Great Wonders Elimination Thread

[JesseS]

Bolshoi Theatre [17-3=14] I will build this one in a culture game if I can and have nothing better to do, but I don't think it's particularly powerful. 2 free civics can be great...but it always seems to give me useless and cheap civics I didn't even want. By the time I end up finishing Bolshoi, there are usually a lot of dead-end civics that I have unlocked but have no intention of researching, like Capitalism, Nuclear Program, Totalitarianism, Class Struggle, sometimes Divine Right/Reformed Church or Naval Tradition. Bolshoi invariably ends up giving me 2 of these. The extra slots are okay, but there aren't even as many with this as Broadway/Hermitage/Sydney Opera House.

Statue of Liberty [14+1=15] I've never won a diplomatic victory (seems boring and slow to me), but this is very obviously a key wonder for it. 4 diplomatic points is literally 20% of your total points and will save a dull 30-60 turns of waiting until the next World Congress.

Alhambra [3]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [14]
Broadway [6]
Casa de Contratación [11]
Chichen Itza [10]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [19]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [6]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Machu Picchu [3]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [22]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [23]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [19]
Petra [14]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [16]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [7]
Venetian Arsenal [5]

 

[MrTans]

Mausoleum at Halicarnassus - Love this wonder. I don't necessarily think it's the best of the best, but it's so much fun to build for the potential insane coastal yield tiles and you can usually get it as the AI rarely ever builds it

Great Zimbabwe - Very awkward requirements to actually build the wonder, and even then it's just underwhelming unless you have a signifcant amount of bonus resources

Alhambra [3]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [14]
Broadway [6]
Casa de Contratación [11]
Chichen Itza [10]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [19]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [3]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Machu Picchu [3]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [23]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [19]
Petra [14]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [16]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [7]
Venetian Arsenal [5]

 

[Jewelrunna]

Alhambra [4] (3 + 1)
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [14]
Broadway [6]
Casa de Contratación [11]
Chichen Itza [10]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [19]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [3]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Machu Picchu [ELIMINATED] (3 - 3)
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [23]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [19]
Petra [14]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [16]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [7]
Venetian Arsenal [5]

Alhambra [4] (3 + 1): Not sure why this wonder’s fallen so far, two amenities isn’t nothing, and the military policy card is just inherently good. It’s probably the least impactful of the four policy card wonders, but there are still strong military policies for science and domination games that this wonder gives you extra flexibility for. It’s not game changing, but extra policies are just inherently good.

Machu Picchu [ELIMINATED] (3 - 3): I feel like there’s a distinction to be made about wonder viability, especially when talking about wonders that the AI consistently beats you to. Every wonder is inherently a competition, and even wonders that are normally pretty reliable you can miss out on. However, there’s a difference between that and wonders that the AI will consistently beeline, beat you to, and end up being production traps. Machu Picchu falls squarely in the latter category. The AI will consistently finish production of this wonder because they rush it, often even before you finish researching Engineering. And this isn’t simply an anecdote, which of course would be unreasonable; this is a well documented pattern by a large body of players. Now yes, I have built Machu Picchu before, and yes, it’s quite strong when you get it. But if this wonder is competitive for the player in roughly 1/10 games, the wonder simply isn’t viable. And at that point, it doesn’t matter how good it’s effects are.

 

[bengalryan9]

Alhambra [4]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [14]
Broadway [6]
Casa de Contratación [8] (11-3) Unless the map generator helps you out with a conveniently placed continental divide, it's pretty tough to take advantage of it's continental bonuses, especially since it only works in cities with governors. I do like the extra governor titles, though even those might not always be as useful as you'd hope. Also not a fan that it has to go adjacent to the government plaza.
Chichen Itza [10]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [19]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [3]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [23]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [19]
Petra [15] (14+1) Petra's awesome, and it's also surprisingly easy to build. The AI seems to favor Jebel and then Pyramids in it's desert cities. I almost always build Petra, and I almost always build it quite late (even on deity).
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [16]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [7]
Venetian Arsenal [5]

 

[lotrmith]

St Basil - I don't often build this in competitive games, but when I do get it in casual games it sure is fun. It is also extremely powerful for relics.

Sankore - Domestic trade routes are generally useful in the early game. They become significantly worse as the game progresses, and this guy is a midgame Medieval wonder. And even then, you generally want one city sending out a bunch of domestic routes to consolidate growth and production, not every city sending one domestic route each to a single destination just to get 2 science and 1 faith each.


