Great Scientists should be nerfed

[donhenriko]

read my sig

How to fix Civ5 Research and Trade system
Ok here is how civ at higher lvls (deity wins and fast wins on other lvls) is played:

Sign RAs with EVERY civ out there
Gather as many scientists as possible and keep them
Trade everything (lux and strat) for pure gold to finance RAs again and again
"Blub" every tech past electricity in 1 turn with some ending RA 6-7 scientists used in 1 turn and Rationalism finisher.

This is neither realistic NOR fun, late game SHOULD actually be played and how realistic is it that Einstein, Newton and all those other guys had their great ideas all in 1 day.

FIX:
No more option to get full techs:
-Scientists: Option to get free tech just not there, Academies and GA are good enough options. Make Academies getting stronger over time. Like starting with 6 in class and + 2 for each era u reach.
-Reasearch Agreements: No more get x Amount of science at end. Instead a fixed % of other civs bakkers is flown to each other (like 10%) every turn. U have to pay a fixed amount of g/t to keep that flow (like 6g/t +2) more for each era u advance.
Trades in general:
-No more 30t lasting deals. Every deals last as long as either side cancels it. Only g/t for res deals. If some1 cancels a deal he get Diplo penalty depending how fast he cancels the deals (no more negative effect after 60 turns).
-Get also rid of free techs from Oxford (give it +15% teching instead) and scientific revolution (make Academies stronger with it). PT and Rati starter may increase the % u get from RA (like 5% each) or get totaly revamped.

Adavntages:
No more retrading every 30turns.
No need for stuff like "median" pushing.
Actually modern era is played, not "skipped"
No more cheese ai plundering golds.
No anoyance about AI declaring war 1t before RAs end as it doesnt even know how RA work
Way more realistic setting, science output increases over time, no possibilities to get techs in 1 turn.

I like the ideas.

 

[Noitcelfer]

There is no doubt in my mind. Great Scientists are too powerful in Civ V.

A good example is that you can skip rifling, artillery and infantry and go directly to mech inf in late renessaince era if you have saved enough with them (+ oxford and rationalism). This means that you can skip industrial warfare all together and proceed directly to modern warfare. This fact makes many units go obsolete too quickly; not only late renaissance units such as canons, cavalry and rifles, but also industrial units such as infantry and artillery.

Furthermore in early modern era, if you save enough scientists, lets say 8. you combine them with oxford university and rationalism, you can get 11 tech in a row. That makes it very easy to get giant death robots rather early in the modern era. GDR makes all other units obsolete.

In both cases, the balance of the game is most probably destroyed since one player will have much stronger units than the others. In an MP game, this is unfortunate because it destroys a lot of fun balanced warfare and the reason is overpowered scientists.

Personally when I play MP, I only try to get GS. All other great persons are a total waste, except, perhaps great engineers from time to time. I often end up saving 6-8 and can do those thing explained above.

I wonder therefore what civ MP community thinks about great scientists. Do you agree with me? If you do, how can GS be nerfed?

There's two separate issues here - one, that Great Scientists are overpowered, especially given exploits in the technology tree, and two, your example case.

I agree that being able to pop multiple great scientists in the same turn means that you can rapidly achieve technologies that can shift game balance dramatically. A typically exploited weakness is going from Steel & Physics to Rifles in 1 turn (normally around turn 80-90 depending on GL/PT) or to Fertilizer (if you don't have any close enemies). These could easily be addressed with the X-turn wait period suggested earlier. I like this as it's a simple change, and not likely to screw with the balance of the game (which seems nicely balanced at this stage apart from HG and _maybe_ the iroquois rush on small maps). There could be other "complicated" rules you could add on, but imposing a cool-down period would be a step in the right direction.

It still means you can do a 4-tech with an appropriately timed OC / Rationalism / GS, but it's a one off event that gives a science player the edge for a period of time. The game can't be balanced at all stages - e.g. a science / wonder player very vulnerable to early rushes (sorry to all those reading who have been rushed by me of late). So I am not so against that - it's also available to all players (unlike wonder races or UU/UA/UB).

