Great Scientists should be nerfed

[donhenriko]

There is no doubt in my mind. Great Scientists are too powerful in Civ V.

A good example is that you can skip rifling, artillery and infantry and go directly to mech inf in late renessaince era if you have saved enough with them (+ oxford and rationalism). This means that you can skip industrial warfare all together and proceed directly to modern warfare. This fact makes many units go obsolete too quickly; not only late renaissance units such as canons, cavalry and rifles, but also industrial units such as infantry and artillery.

Furthermore in early modern era, if you save enough scientists, lets say 8. you combine them with oxford university and rationalism, you can get 11 tech in a row. That makes it very easy to get giant death robots rather early in the modern era. GDR makes all other units obsolete.

In both cases, the balance of the game is most probably destroyed since one player will have much stronger units than the others. In an MP game, this is unfortunate because it destroys a lot of fun balanced warfare and the reason is overpowered scientists.

Personally when I play MP, I only try to get GS. All other great persons are a total waste, except, perhaps great engineers from time to time. I often end up saving 6-8 and can do those thing explained above.

I wonder therefore what civ MP community thinks about great scientists. Do you agree with me? If you do, how can GS be nerfed?

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

You are offtopic : this is the forum NQ vs League. Please come back to topic.

 

[Kyp Durron]

*chuckles at kiffe*

 

[donhenriko]

You are offtopic : this is the forum NQ vs League. Please come back to topic.

 

[Kyp Durron]

One thing is that when the competition is strong enough you cant save your scientist that long. Or else they will zoom Artys and you will be 3 techs to slow and ranged to death..

But I do see your point.

 

[donhenriko]

in ffa's it happens that some players are more isolated than others. While some players go to war, others just sit still and build infra. Then when the time is right, they can do this trick. Of course, in teamer or duel that's not possible since you have permanent war,

 

[Kyp Durron]

True. Or sometimes you are so far ahead in science anyway that you are reaching artys when they should be bulbing them.

 

[donhenriko]

what im trying to say is that you can skip arties and infs all together and go directly to mech inf. I'v seen it be done, and done it many times myself. Arties are no match for mech inf

 

[uigaw423]

I actaully had a good idea in another of these types of forums....

Great artists can culture bomb once every 10 turns.

What if the same were implemented for GS?

 

[donhenriko]

example: you skip metallurgy, rifling, fertilizer and artillery.

If you then have military science, scientific theory and archelogy, there are only 5 tech ahead to get mech inf (steam power, biology, electricity, telegraph, electronics) which equals 2 scientists, oxford and rationalism.

it is not that difficult to have 2 scientists and rationalism ready at that point in the game.

 

[donhenriko]

I actaully had a good idea in another of these types of forums....

Great artists can culture bomb once every 10 turns.

What if the same were implemented for GS?

I like the idea. It would prevent players from stacking GSs.

 

[uigaw423]

I think there is no question on how over powered saving them can be.

 

[donhenriko]

example: you skip metallurgy, rifling, fertilizer and artillery.

If you then have military science, scientific theory and archelogy, there are only 5 tech ahead to get mech inf (steam power, biology, electricity, telegraph, electronics) which equals 2 scientists, oxford and rationalism.

it is not that difficult to have 2 scientists and rationalism ready at that point in the game.

in this case, the player will arrive in the industrial and then modern era in the same turn.

 

[uigaw423]

in this case, the player will arrive in the industrial and then modern era in the same turn.

YUP. This is something that is abused / used often. Would be nice to slow Industrial down just a bit in a competitive MP game. Can I use the word competitive here?

Blowing thru 2 eras in 1 turn is a big game changer for sure.

 

[Silverfuturist]

I like the idea. It would prevent players from stacking GSs.

I like that suggestion. Can only bulb once every 10 turns. But you can settle as many great scientists as you want at once. Bulbing GS would not be impacted by free techs thru other means (Oxford, Rationalism.)

I always thought it was funny they limited great artist but none other, maybe they afraid The Lourve's artists + saved artists would be abused to strip a capital of its land? Imagine your city is next to a capital and there is a road between them. Pop the first GA, move the next in on the road, pop it, move the 3rd in on the same turn, and the opponnent's capital has no more land!

 

[uigaw423]

in this case, the player will arrive in the industrial and then modern era in the same turn.

I like that suggestion. Can only bulb once every 10 turns. But you can settle as many great scientists as you want at once. Bulbing GS would not be impacted by free techs thru other means (Oxford, Rationalism.)

I always thought it was funny they limited great artist but none other, maybe they afraid The Lourve's artists + saved artists would be abused to strip a capital of its land? Imagine your city is next to a capital and there is a road between them. Pop the first GA, move the next in on the road, pop it, move the 3rd in on the same turn, and the opponnent's capital has no more land!