Alhambra [4]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [14]
Broadway [6]
Casa de Contratación [8]
Chichen Itza [10]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [19]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [3]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [23]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [19]
Petra [15]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [4]
Venetian Arsenal [5]

 

[hhhhhh]

OK let's ignore Ruhr Valley for a while. But regarding Big Ben @TCBB - you can build it with 15000 gold in hand if you actively trade with AI, and then it gains you 7500 gold which is enough for you to buy space ports (and you can buy 2-3 of those). So it's simply that good (making you not need Ruhr Valley). And Oxford is also about timing - you can time it to unlock information era tech whose eureka are incredibly hard to obtain (similarly on timing Bolshoi theatre below), while for Ruhr Valley you have to build it early and have long enough games after that to profit from it.

Bolshoi Theatre [15] (14+1) @JesseS's complaint is kinda justified. If you only build it in your culture game (so culture is high and production is relatively low) then it's not as useful. But it's a much better wonder in science victories where your production is high.

Of course, you need to finish cheap leaf civic like Divine Right/Reformed Church or Naval Tradition first (and in culture games Theocracy is much better than other Governments BTW, even better than the Tier 3's - discount on faith purchase, no Tier 3 penalty etc.).

Another reason that you should finish these leaf civic is that they give you nimbleness on changing policy. Late game many of them can be finished in one turn and the net gain from changing policies are always better than the cost.

Then you can time it so you finish this wonder with only 3 civic available - Mass Media, Mobilization, Conservation - all are very important civics, or if you finish Conservation before you build that wonder, you will have some chance to unlock Culture Heritage with Bolshoi.

University of Sankore [1] (4 - 3) Even if there is a wonder, with 710 production and no placement restriction, give you 3 science, 1 faith, 2 Great Science Point and 2 science for every trade route of yours, so that it's strictly better than University of Sankore, it will still be a pretty bad one and you should not bother build it - mid-game you have at most 10 trade route so it at most give you 23 science and 710 production is worth like 3 campus and 3 library, which gives 4 more GSP and if you know how to place campus, more science.

you generally want one city sending out a bunch of domestic routes to consolidate growth and production, not every city sending one domestic route each to a single destination just to get 2 science and 1 faith each.

This is not true BTW. For domestic trade routes, in Civ V the destination get the yield, and in Civ VI the source get the yield. Yeah confusing I know.

Alhambra [4]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [6]
Casa de Contratación [8]
Chichen Itza [10]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [19]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [3]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [23]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [19]
Petra [15]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [1]
Venetian Arsenal [5]

 

[enKage]

Final breath before Sankore is eliminated
UoS +1
At the time I can build Oxford, I get more science per turn from Sankore than I would get from Oxford.
More defence on UoS in spoiler, suprisingly hard placement was not mentioned often in downvotes

Spoiler :

There is a lot of misunderstanding how Sankore works, so I would debate on some wrong in my opinion reasons for downvote

All quotes from previous downvotes

“Domestic trade routes are generally useful in the early game. They become significantly worse as the game progresses.”

Domestic routes grow stronger as game progresses. More districts in destination cities = more yields. You don't have specialist slots early on, later you have many slots, lategame domestic routes means a lot of food to work specialist, so it is hidden culture/science/gold/hammer/food/faith yield from trade route. More hammers needed for construction as game progress = more need for domestic trade route granting food and hammers. There is a short window at democracy, when international routes may compete and in fact be better (but at the same time you boost AI’s production significantly), but you cannot keep +4 food/hammers with other gov type. A matter of preferred playstyle.

“you generally want one city sending out a bunch of domestic routes to consolidate growth and production, not every city sending one domestic route each”

This is pure nonsense. You want trade routes from periferial cities to a central hub with maximum number of districts (and Sankore), to maximize growth and hammers. You want to reach pop10 in all cities as soon as possible, later just use surplus food to work specialists / mines. The only exception would be Great Zimbabwe case.

“other civilisations also receive science for their trade routes to Sankore, so it’s a strange case of a wonder (the only one in the game?) which actively helps your competitors when you build it”

This active help is 1 science (+ diff multiplier) per route and if AI sends more than 2 routes to Sankore, it is very exceptional. Other words: you get 2 science, deity Ai gets 1,6 science, still you get more. The real help for your competitors is using 2/2 4/4 food/hammers routes to AI. You get 6 hammers, AI 10,8 hammers. It is so great to help AI build BigBen, right?