As to the second point, I agree with the other people like Tab that are not so keen on your example. To get Mech Inf with 5 Free Tech pops ready to go, you need the almost the whole ren tree, excluding only Fertilizer, Metallurgy and Rifling. Consider the tech difference between Art Rush and getting Sci Theory / Military Science. The two late techs (Arch/Sci Theory and Fertilizer/Rifiling) balance out. So the difference in tech is the whole naval branch (1635 beakers) vs Metallurgy + Dynamite (2344). So it's almost the same total cost in bulbs, however, you need to take into account your opponent doesn't need to "save" 5 free techs. They can probably bulb at least 2-3 of the techs to get to Art a good 10-15 turns before you are ready to pop. Even then, once you have Electronics, you don't have any upgrade path, so you either have to spend 600+ gold per unit or hard build them (251 prod). Not to mention you've been paying maintenance on those GS for a quite a few turns by then.

Rifles and Artillery have great upgrade paths, so you need to be able to deal with Rifle Rushes from about turn 90 or so, and then at least 15 or so turns of your opponent having Artillery / Rifles. Calvary might be your solution, but mounted units are still relatively underpowered.

(I realize there's some gains from observatory / ocean buildings depending on city location, but fertilizer is pretty powerful also)

All that said, I am not at the same skill level as you though, so you'd get a chance to wipe me out with your Mech Inf

Jump to electronics is a nice follow up to Dynamite though (I normally go to Combustion then Nukes with the OC/Rationalism approach, but that's very resource dependent). Also, if you are way ahead, mopping up the other players with Mech Inf is much faster than Artillery / Rifles (especially when taking out that annoying Great Wall player...)

 

[uigaw423]

There's two separate issues here - one, that Great Scientists are overpowered, especially given exploits in the technology tree, and two, your example case.

I agree that being able to pop multiple great scientists in the same turn means that you can rapidly achieve technologies that can shift game balance dramatically. A typically exploited weakness is going from Steel & Physics to Rifles in 1 turn (normally around turn 80-90 depending on GL/PT) or to Fertilizer (if you don't have any close enemies). These could easily be addressed with the X-turn wait period suggested earlier. I like this as it's a simple change, and not likely to screw with the balance of the game (which seems nicely balanced at this stage apart from HG and _maybe_ the iroquois rush on small maps). There could be other "complicated" rules you could add on, but imposing a cool-down period would be a step in the right direction.

It still means you can do a 4-tech with an appropriately timed OC / Rationalism / GS, but it's a one off event that gives a science player the edge for a period of time. The game can't be balanced at all stages - e.g. a science / wonder player very vulnerable to early rushes (sorry to all those reading who have been rushed by me of late). So I am not so against that - it's also available to all players (unlike wonder races or UU/UA/UB).

As to the second point, I agree with the other people like Tab that are not so keen on your example. To get Mech Inf with 5 Free Tech pops ready to go, you need the almost the whole ren tree, excluding only Fertilizer, Metallurgy and Rifling. Consider the tech difference between Art Rush and getting Sci Theory / Military Science. The two late techs (Arch/Sci Theory and Fertilizer/Rifiling) balance out. So the difference in tech is the whole naval branch (1635 beakers) vs Metallurgy + Dynamite (2344). So it's almost the same total cost in bulbs, however, you need to take into account your opponent doesn't need to "save" 5 free techs. They can probably bulb at least 2-3 of the techs to get to Art a good 10-15 turns before you are ready to pop. Even then, once you have Electronics, you don't have any upgrade path, so you either have to spend 600+ gold per unit or hard build them (251 prod). Not to mention you've been paying maintenance on those GS for a quite a few turns by then.

Rifles and Artillery have great upgrade paths, so you need to be able to deal with Rifle Rushes from about turn 90 or so, and then at least 15 or so turns of your opponent having Artillery / Rifles. Calvary might be your solution, but mounted units are still relatively underpowered.

