Great Scientists should be nerfed

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In teamers or duels you only have one opponent to care about. The cost-benefit analysis of any move truly changes when you have to incorporate the actions of more opponents. I.E. Duel-ish warfare in the beginning of the game against your neighbor in an FFA may prove very detrimental in the long run for your tech output; causing you to lag behind other players in tech. This will happen even though you eventually win the "duel-ish" war with your neighbor given that it costs alot to kill him.

I a duel both players have to build units so "lagging behind in tech" is not an issue. teamer is also similar

I know that they are all different... I play them all, I still have many more hours logged into FFA than duel/teamers. My other posts show I can put a spaceship up in under 200 turns in peaceful FFA conditions without RAs for example.

Its just a game, play the way that is the most fun for you... I was having fun on FFA, but teamer unlocked a higher level of fun for me. It was like I was driving a sports car in 5th gear... then realized there is a 6th gear as well.
 
I know that they are all different... I play them all, I still have many more hours logged into FFA than duel/teamers. My other posts show I can put a spaceship up in under 200 turns in peaceful FFA conditions without RAs for example.

Its just a game, play the way that is the most fun for you... I was having fun on FFA, but teamer unlocked a higher level of fun for me. It was like I was driving a sports car in 5th gear... then realized there is a 6th gear as well.

Well, people are different. I have not played alot of teamer in Civ 5, but I did in Civ 4. I find the game completely predictable and not very interesting. Duel has never been my thing, even though I have played that to. If Sultan and I enjoyed teamer and duels, we would never had the incentive to create NQ.
 
One thing is that when the competition is strong enough you cant save your scientist that long. Or else they will zoom Artys and you will be 3 techs to slow and ranged to death..

But I do see your point.

Have you ever played a FFA with Robica? IMO, he is one of the top FFA players in the civ community.

This is his speciality (skip metallurgy, rifling, fertilizer artilllery and go directly to mech inf), litterally.
 
There's two separate issues here - one, that Great Scientists are overpowered, especially given exploits in the technology tree, and two, your example case.

I agree that being able to pop multiple great scientists in the same turn means that you can rapidly achieve technologies that can shift game balance dramatically. A typically exploited weakness is going from Steel & Physics to Rifles in 1 turn (normally around turn 80-90 depending on GL/PT) or to Fertilizer (if you don't have any close enemies). These could easily be addressed with the X-turn wait period suggested earlier. I like this as it's a simple change, and not likely to screw with the balance of the game (which seems nicely balanced at this stage apart from HG and _maybe_ the iroquois rush on small maps). There could be other "complicated" rules you could add on, but imposing a cool-down period would be a step in the right direction.

It still means you can do a 4-tech with an appropriately timed OC / Rationalism / GS, but it's a one off event that gives a science player the edge for a period of time. The game can't be balanced at all stages - e.g. a science / wonder player very vulnerable to early rushes (sorry to all those reading who have been rushed by me of late). So I am not so against that - it's also available to all players (unlike wonder races or UU/UA/UB).

As to the second point, I agree with the other people like Tab that are not so keen on your example. To get Mech Inf with 5 Free Tech pops ready to go, you need the almost the whole ren tree, excluding only Fertilizer, Metallurgy and Rifling. Consider the tech difference between Art Rush and getting Sci Theory / Military Science. The two late techs (Arch/Sci Theory and Fertilizer/Rifiling) balance out. So the difference in tech is the whole naval branch (1635 beakers) vs Metallurgy + Dynamite (2344). So it's almost the same total cost in bulbs, however, you need to take into account your opponent doesn't need to "save" 5 free techs. They can probably bulb at least 2-3 of the techs to get to Art a good 10-15 turns before you are ready to pop. Even then, once you have Electronics, you don't have any upgrade path, so you either have to spend 600+ gold per unit or hard build them (251 prod). Not to mention you've been paying maintenance on those GS for a quite a few turns by then.

Rifles and Artillery have great upgrade paths, so you need to be able to deal with Rifle Rushes from about turn 90 or so, and then at least 15 or so turns of your opponent having Artillery / Rifles. Calvary might be your solution, but mounted units are still relatively underpowered.

(I realize there's some gains from observatory / ocean buildings depending on city location, but fertilizer is pretty powerful also)

All that said, I am not at the same skill level as you though, so you'd get a chance to wipe me out with your Mech Inf ;)

Jump to electronics is a nice follow up to Dynamite though (I normally go to Combustion then Nukes with the OC/Rationalism approach, but that's very resource dependent). Also, if you are way ahead, mopping up the other players with Mech Inf is much faster than Artillery / Rifles (especially when taking out that annoying Great Wall player...)

Since you're already going rationalism, fertilizer is not that good. You should build trade posts where there is no water tiles adjecent in order to maximize science output.
 