“running internal trade routes comes at the cost of drastically reduced income”

When you use bonus food to grow and work plantations / specialists, the difference magically disappears or is heavily reduced

"Sankore has opportunity cost of sending trade routes to that city"
It is not a cost, it is a gain. Some people prefer international trade, some domestic trade, anyway not a chance domestic trade is worse than international. Note also not listed benefit - surplus food means working specialist. Removing Cree buff to food, it is still 5 specialist, what translates to another +9 science and +6 culture per route (4 science 4 culture 4 gold without tier3 building)

Sangkore

• enKage
• Nov 4, 2019

Note: Cree ability gold per pature is not on the list, because it is for reciever city. To remove Cree influence, substract 5 food from these routes.


Sidenote on placement:
UoS doesn't have to be built next to the campus of the same city. You can build it in city A placing it next to the campus of city B

Oxford -3
I get more science per turn from Sankore, also Broadway is better.
I am not the kind of person who get blinded by percentage value without checking what it really does (20% sounds so great!). So I am shocked with rising Oxford and declining Broadway. I am not a fan of Broadway too, but situation is a little strange.

Detailed approach for the most overrated ATM wonder in spoilers

Spoiler :

So I accuse Oxford of being highly overrated, and this is why:

1) placement.

Oxford requires flat plain or grassland (for comparison Broadway any kind of flat terrain) and with campus having adjacencies from mountains, geotherms and reefs it is kind of limited placement (again, theatres don’t get those campus limitations)

2) Yields

So let us imagine very strong science city. Let it be 5 adjecency doubled to 10 science, all buildings with great scientists buffs for total of 21, doubled by card to 42. So we have 52 from campus. Now let us drop Pingala there, co we can get more science from pop, and a city is quite big, 20 pop. That is 32 more science. Because we are very very generous, we have zoo there and some terrain features for another 10 science. And because we are crazy generous, we are suzereins of Babylon and have all theatre slots filled, as well as Palace slot and Oxford slots for another 10 science. Our city generates 104 science and remember we were very very generous. 20% is…..

21 science rounded up.
Oh! I forgot trade routes! You can send all your trade routes from this city to ally to get additional 4 science or so. Big WOW to it.

Amazing! This is what Sankore gives in small empires (10 cities or so). Earlier. And dependless on size of cities.

I have just a proposal. Instead of saying +20% science, what sounds impressive, let's operate in numbers. But on average 15-20 beakers starting in industrial era does not sound so impressive

For comparison Broadway works similar – you would not run double yields cards (but you can for even more gain), but will get culture from great works, so it pretty equals at the level of district + population. But Broadway works very different in area from yields from tiles. While there is no science improvement except Sumeria and Alcazar (on which you must work very hard to get any science at all), there are plenty of civs having UI granting culture, special bow to China and Egypt here. There are more city states granting culture improvements or directly from districts. RapaNui is especially devastating here. There is also culture from pantheons. Culture from St basil. Culture from Kumasi worshipers (where are they now?). And so on. All that to get you closer to globalization. Summary: 20% culture will give more culture than you would get science from 20% science. Even when you don’t work culture double cards and work science double cards.

3) Free techs

You get 2 free techs. Purely random. It doesn’t matter if it is cheap tech left behind on your beeline or expensive one, doesn’t matter if you have eureka or not. Let me treat any technology as 2,5 eurekas, assuming eureka is 40% of tech cost. Oxford in the best case is worth 5 eurekas, in the worst – 3 eurekas. That doesn’t impress me much, as you would reliably get more eurekas from Great Library.
Broadway give only 1 civic inspiration, but it is guaranteed from atomic era, so always worth quite a lot of culture. OTOH AI likes Oxford, so you cannot delay it enough to unlock expensive techs.

4) Finally victory conditions

Domination / religious – you don’t care both
Science – probably Oxford > Broadway, but if you go for speedrun, you would skip Oxford anyway
Tourism – Oxford < Broadway. Broadway has more art slots and 2 of them are great music, which can be tripled with card. Also quicker social media for +50% tourism and globalization to speed up research to environmentalism.
Diplomatic – Oxford < Broadway. Getting seasteds for missing diplopoint is easier and doesn’t require any special boosts to get it on time. Getting missing point from global warming is harder and Broadway has its use here. And you want GWM civic earlier anyway, just to run projects decreasing pollution.

In 2 out of 5 victory conditions Broadway is better than Oxford. Oxford is probably better in 1.
BTW, why so many people behave like spaceship is the only possible victory condition?