(I realize there's some gains from observatory / ocean buildings depending on city location, but fertilizer is pretty powerful also)

All that said, I am not at the same skill level as you though, so you'd get a chance to wipe me out with your Mech Inf

Jump to electronics is a nice follow up to Dynamite though (I normally go to Combustion then Nukes with the OC/Rationalism approach, but that's very resource dependent). Also, if you are way ahead, mopping up the other players with Mech Inf is much faster than Artillery / Rifles (especially when taking out that annoying Great Wall player...)

Think of a civ like ottomans though with janissary. Yes once you bulb mechs you have to run back and get the rifle upgrade, but going that top part of the tech tree should speed your science up to a point that after bulbing into modern era those ren era techs are discovered quick....then it is quick upgrade jan--->rifle (jan heal after kill promo) ----> infantry (heal after kill promo) ---> mech (heal after kill promo) ----> Game over, you win.

 

[tommynt]

apart all stuff said in here I gotta say:

I use scientist sometiems for academies in mp what I d never do in sp.
This is mainly due to multiple facts:

the %of my total Reasearch is boosted usualy bigger by a academy in mp as in sp;
In sp I can get like 500 bakkers a turn in mp usually hardly more then 100. So a increase of 10 from a academy is 10% in mp while it d be 2% in sp.

Also while I try to reach some "goal" (like Un tech) in sp, every tech helps in mp, getting ls 1 turn faster can be nice and so on and so on.

So well, i dont see GS free tech in mp as much of a problem as they are in singleplayer

 

[tommynt]

and regarding the discussion, try get artilieries fast or rather wait for mechs.

What does it help u to have mechs in 25 turns when a equal skilled opponent is shooting at your cap from 3 tile range?

While for example having LS and rifles fast as neightbour make a attack easier - artilleries vs no artilleries are a total killer - the increased range makes a HUGE difference

 

[Noitcelfer]

Think of a civ like ottomans though with janissary. Yes once you bulb mechs you have to run back and get the rifle upgrade, but going that top part of the tech tree should speed your science up to a point that after bulbing into modern era those ren era techs are discovered quick....then it is quick upgrade jan--->rifle (jan heal after kill promo) ----> infantry (heal after kill promo) ---> mech (heal after kill promo) ----> Game over, you win.

Yeah - I agree, longer term, it's a good strategy. It's just weak at a certain critical point (turns 80-120). Even if they don't hit you, they've hit everyone else on the map

Do Jans heal after taking a city?

 

[uigaw423]

and regarding the discussion, try get artilieries fast or rather wait for mechs.

What does it help u to have mechs in 25 turns when a equal skilled opponent is shooting at your cap from 3 tile range?

While for example having LS and rifles fast as neightbour make a attack easier - artilleries vs no artilleries are a total killer - the increased range makes a HUGE difference

Play something other than East/West, North/South, Skirmish, Pangea. Give fractal a shot you will see how it is possible to wait if you have a good choke point or are on a separate land mass with other competitors.

I guess you typically just play that one dimensional kind of game, I would be bored myself. I need variety and chance.

Also, lancers can take out artillery pretty easy, so can cavalry.

 

[Noitcelfer]

apart all stuff said in here I gotta say:

I use scientist sometiems for academies in mp what I d never do in sp.
This is mainly due to multiple facts:

the %of my total Reasearch is boosted usualy bigger by a academy in mp as in sp;
In sp I can get like 500 bakkers a turn in mp usually hardly more then 100. So a increase of 10 from a academy is 10% in mp while it d be 2% in sp.

Also while I try to reach some "goal" (like Un tech) in sp, every tech helps in mp, getting ls 1 turn faster can be nice and so on and so on.

So well, i dont see GS free tech in mp as much of a problem as they are in singleplayer

It's the back-to-back bulbing that's the issue - e.g. going from Steel to Rifles in a turn is a huge game changer. IMHO most games don't last long enough for the academy to pay off.

