Great unknown Generals in History

[Sovin nai]

If you want to stop the WWI debate, then here's one;
Field Marshal Suchet. He was one of the French commanders in the Peninsula during the Peninsular War. He held onto his territory almost into the end of the war. He managed to hold down an entire Anglo-Allied Army. He also managed to subdue more than he started out with. Can any other Peninsular general claim more than that? In fact, most were destroyed immediately, and their military careers ruined.

 

[Steph]

Field Marshal, or Feldmarshal, are British or German rank.
In fact "Maréchal de camp", which would be the closest translation for Field Marshal, was an Ancient regime rank, equivalent to Brigade General.

The proper name is "Maréchal de France", (simply Marshal, no Field in front of it). Note also that although it is considered the highest "rank", it is not a rank.
The highest rank is actually "Général de division" (MajorGeneral, 3 stars). Marshal of France is not a rank, but a state dignity.
Général d'Armée (5 stars), or Général de Corps d'Armée (4 stars), are according to regulation "Général de division", but appointed to a rank and position where they command larger formation.

Other trivia: Marshals have 7 stars, Generals have 1 to 5 stars, but there is no rank with 6 stars

 

[Adler17]

Okay, let's stop that discussion about the start of ww1. However you're exaggerating the words of the ultimatum, sovin nal. Compare it more with the unltimatum to remove Bin Laden and his Al Quaida from Afghanistan shortly before the invasion.

Adler

 

[ParkCungHee]

Other trivia: Marshals have 7 stars, Generals have 1 to 5 stars, but there is no rank with 6 stars

How can you have 7 stars? This is the problem with trying to convert ranks...

 

[Steph]

How can you have 7 stars? This is the problem with trying to convert ranks...

You start with 1, then add another, then another, then another, then another, then another, and finish with the last one.

To compare France with US:

NATO designation - France - USA

OF-10
Maréchal de France, 7 stars

General of the army, 5 stars

OF-9
Général d'armée, 5 stars

General, 4 stars

OF-8
Général de corps d'armée, 4 stars

Lieutenant General, 3 stars

OF-7
Général de division, 3 stars

Major General, 2 stars

OF-6
Général de brigade, 2 stars

Brigadier General, 1 star

OF-5
Colonel

Colonel

 

[Clausewitzian]

I wish I could find some more information about them. I've only recently begun to put serious time into researching military tactics. What armies primarily used them?

Lol, well, let's see, was it the Germans, the Germans or the Germans? These are the tactics, and most especially the changes in command doctrine they require, developed in WWI, that would make the Wehrmacht the force it was in WW2. They, more than anything else, were what gave the Germans their huge edge over all other comers at the beginning of WW2.

It was a french Captain by the name of Laffargue, who first came up with it during WWI, just like in the interbellum it was the brits who first came up with the ideas of modern tank warfare (though on this forum I've learnt that the french were also busy on that front). However, it was the Germans who understood the value of his ideas and who were the first to actually implement them on a large scale, using von Hutiers expansion on the ideas as a template. Fortunately for everyone non-german, by the time of the german implementation of infiltration tactics in WWI, it was too late. The Western Allies had a couple of nasty surprises of their own in the wings.

In WWI, a war dominated by the pointless throwing away of lives in human waves of ridiculous numbers, people who actually used their brains to come up with solutions deserve the highest acclaim. So do the Germans for having the guts to completely retrain their army to accomodate these tactics.

Though infiltration tactics was never a part of allied doctrine in WWI, the having of large numbers of tanks meant that in practice they too had their own version of infiltration tactics available by the time of the german switch. This was one of the things that would prevent the adoption of armored spearheads in the interbellum; tanks already had a war proven infantry function.

 

[ParkCungHee]

You start with 1, then add another, then another, then another, then another, then another, and finish with the last one.

To compare France with US:

NATO designation - France - USA

OF-10
Maréchal de France, 7 stars

General of the army, 5 stars

OF-9
Général d'armée, 5 stars

General, 4 stars

OF-8
Général de corps d'armée, 4 stars

Lieutenant General, 3 stars

OF-7
Général de division, 3 stars

Major General, 2 stars

OF-6
Général de brigade, 2 stars

Brigadier General, 1 star

OF-5
Colonel

Colonel

I know its just the thing that our system doesn't even go past Five-Stars. Even the General of the Armies isn't a 6 star. So a Seven star is...thats higher then a Reichsmarschall!

 

[Adler17]

A Feldmarschall in the German army was the highest rank until 1945. He had 5 stars. As the Nazis wanted Göring to be the highest ranking officer they reinvented the rank of a Reichsmarschall (originally in medievel times a rank given to officers to fulfill a certain task for the Reich. Thus it was only given for the time they needed), as several more Generalfeldmarschälle were nominated. However in some armies there was an even higher rank, someway similar to a Reichsmarschall, the Generalissimus. This rank however was only more a title for the CiC. As such he was only given to important marshals like Suworow or Wallenstein or mostly dictators like Stalin, Franco and Kim Il Sung. When Hitler took the command also the rank of the Reichsmarschall became mostly irrelevant.
Today Germany has no Feldmarschall. The highest rank is the general with 4 stars. However as such a rank was only given in times of (great) wars and because of the lack of a 5 stars general this rank can be revived.
The last German 5 stars officer was Großadmiral Dönitz, btw.