I have actually done close to that but it took 30 turns! I think the culture bomb is underrated especially if you think about having wonders like great wall and hemji. Makes it easier to attack someone with those bonus' if they do not control the land any longer!

 

[tommynt]

read my sig

How to fix Civ5 Research and Trade system
Ok here is how civ at higher lvls (deity wins and fast wins on other lvls) is played:

Sign RAs with EVERY civ out there
Gather as many scientists as possible and keep them
Trade everything (lux and strat) for pure gold to finance RAs again and again
"Blub" every tech past electricity in 1 turn with some ending RA 6-7 scientists used in 1 turn and Rationalism finisher.

This is neither realistic NOR fun, late game SHOULD actually be played and how realistic is it that Einstein, Newton and all those other guys had their great ideas all in 1 day.

FIX:
No more option to get full techs:
-Scientists: Option to get free tech just not there, Academies and GA are good enough options. Make Academies getting stronger over time. Like starting with 6 in class and + 2 for each era u reach.
-Reasearch Agreements: No more get x Amount of science at end. Instead a fixed % of other civs bakkers is flown to each other (like 10%) every turn. U have to pay a fixed amount of g/t to keep that flow (like 6g/t +2) more for each era u advance.
Trades in general:
-No more 30t lasting deals. Every deals last as long as either side cancels it. Only g/t for res deals. If some1 cancels a deal he get Diplo penalty depending how fast he cancels the deals (no more negative effect after 60 turns).
-Get also rid of free techs from Oxford (give it +15% teching instead) and scientific revolution (make Academies stronger with it). PT and Rati starter may increase the % u get from RA (like 5% each) or get totaly revamped.

Adavntages:
No more retrading every 30turns.
No need for stuff like "median" pushing.
Actually modern era is played, not "skipped"
No more cheese ai plundering golds.
No anoyance about AI declaring war 1t before RAs end as it doesnt even know how RA work
Way more realistic setting, science output increases over time, no possibilities to get techs in 1 turn.

 

[uigaw423]

read my sig

How to fix Civ5 Research and Trade system
Ok here is how civ at higher lvls (deity wins and fast wins on other lvls) is played:

Sign RAs with EVERY civ out there
Gather as many scientists as possible and keep them
Trade everything (lux and strat) for pure gold to finance RAs again and again
"Blub" every tech past electricity in 1 turn with some ending RA 6-7 scientists used in 1 turn and Rationalism finisher.

This is neither realistic NOR fun, late game SHOULD actually be played and how realistic is it that Einstein, Newton and all those other guys had their great ideas all in 1 day.

FIX:
No more option to get full techs:
-Scientists: Option to get free tech just not there, Academies and GA are good enough options. Make Academies getting stronger over time. Like starting with 6 in class and + 2 for each era u reach.
-Reasearch Agreements: No more get x Amount of science at end. Instead a fixed % of other civs bakkers is flown to each other (like 10%) every turn. U have to pay a fixed amount of g/t to keep that flow (like 6g/t +2) more for each era u advance.
Trades in general:
-No more 30t lasting deals. Every deals last as long as either side cancels it. Only g/t for res deals. If some1 cancels a deal he get Diplo penalty depending how fast he cancels the deals (no more negative effect after 60 turns).
-Get also rid of free techs from Oxford (give it +15% teching instead) and scientific revolution (make Academies stronger with it). PT and Rati starter may increase the % u get from RA (like 5% each) or get totaly revamped.

Adavntages:
No more retrading every 30turns.
No need for stuff like "median" pushing.
Actually modern era is played, not "skipped"
No more cheese ai plundering golds.
No anoyance about AI declaring war 1t before RAs end as it doesnt even know how RA work
Way more realistic setting, science output increases over time, no possibilities to get techs in 1 turn.

Yeah the link in your sig was actually the one I originally posted it in today.

The only problem I see with all that (the whole discussion is good), is that it would take some work from the developers to get something like that implemented and well, that might not happen.

The 10 turn thing would be pretty quick and easy since it is already like that for another great person.

Though the ideas in that discussion are pretty good.

 

[Tabarnak]

Pretty agree with tommy here.

About gs, i prefer getting rifles and artillery early and begin to build them way earlier than to wait and build infras for mech inf. Especially on a pangea map. There is some good policies that enhance the rifle/arty rush instead of rationalism.

 

[uigaw423]

Pretty agree with tommy here.

About gs, i prefer getting rifles and artillery early and begin to build them way earlier than to wait and build infras for mech inf. Especially on a pangea map. There is some good policies that enhance the rifle/arty rush instead of rationalism.

The only thing with this is if there is even one person behind a really good choke point it is better to go somewhat like what don was implying but instead of going all the way to mech grab up flight, which if I am not mistaken (at work can't look it up), you only need steam power.