PLAYING duel or teamer is like making food..you follow recipe..
its is always following the same pattern..
FFA games creats new possibiltis....
GG and go DON
 
PLAYING duel or teamer is like making food..you follow recipe..
its is always following the same pattern..
FFA games creats new possibiltis....
GG and go DON

Well said sultan.

I'm sure Tommynt always follows the same recipe when he plays duels. I'm guessing ALWAYS liberty. Be that with noobs or experienced players.
Have you EVER picked honor in your beloved duels without barbs?
 
i remember playing duel or teamer at civ4.. the guys had this recipe..
1.archer
2.mining
3.bronze (than you go slavery)
4.animal
5.iron or horse
and i dont remember more....

what is the new recipe??? PLZ TELL???
 
PLAYING duel or teamer is like making food..you follow recipe..
its is always following the same pattern..

You don't have to like teamer, play whatever is fun, not always same recipe/pattern...
Last 5 teamers, 5 different recipes.
Different tech orders, diff era to try and rush, diff wonder priorities, diff # of cities to build, sometimes use GS right away/sometimes save for chain, diff policy trees, sometimes focus on tech, sometimes focus on production, sometimes focus on military, some games last 1 hour, some 8 hours, etc...

Some circumstances will have similar patterns, must look at map, distance between civs, what the civs are, where the resources are... if you roll the same exact civs everytime, they roll the same exact civs, the same exact start is played, the opponent tries the same thing, then it will prob fall into a recipe/pattern.
 
u guys are really funny.

I mean honestly: u really want spend your life with "tommy is bad", nothing better to do?
I m back to actually playing the game ...

so much envy :(

I never said you're bad. You're the one saying we are bad. You have done that many times now.

Im just saying that only playing duel and teamer is not fun, at least IMO. Game becomes static and predictable. When there are 6 0r 8 players all fighting against eachother, then games get interesting.

Btw, this has nothing to do with evny. Im just sick and tired of all your patronizing remarks. I never said "tommy is bad", I said "tommy is a douch" Moderator Action: Insults are not necessary.
 
I just looked through your posts, and I found at least 4 unprovoked negative remarks about NQ from you:


Tommynt:
maybe read the other threads before starting new?
u can:
Shift steam profile to New York (east coast) zone there u ll find some "open games"
Do that if u like games with dumb setting which never end before every1 quit
Ask the NQ guys if they r fancy traing a game with u
Do that if u like playing 7+ hour games and got no real life and are bad at playing civ
Join league and league chat
Do that if u r somewhat decent at playing civ and like playing also duels/teamers

Just host yourself
Do that if u just want host yourself and see if people like your settings

Moderator Action: The digs at NQ and east coast are unnecessary trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/faq.php?faq=updated_rules_2011


Tommynt:

worse then quitters are people who rather waste every1s lifetime then commiting a loss once they are defeated.
If i want play a game with "braindead" guys i can just play with ai - its same


Tommynt:

Well but they play at the power of prince lvl ais, and also pretty much same style.
I rather play with humans who are able to play like humans, with brain and charisma



Tommynt:
Its allways a big problem when people playing only bads talk about stratgic stuff, sure playing bad works when playing bads - do we have to discuss that?

----------------------------------------
Do you think it's wierd that I/we think you're an idiot?

P.S. At least now you're no longer a league chat moderator so that civ players know that your ranting has nothing to do with the official league policy towards NQ. Thank you CanuckSoldier!!!
 
Tommy is a bit arrogant and harsh in some statements, but he sure knows what he says. Some things people say about game strategy are so stupid. Those who cant play duels dont know how game is really played. There is no variety of strategies in duels and that is game-design flaw. Anyone who say:"No, you can do a lot of different things" just doesnt completely understand game mechanics and cant calculate "alternative choice costs". (when you choose to do something, you lose opportunuty to do something else).

FFAs are very passive and encourage ganging. 2 moderately playing players can win one top level. Is it fair? I doubt. But is it fun? Quite maybe. FFAs allow you to play to the end even if you have only one city. By the end of game there will definitely be alliances to beat runaway civ. You can than join one side or another just for fun, even if you cant win you can have some impact game outcome. What I dislike about FFA is its passiveness early-mid game. At current state of MP, the game will be long over because of crashes/lags/leavers by the time it'll be time for war.

P.S. Anyone can say anything he wants regarding anything. If you think that statement is not true, you can argue but in separate topic and without directing these words specifically against someone.
 
Its allways a big problem when people playing only bads talk about stratgic stuff, sure playing bad works when playing bads - do we have to discuss that?

LOokie here, saying I am bad and should not talk strategy is uncalled for. Honestly, I am not that bad, not at all.

That being said:
Only I can say how bad I am! I am awful, the worst Civ player ever, and I NEVER win! :crazyeye:

PS-What happened to the little star by your name in the League Chat room?
 
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