I don’t like both wonders, both should leave soon, still I would usually take Broadway over Oxford in most games. And completely I don’t understand those Oxford hype

Alhambra [4]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [6]
Casa de Contratación [8]
Chichen Itza [10]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [19]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [3]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [23]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [16]
Petra [15]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [2]
Venetian Arsenal [5]

 

[bbbt]

Alhambra [5] 4 + 1 - I feel like I'm totally off the wavelength of some of the other folks here. First we're downvoting AoE wonders, and now policy card wonders!?

Definitely the weakest of the policy card wonders, but still there's more than enough decent military cards to warrant this. It allows you to run both Veterancy and Logistics for example in Merchant Republic. Effects that are a lot stronger than some of the remaining wonders. Plus it's not highly contested by the AI.

Chichen Itza [7] 10 - 3 - Fun for yield porn screenshots, but not a lot of practical value outside of like Pedro and Kupe. Even Bull Moose Teddy is gonna be chopping his jungles given their appeal penalty.

Alhambra [5]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [6]
Casa de Contratación [8]
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [19]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [3]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [23]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [16]
Petra [15]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [2]
Venetian Arsenal [5]

 

[cylenalag]

Forbidden City [20] (19+1) Speaking of card wonders, Forbidden City’s extra wild card slot essentially turns you into Greece for the modest price of 920 hammers! And if you are already Greek, now you are Greekier! An extra wild card slot in your policies can let you do extra card shenanigans and give you some nice combinations like getting both Scripture and Simultaneum while sparing another economic policy slot for something else when doing a faith economy game. AI does pursue it, but not too crazily. Can generally hard build it in a decent production city as soon as you get Printing, which should be early anyway.

Venetian Arsenal [2](5-3) While the extra great engineer points are nice, the main benefit of getting a second ship when you hard-build or buy a naval unit just seems lackluster. In even a naval-heavy game like Island Plates you will generally build a healthy navy early anyway and upgrade through the ages, just as you would with land units for both eurekas and common defense. Also 920 hammers and I generally don’t see the AI building it, so it does have that going for it too, just not enough NOT to be my downvote this round.

Alhambra [5]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [6]
Casa de Contratación [8]
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [3]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [23]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [16]
Petra [15]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [2]
Venetian Arsenal [2]

 

[Archon_Wing]

Upvote: Great Zimbabwe. 4= 3+1 It's a niche wonder but it can still be good when you find a good spot. It has real benefits most game, and better than some wonders left

Downvote: Oracle. 20= 23-3 While a good wonder, it's very overrated and does not deserve to be with the best-- it's never really a critical wonder. Yes it can be strong in some spots, but in reality it's really just adding an extra city's worth of GPP.

If your start has weak production or growth, it becomes much less effective vs expansion. Also rushing Grants come s with its own cost. You need to realize that GPP does not actually offer any immediate benefit until you actually recruit a GP. The other thing is that sometimes the AI goes crazy with the GPPs now. If you can take advantage of faith purchase, but for these reasons not a must-build wonder.


Alhambra [5]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [6]
Casa de Contratación [8]
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [4]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [20]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [16]
Petra [15]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [2]
Venetian Arsenal [2]

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

Alhambra [5]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [6]
Casa de Contratación [5]. (8-3) Outside of a niche strategy with Phoenicia, I never build this. It's limited in scope (requiring cities outside your continent and with governors). How many cities would this even apply to? I typically keep most of my governors in my core cities on my continent, and don't always unlock all 7 (and Amani is going to be in a city state anyways). Then there's even the space for it to begin with. My GP is usually in my plaza and there's typically a fight for real estate there already.
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [4]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [20]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [16]
Petra [16] (15+1) So maybe it's a bit of a shadow of its former self than Civ V days, but you can still create a robust, powerful city on inhospitable tiles with this. There's always a race to settle and find perfect spots, and sometimes all you are left is desert. This makes it so your city won't stagnate behind the rest.
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [2]
Venetian Arsenal [2]

 

[monikernemo]

Alhambra [5]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [3] (6 - 3)
Again too late to be useful. Free atomic era civics boost is not useful, likely that you have finished researching all atomic era civics before finishing.
Casa de Contratación [5]
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [4]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [16]
Oracle [20]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [17] (16 + 1)
Nah, I disagree with why Sankore >>> Oxford. And Oxford being sub 20 points prior to downvote is a testament to it being not overrated. In fact it is at a good placing.

