GM are great.

 

[Edaka]

How about making great engineer improvement tiles on strategic resources double the amount of resources? Could make for some very interesting decisions. It would also help taller tradition type empires boost any limited amount of strategic resources if they can't acquire them through expansion.

Ooooh, I like this a lot! I was just talking about possible new ways of acquiring SR monopolies in another thread and this haven't even crossed my mind! Not only it does that along with what you've said - it also makes the manufactory feel 'great'!

If we're talking about buffing the academy, it could provide an adjacency bonus similar to the polder. Say, +1 science to all mines and lumbermills around the academy. Maybe add farms farms into the mix too if the former doesn't feel 'great'enough, but that will probably make it too strong too early.

By the way, I imagine you guys have something similar to be said about great works. To me they become plain unimpressive and undesirable after a certain point in the game, game en when I'm going for a cultural victory. Since they're not the primary tourism generators anymore, would it make sense to add some yield scaling from tech to them (if possible)? Make them gain +2 culture and even another +2 tourism at some point, as that would encourage theming more since this can be doubled. Alternatively, the flat bonus theming yields from buildings could be increased or even reworked into something more incentivising. Something like this: theming the Louvre gives +2 science and +2 gold from all museums. Perhaps even percentual bonuses, e.g. theming Globe Theatre gives +25% to great writer generation across the empire.

Sorry for being bad at keeping discussion focused on one thing. Great works could have their own thread if needed.

 

[Gokudo01]

I think GPTI can be buff a little but I think they need to have an extra purpose. I am not a partisan of nerfing bulbing to bring them in line . Yes you can nerf everything until it's balanced but you remove the satisfaction, the cool moment ( Hey I've got a great scientist to get 1/4 of my next science WHOUHOU ....) and any choices.

I think when we don't fear power creeps, I should talk about buff instead of nerf.

So I've got 3 propositions, they could :

1 - give adjacents(scaling???) bonus to plots near GPTI :

+1(2?) science for tiles around academies
+1(2?) production for tiles around manufactures.

2 - give scaling bonus to the GPTI.

Academies/Manufactures : 8 science/6 production +5% science/production to the city


3 - grant some related GP point and some culture
Academies grants Scientist points .
Manufactures grants Engineer points.