Great unknown Generals in History

[Sovin nai]

It is a bit unfair to compare all German chancellors with Bismarck. Even Bismarck could not have prevented the end of the Russian alliance for much longer. Or the hatred of king Edward VII. against all German and especially Wilhelm, who was Vicky's darling. The catastrophe of 1914 was there because NO single diplomat or politician was really able. In all nations.

True, however if you really want to get into reasons, it was because the then Kaiser decided that no matter what, he wanted a chunk of France. If he had listened to Bismark, and let the Franco-Prussian War stand as just a victory, like they did with the war with Austria, the French would have not been as mad, and wouldn't have tried to get everyone on their side. As their side would be with the Germans, most likely. Even if they didn't do the same as the Austrians, they still would be more like a bystander, and they wouldn't try to get the Russians on their side, so they would be a bystander too. In short, Serbia would be crushed by half of Europe, if the assasination even took place. The assasination happened because of the support of Russia, and if they didn't have that, they wouldn't have gone through with their plan.

 

[Clausewitzian]

> In reply to Adler

Maybe so, but after Bismark the quality of his successors, in combination with the Kaiser, went right down the drain. Imagine allowing things to go so far that Great Britain, desperately seeking allies and wanting Germany to be the one, actually went over to the French instead, was a blunder of epic proportions. The Morocco crisis, and Agadir, stupidity on an amazing level. They couldn't have done worse unless they'd actually wanted these great powers arrayed against them.

As for Kaiser Wilhelm II, he is considered to be the all round worst of a prety bad lot. Bismark resigned to make a statement, with the intention of being asked back. Wilhelm saw that as an excellent opportunity to rid himself of his politically astute chancellor. Well, the rest, as they say, is history...

 

[Serutan]

Back on topic : Konstantin K. Rokossovsski - He may have been the best combat commander in the Red Army during WWII. Not to mention having being willing to stand up to Stalin over strategy...

 

[Sovin nai]

Back on topic : Konstantin K. Rokossovsski - He may have been the best combat commander in the Red Army during WWII. Not to mention having being willing to stand up to Stalin over strategy...

BEST?? What about Zhukov? Or the other commanders in Stalingrad, or Kursk? They did better than him more often than not. Zhukov was one of the best generals in the Soviet Union, if not the best, and he was the brains behind the comeback of the Reds after Hitler's suprise attack.

As for Kaiser Wilhelm II, he is considered to be the all round worst of a prety bad lot. Bismark resigned to make a statement, with the intention of being asked back. Wilhelm saw that as an excellent opportunity to rid himself of his politically astute chancellor. Well, the rest, as they say, is history...

That, I agree with. However, not all of the other chancellors that suceeded Bismark were horrible, they just were compared to the Iron Chancellor himself. Unfortunately, the situation needed excellence, not merely being qualified for the job. Only Bismark could have provided that excellence.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

BEST?? What about Zhukov? Or the other commanders in Stalingrad, or Kursk? They did better than him more often than not. Zhukov was one of the best generals in the Soviet Union, if not the best, and he was the brains behind the comeback of the Reds after Hitler's suprise attack.

To bad he screwed up and caused such heavy casualties at Berlin. But I can forgive him, he saved Moscow.

 

[Sovin nai]

To bad he screwed up and caused such heavy casualties at Berlin. But I can forgive him, he saved Moscow.

He did not cause heavy causalties in Moscow. He was in favor of surrounding Moscow and starving it out, but Stalin told him to take it or face the NKVD. Hard choice.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

He did not cause heavy causalties in Moscow. He was in favor of surrounding Moscow and starving it out, but Stalin told him to take it or face the NKVD. Hard choice.

Dont you mean Berlin?

 

[Sovin nai]

Yes, sorry, mixed up my capital cities of dictatorships.

 

[aelf]

Re Bismark and France, the prussian army at the time was field proven and second to none, as Bismark well knew. The prussians had carefully prepared for the war and were starting to gain in the war technology tree, as they proved in their war with the Austrians, where they smashed a vastly superior army. The french completely failed to see the war coming and their post napoleonic army, unprepared and unproven, was great in name only. They were probably still mobilizing when it was all over.