Firstly Oxford is good when you build it early for the 20% science without doing anything extra, or very late into the space race.
It is good early because the RoI on production pays itself back in science in space race, its good late when space techs are expensive.

Secondly, you need to support Sankore city with Trade Routes. Its a non-trivial opportunity cost that people tend to forget.
You need to build commercial hubs or harbor which means using up one district slot.
I don't know about you, unless playing as Mali, commercial hubs are not that essential for me early game (because gold trading gives me is more efficient than building CHs!)
and I only build them after getting (possibly holy sites) and campuses (in space race) theater squares in appropriate cities.
And I build harbors first only if it is a coastal settlement.

Lastly, the argument on placement restriction is moot. Doesnt mean that a campus is near geotherms or mountain means that you cant find flat land spots.
Then i think the same can also be said about UoS, one has to settle near the desert and find good campus spots near the desert.

Petra [16]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [2]
Venetian Arsenal [2]

 

[Aurelesk]

Some wonders tend to work differently depending of the map size / number of civilizations.

Oracle is stronger when the map is smaller, for the same reason you are grabbing more Great People with smaller maps: the number of Great People are limited. If you play with 20 civilizations and there is only 21 Great Scientist, therefore there is around ~1 Great Scientist per civilization on average. On Duel maps? You can grab, at least, 10 of them if you go future era.

Therefore, all slots Wonders are going to face the same fate than the Oracle: "better in smaller size map". They are powerful if you can catch the Great Writers / Artists / Musician in the first place. Also, all slots wonders have some nice GPP too, which is useful (again) on smaller map setting. That is why Archeological Musueum is the way to go to most people: it is better than buying the Arts to AI (even if I find Arts less awful with time: buying Arts is also denying Culture / Tourism to competition).

Of course some "smaller map setting" wonders are so powerful that, even in bigger map settings they are still valuable. For example: the Mausoleum. You are catching less Great Engineer in bigger map, but that extra charge is so powerful that it is still very valuable.

The Great Library is kind in the middle. In smaller map setting, you build it for its slots and maybe some spare eureka, because you will chase the GPP and have the Pingoracle for the Great Scientist. In bigger map setting, you build it for all the Great Scientist you will no be able to have, and have free Eureka! in the process.

Casa de Contratación is different: it is stronger when the map is biggger. Not only because there is more continents so more plausible you could use the inner bonuses of the Wonder, but also because the Loyalty pressure could be a bigger issue. It is almost impossible to be stuck between two civilizations in Small map setting, but in bigger map settings? Yeah, Loyalty management can be a problem and you want those 3 extra Titles.

Also, there is some "bigger map setting" wonders that are so powerful that in smaller map settings they are valuable, like the Kilwa Kisiwani (that is maybe not that great on Duel / Tiny map with Deity Germany?).


Alhambra [5]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [3]
Casa de Contratación [5]
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [4]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [19]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [13] 16-3 I struggle with this wonder. Maybe I don't know how to use it properly. I saw in it huge potential but each time I failed to use it at full potential. You need to have an Faith pantheon, then found a Religion, then select Reliquaries / Itinerant Preachers before knowing if you are going to succeed the Relics startegy, then going to Monarchy, then build the Mont Saint Michel, then go for Theocracy, then buy the Apostles with a -45% faith discount, then let them die in mass for future Faith and Tourism, but being careful about area of conversion upon death, while sacrificing 4 early Titles for Moksha and his 2-promotions Apostles. This is an high investment deviating hugely from standard play with no assurance of reward.
There are some uses: you will end up to run out of good promotion, so you may end up to have trash Apostle only good to get killed with bad promotion to make the good one appear again. But it feels like an "All-In" strategy with no real-back up plan (except Cultural victory). I might be wrong, so feels free to correct me.
Oracle [20]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [17]
Petra [16]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [3] (2+1) Very niche indeed, but I feel it is too early for it to be eliminated. I found it more valuable with the new Diplomatic Quarter, as I can set up some huge internal Trade Route where I can recycle Magnus into +2 Food for internal Trade Route. It needs some planning, and need Magnus to stay in one place meaning delaying some Chopping. This is good in the growing phase, when you can't expand peacefully anymore, nor expand aggressively without risk (something happening in Deity).
Venetian Arsenal [2]

 

[Foulweather]