 

[Noitcelfer]

Play something other than East/West, North/South, Skirmish, Pangea. Give fractal a shot you will see how it is possible to wait if you have a good choke point or are on a separate land mass with other competitors.

I guess you typically just play that one dimensional kind of game, I would be bored myself. I need variety and chance.

Also, lancers can take out artillery pretty easy, so can cavalry.

Actually, I have found that the chokepoints on Fractal maps can be _very_ artillery friendly, especially when combined with caravels or other scouts (horse units with +1 scouting / playing as America) - the mountains / hills slow down enemy mobile units, and the caravel gives you the vision you need.

eml_joe - remember the artillery behind the mountains of your capital

 

[uigaw423]

Actually, I have found that the chokepoints on Fractal maps can be _very_ artillery friendly, especially when combined with caravels or other scouts (horse units with +1 scouting / playing as America) - the mountains / hills slow down enemy mobile units, and the caravel gives you the vision you need.

eml_joe - remember the artillery behind the mountains of your capital

If you are rushing artillery and i am rushing for mech inf then i will get astronomy before you and you probably won't have it yet.....yea you may kill my guy guarding choke point every turn but I could move a new weak guy in and build them fast. I guess both ways are valid but I would rather something be done to prevent multiple techs in a turn thru scientists.

 

[Tabarnak]

On water maps, its preferable to beeline Navigation first than everything else and get frigates soon enough to block or dominate the seas. With good land and good set-up, you can get these around turn 80. A single scout can take any city from the seas.

 

[tommynt]

Play something other than East/West, North/South, Skirmish, Pangea. Give fractal a shot you will see how it is possible to wait if you have a good choke point or are on a separate land mass with other competitors.

I guess you typically just play that one dimensional kind of game, I would be bored myself. I need variety and chance.

Also, lancers can take out artillery pretty easy, so can cavalry.

If you are rushing artillery and i am rushing for mech inf then i will get astronomy before you and you probably won't have it yet.....yea you may kill my guy guarding choke point every turn but I could move a new weak guy in and build them fast. I guess both ways are valid but I would rather something be done to prevent multiple techs in a turn thru scientists.

Its allways a big problem when people playing only bads talk about stratgic stuff, sure playing bad works when playing bads - do we have to discuss that?

 

[MasterMishi]

the only time my arty rifle push was countered by mech pop, his cap city was dead in 2 turns, he popped and countered to survive
and he was an occ france he had GW, i got mechs 10 turns later

 

[donhenriko]

apart all stuff said in here I gotta say:

I use scientist sometiems for academies in mp what I d never do in sp.
This is mainly due to multiple facts:

the %of my total Reasearch is boosted usualy bigger by a academy in mp as in sp;
In sp I can get like 500 bakkers a turn in mp usually hardly more then 100. So a increase of 10 from a academy is 10% in mp while it d be 2% in sp.

Also while I try to reach some "goal" (like Un tech) in sp, every tech helps in mp, getting ls 1 turn faster can be nice and so on and so on.

So well, i dont see GS free tech in mp as much of a problem as they are in singleplayer

This is obviously a duel tactic. When playing NQ FFAs 100 bpt is nothing. GS are often a complete game ruiner in civ MP (not duel or teamer). I never play SP, so I don't care about that.

That being said, I agree with Uigaw. PLay something else than duel for once. IMO, duel is very boring and is very different from FFAs. You're limitied scope of all around civ understanding renders your comments irrelevant in this discussion. Im really not interested in your duel tactics..

 

[donhenriko]

Its allways a big problem when people playing only bads talk about stratgic stuff, sure playing bad works when playing bads - do we have to discuss that?

It's obvious that he is right. Only plaing north-south, west-east duel is just tr
uly boring. We have been through this before. I'll rather be bad than to waste my time only playing duel on open maps. Jesus, you even play duel with first timers and noobs on CL. Where is the fun?