Adler

 

[ParkCungHee]

Right, but a Reichsmarschall is equivelent to the Non-existant rank of a 6-star general.

A five star general in the United States is called a "General of the Armies". Everyone who recieved that title was a commander in WWII:Marshall, MacArthur, Eisenhower, Hap Arnold (The Airforce was still technically part of the Army in WWII), and Omar Bradley. There is a rank above this General of the Armies which only went to Pershing, and retroactively to Washington. There was a bit of confusion when they made General of the Army, a general of the Armies outranked them, but didn't carry more stars. So Pershing was still a four star general, and Washington still a one star general.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

States is called a "General of the Armies". Everyone who recieved that title was a commander in WWII:Marshall, MacArthur, Eisenhower, Hap Arnold (The Airforce was still technically part of the Army in WWII), and Omar Bradley. There is a rank above this General of the Armies which only went to Pershing, and retroactively to Washington. There was a bit of confusion when they made General of the Army, a general of the Armies outranked them, but didn't carry more stars. So Pershing was still a four star general, and Washington still a one star general.

Along those lines, we also have an Admiral of the Fleet which only exists during times of war, our five-star admiral. The rank of Admiral of the Navy, or a Six-star Admiral, was only held by George Dewey during the Spanish-American War, awarded because of his stunning victory at Manila Bay.

 

[ParkCungHee]

So the Army can never have an equivelent officer to the navy?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

So the Army can never have an equivelent officer to the navy?

Do you mean admirals? There are 1-4 star admirals, too, just as there are 1-4 star generals.

The equivalents between Army-Navy are as follows:

1 star - Brigadier General - Rear Admiral, Lower Half
2 star - Major General - Rear Admiral, Upper Half
3 star - Lt. General - Vice Admiral
4 star - General - Admiral
5 star (wartime only) - General of the Army - Admiral of the Fleet
Special - General of the Armies - Admrial of the Navy

 

[ParkCungHee]

But as I said, even though the General of the Armies is a higher rank, it is not considered equivelent to a higher number of stars, due to a technicality. If Admiral of the Navy is equivelent to a six star General, then it would outrank a General of the Armies.

 

[7ronin]

Pershing was "General of the Armies" the insignia of which consisted of four gold stars. Marshall, MacArthur, Eisenhower, Arnold, and Bradley held the rank of "General of the Army" the insignia of which is five silver stars.

The Navy equivalent of "General of the Army" is "Fleet Admiral." There have been four: Leahy, King, Nimitz, and Halsey. Dewey held the rank of "Admiral of the Navy" and his insignia consisted of four stars. The U.S. Congress in writing the public law which established the rank of Fleet Admiral did not specify whether or not Admiral of the Navy was either junior to or senior to the rank of Fleet Admiral although it did state that Fleet Admiral is "the highest grade in the Navy."

George Washington was a Lieutenant General (not a Brigadier). At the time of his service general officer ranks were not distinguished by stars.

The public law establishing the ranks of General of the Army and Fleet Admiral was repealed in 1956 so technically these ranks no longer exist.

 

[Ambidexter]

When Dewey was made Admiral of the Navy, the highest rank in the U.S. Navy was Admiral (four stars). The legislation authorizing Dewey's promotion made him one rank higher than an Admiral and his rank was considered equivalent of the Royal Navy's Admiral of the Fleet. After Dewey's death in 1917, the rank lapsed.

 

[7ronin]

When Dewey was made Admiral of the Navy, the highest rank in the U.S. Navy was Admiral (four stars). The legislation authorizing Dewey's promotion made him one rank higher than an Admiral and his rank was considered equivalent of the Royal Navy's Admiral of the Fleet. After Dewey's death in 1917, the rank lapsed.

The legislation establishing the rank of Admiral of the Navy consists of just the following:

"CHAP 378 - An act creating the office of Admiral of the Navy.
Be it enacted by the Senate and the House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the President is hereby authorized to appoint, by selection and promotion, an Admiral of the Navy, who shall not be placed upon the retired list except upon his own application; and whenever such office shall be vacated by death or otherwise the office shall cease to exist.
Approved, March 2, 1899."

There is nothing in there about rank equivalency or his rank being higher than anyone else. If you read between the lines you find though that by not having to retire he becomes senior to all other U.S. Naval Officers.

 

[Ambidexter]

Considering that the highest rank until then was Admiral, there would have been no reason to make Dewey two ranks higher than anyone else. One rank higher was sufficient.

The law didn't specify what Dewey's rank was equivalent to in other navies. However, when he visited Britain, he was treated as the equivalent of a Royal Navy Admiral of the Fleet.