I don't think Bismark had too many nightmares over it. He needed the war to achieve his ulterior motive, the unification of germany, and was willing to roll with the risks involved. In fact, Bismark went out of his way to make it all happen in the first place, it was the culmination of years of planning. A truly remarkable man.

WWI is a completely different kettle of fish. That was never meant to happen, it was not the result of a carefully prepared political plan, with all the parts in place. Once it happened, a carefully prepared plan was followed that was military in nature only. The political aspects were missing, as they were not with Bismark. When the von Schlieffen plan was conceived, there was no trans Siberian railine, and there was no entante codiale between Great Britain and France. The german military had little in the way of options other than to follow their dated plan, and they almost got away with it. Actually, they believed they would get away with it, just as Bismark did. In this sense, WWI disproves your case.

The hindsight argument is out of place here, as we know, within reason, what the people of the time were thinking, from contemporary documents.

Bismark couldn't know he would win in the sense that nobody knows the future...But it was a lot more than mere hindsight that led him to the gamble.

I don't know why you're making it sound like I'm arguing for something when I only mused for a few lines. Asymetrical response, eh?

Anyway, even Adler, the proud German that he is, agrees that Bismark's decision carried significant risks. The Iron Chancellor was certainly a bold statesman. And I didn't say that he gambled with the benefit of hindsight. That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Adler17]

Sovin nai, When Edward VII. became king, he, who hated Germany and especially his nephew, was a leading force of the alliance with France. A hatred even Bismarck would have been unable to bypass. Only after his death there was hope to break the Franco- British alliance. And there were chances of an Anglo- German treaty to solve all questions in 1914. But then a Serb came...

Anyway Bismarck had good chances to make peace with France in 1870. But France decided after Sedan to fight further, even though their main armies were captured. Bismarck was now unable to make a milder peace. Also the Alsace was populated mostly by German speakers and was annexed about 200 years before by France. And concerning the long hatress between the brother sates and no people like Briand and Stresemann or de Gaulle and Adenauer and no need to form an alliance, which was even in that days seen as a very important one if the historical reasons made that impossible, it is unlikely that France would be on the German side.

Zhukow is one of the most overrated soldiers in history. He was more dangerous for his men than the enemy.

Adler

 

[ParkCungHee]

Zhukov recieved his reputation because he was the highest ranking commander. There are countless poorly know generals that we a match for him or superior.

Add Takijiro Onishi to the list. IMO one of the few Japanese leaders to think outside the box (of course, this became established as an entirely new box to limit thinking in) and as his death showed, an extremely brave commander who wouldn't order his men to do anything he wasn't prepared for.

 

[Sovin nai]

The population of Alsace-Lorraine never considered themselves completely German. In fact, many of the volunteers for the French Army in the early days of the war were from there. Bismarck had a chance to come away with just the French people's slight emnity, if that. If the French weren't so eager to come to a war to win back their territory, they might not have even tried to challenge Germany by getting the Russians and English and Italians on their side. Without the French encouragement, the Russians might have left the treaty standing. The Serbs probably wouldn't have assasinated the Archduke, and even if they did, they might have accepted the ultimatum. The only reason that they didn't in the actual turn of events was because the Russians told them not too. The whole course of history would be different.

 

[Clausewitzian]

What, and your implication that responses should be symmetric, that makes sense?

On Zhukov, even I've heard of him. And my knowledge of russian generals of WWII borders on the disgraceful. Lol, I'd say just about any russian WWII general other than Zhukov is unknown. Ah, but which of them were great?

I vaguely remember reading someplace that Zhukov retaught the japanese to respect the bear. Gave the germans a drubbing too, on occaission. Surely he couldn't have been a bad commander, even if he wasn't the greatest?