That variety is a good thing is beyond your comprehension i reckon. That fits perfectly with your less than average intelligent comments you leave on CFC. The worst thing of it all, is that you think that you have leverage behind your comments just because you're No 1 on civleague. In addition, you got no manners and you're almost always condescentding in your posts,.

Let me put it this way. I couldn't care less. Being best at playing duels doesn't make you the best all-round civ player.

 

[tommynt]

Let me put it this way. I couldn't care less. Being best at playing duels doesn't make you the best all-round civ player.

Funny that
a) I never stated I was best
b) I played these "open FFAs" often enough and winning them was WAY more easy then winning a duel vs some1 decent

In addition, you got no manners and you're almost always condescentding in your posts,.

says the no1 spammer ...

Maybe stick to discussion?
The point is:
Even when GS are op, well why not just get them?

 

[Silverfuturist]

It's obvious that he is right. Only plaing north-south, west-east duel is just tr
uly boring. We have been through this before. I'll rather be bad than to waste my time only playing duel on open maps. Jesus, you even play duel with first timers and noobs on CL. Where is the fun?

That variety is a good thing is beyond your comprehension i reckon. That fits perfectly with your less than average intelligent comments you leave on CFC. The worst thing of it all, is that you think that you have leverage behind your comments just because you're No 1 on civleague. In addition, you got no manners and you're almost always condescentding in your posts,.

Let me put it this way. I couldn't care less. Being best at playing duels doesn't make you the best all-round civ player.

Yea, I think Tommynt is a bit of a duel junky... but he has played several teamers with me, he plays diff settings including industrial and medieval starts. When I see somebody can figure out how to play in any era for teamer and duels, I tend to think they can understand settings like fractal FFA. Classical starts are similar enough to ancient, the transition isn't too hard IMHO.. the later eras however...

Many skirmish maps have chokepoints in long mountain ranges, yesterday I played a long 3vs3 where we stuck our cities in the mountains and held the line for 8 hours even with nukes were flying for many turns, it was higher techs like modern armour, helicoptors, rocket artillary that finally ended it. Game was sooo long, I feel physically beat up...

 

[donhenriko]

Its allways a big problem when people playing only bads talk about stratgic stuff, sure playing bad works when playing bads - do we have to discuss that?

What about sticking to the subject yourself, instead of saying that everyone is bad?

You're inability to see that you're constantly being condescending just proves my point. You're a douch,.

 

[donhenriko]

Funny that
a) I never stated I was best
b) I played these "open FFAs" often enough and winning them was WAY more easy then winning a duel vs some1 decent



says the no1 spammer ...

Maybe stick to discussion?
The point is:
Even when GS are op, well why not just get them?

I dont spam. The comment which was removed by the moderators in this thread was CS braging about how secure the Civleague server is. I only defend NQ in face of your ridiculous comments.

 

[donhenriko]

Yea, I think Tommynt is a bit of a duel junky... but he has played several teamers with me, he plays diff settings including industrial and medieval starts. When I see somebody can figure out how to play in any era for teamer and duels, I tend to think they can understand settings like fractal FFA. Classical starts are similar enough to ancient, the transition isn't too hard IMHO.. the later eras however...

Many skirmish maps have chokepoints in long mountain ranges, yesterday I played a long 3vs3 where we stuck our cities in the mountains and held the line for 8 hours even with nukes were flying for many turns, it was higher techs like modern armour, helicoptors, rocket artillary that finally ended it. Game was sooo long, I feel physically beat up...

In teamers or duels you only have one opponent to care about. The cost-benefit analysis of any move truly changes when you have to incorporate the actions of more opponents. I.E. Duel-ish warfare in the beginning of the game against your neighbor in an FFA may prove very detrimental in the long run for your tech output; causing you to lag behind other players in tech. This will happen even though you eventually win the "duel-ish" war with your neighbor given that it costs alot to kill him.

I a duel both players have to build units so "lagging behind in tech" is not an issue. teamer is also similar