 

[Sovin nai]

Zhukov kept the Japanese of the Russian's backs for the duration of the war. Sometime in the '30s, his heavily outnumbered corps made a fool of an entire Japanese army. If it hadn't been for the fact that they weren't really at war, just a border struggle, he could have expelled the Japanese from China. Until the end of the war, when Stalin kept on pushing for more land, immediately, Zhukov managed most of his victories without unbearable losses.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

The Serbs probably wouldn't have assasinated the Archduke, and even if they did, they might have accepted the ultimatum. The only reason that they didn't in the actual turn of events was because the Russians told them not to. The whole course of history would be different.

I doubt that. Serbia wanted to be a Great Power like Autria-Hungary, to unite the Balkans. Autria-Hungary was already dealing with the rise of Germany, it didn't want another power in their backyard; they would have opposed the Serbians at every turn. Even if it came to the point of ultamatum, A-H's demands, if met, would have basically deprived Serbia of it's nationhood. Given the Serb's ambitions above, there's no chance they would have gone for that, no matter what the Czar has to say about it.

 

[Gladi]

Zhukov kept the Japanese of the Russian's backs for the duration of the war. Sometime in the '30s, his heavily outnumbered corps made a fool of an entire Japanese army. If it hadn't been for the fact that they weren't really at war, just a border struggle, he could have expelled the Japanese from China. Until the end of the war, when Stalin kept on pushing for more land, immediately, Zhukov managed most of his victories without unbearable losses.

Aye aye. First showing of what would be tank warfare. Of course as with 1905 people in the West did not care much.

 

[Sovin nai]

I doubt that. Serbia wanted to be a Great Power like Autria-Hungary, to unite the Balkans. Autria-Hungary was already dealing with the rise of Germany, it didn't want another power in their backyard; they would have opposed the Serbians at every turn. Even if it came to the point of ultamatum, A-H's demands, if met, would have basically deprived Serbia of it's nationhood. Given the Serb's ambitions above, there's no chance they would have gone for that, no matter what the Czar has to say about it.

No, actually they were about to accept the ultimatum, whatever came from it, even going so far to prepare a messenger, when the Russian ambassador came. The Russian ambassador completely convinced the Serbians to resist the Austrians. If it hadn't been for the pressure of him, they would have succumbed to the Austrians before the war started.

 

[Clausewitzian]

Indeed, what the Austrians or the Serbians thought was of little import.

The Serbs were backed by the Russians. If the Russians were willing to go to war, no way were the Serbs going to back away.

The Austrians were backed by the Germans. If the Germans were willing to go to war, no way was Austria going to back down.

It is what the players behind the scenes were up to, that decided things. In this case, there was an intricate German plot going on to discredit the Russians and break their influence in the region, hinging on the expectation that the Russians would back down from war. The assasination was a gift from heaven, the perfect excuse. The Germans had completely misread the situation. When the Russians declined to play along, a contingency the Germans rather foolishly had not politically prepared for, things got completely out of hand, and the military took over...

Nations playing chicken with no exit strategy.

 

[Sovin nai]

The problem was, that although the politicians hadn't prepared for that eventuality, the military had, all too well...

 

[Adler17]

Indeed it was a mistake not to integrate the German speaking minority of the Alsace into the Reich. However the other French proposal, to take Indochina from them, was not possible that time as Germany had in no way the possibilities to maintain colonies in 1871. Ten years later it might have been acceptable. However the point is that the French revenge was hardly to stop. Even if Bismarck was successful with his policy and the French had only to accept the German unification they would not have really done so before another war. I doubt that the revenge thinking was really lower in that case, too.
Serbia also did not accept the ultimatum as parts of the government were members of the Black Hand. So indeed the government knew about the plot and the prime minister even tried to warn the Austrians, but that warning was so vague, he feared for his life, that it was not seen as such until it was too late.
Clausewitzian, Germany backed up Austria but did not want a war. They even withdrew the card blanche when they saw that Austria was going for war. But then it was too late. Indeed Germany and Britain are the most tragic players in the game. Both were not interested in a war, both were unable to force their allies to go to the table again instead on the battlefield. And both were cought in the alliances.

Adler