Alhambra [5]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [3]
Casa de Contratación [5]
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [4]
Hagia Sophia [10]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [20] (19+1) Mahabodhi comes early and is not hard to beeline, so I'm usually in a good position to get it if I've planned ahead enough to have woods near my Holy Site. The +4 Faith is a pretty good amount that early too (here is where I stare forlornly at Jebel Barkal, gone before its time). Depending on my needs, I either use the Apostles to complete my religion before some of the good beliefs are gone (looking at you, Tithe and Holy Order), or send them out converting if I need to smash a neighbor's religion early before they have their own Apostles out. In religious games I always try to build it, and in diplomatic games it's one of the three (almost) necessary wonders.
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [13]
Oracle [20]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [17]
Petra [16]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [3]
Venetian Arsenal [Eliminated, -1] (2-3) If you're playing naval dom, you probably have the strongest navy already by the time this is available in the Renaissance. You can also just slot in a card like Press Gangs or International Waters for a similar effect. I'm surprised this was still here.

 

[Drivingrevilo]

Alhambra [6] (5+1) Belatedly joining the attempt to keep Alhambra in. Extra policy cards are good, full stop. Even if military cards are probably the weakest type, I'd still prefer an extra one to some of the other wonders still remaining (e.g. to name just a few, Casa de C., Great Zimb., Univ. of Sank., Great Lib...).

Hagia Sophia [7] (10-3) I'm torn about Hagia Sophia. On the one hand, my personal style of playing religious victory is to get things done as quickly as possible – rush with missionaries, rush with Exodist of the Evangelists, and bam, the game is (hopefully) over well before the turn 150 mark. This leaves very little space for Hagia Sophia to make an impact: by the time it's completed, I've probably converted most of the map anyway. However, on the other hand I'm very aware that not everyone plays this 'how quickly can I rush?' type of game. And if you're doing a more leisurely religious victory, then I imagine Hagia Sophia does have time to make a meaningful impact. But in the end, I still went for the downvote because, even if you are doing a slower religious victory, there comes a point when actual conversion becomes much less effective than religious combat. +1 charge can only take you so far.


Alhambra [6] (5+1)
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [10]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [3]
Casa de Contratación [5]
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [4]
Hagia Sophia [7] (10-3)
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [20]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [13]
Oracle [20]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [17]
Petra [16]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [3]

 

[fantsu]

Alhambra [6]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [7] (10-3) No. Your filler city is just fine like that.
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [3]
Casa de Contratación [5]
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [4]
Hagia Sophia [7]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [20]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [13]
Oracle [20]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [17]
Petra [16]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [24] (23+1) Its the best one. So it gets my first upvote. Desert tile is easy to find when you play continents, and I only play those. Then you just win the game.
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [3]

 

[Noble Zarkon]

you generally want one city sending out a bunch of domestic routes to consolidate growth and production, not every city sending one domestic route each to a single destination just to get 2 science and 1 faith each.

This is not true BTW. For domestic trade routes, in Civ V the destination get the yield, and in Civ VI the source get the yield. Yeah confusing I know.

I think you're confused @hhhhhh - it's precisely because the source gets the yield that the strategy @lotrmith posted about works - you consolidate lots of trade routes in one city to help a new one get off the ground or to help an established one build a wonder.

Alhambra [7] 6+1 Free cards are some of the best wonders around, to mind the 4 that provide this should be top 10 although i acknowledge alhambra is the weakest of them.

Great Zimbabwe [1] 4-3 Just too situational for too little return to last much longer.

Alhambra [7]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [7] (10-3) No. Your filler city is just fine like that.
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [3]
Casa de Contratación [5]
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [16]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [1]
Hagia Sophia [7]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [20]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [13]
Oracle [20]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [17]
Petra [16]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [24]
Ruhr Valley [14]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [3]

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Ruhr Valley 14+1: I just like this wonder, and it sets up so nicely for most VCs perhaps save for RV or CV. Yes I get that it's not of much use if you are playing for super fast SVs (in the 150-200 turn range), but I generally don't do that because I love immersing myself in a typical game. Having a super productive powerhouse post turn 200 just works so well, be it if you need production for space related stuff, building jet bombers and GDRs, as well as pumping out projects. By no means an essential wonder, but very fun if you like high production numbers. Hope it doesn't go too soon.
Colosseum 16-3: I wasn't initially going to downvote this again, but seeing comments stating that this is a "top 5 wonder", and keeping in mind that this wonder actually WON the last elimination thread... well, I just have to downvote it again. This wonder is imo severely overrated. Amenities are almost never a problem these day (for me or in civ 6 in general), as I can get them from a number of sources (even the AI at as low as 2 gold per turn), and when I do need amenities (late game warmongering where I have high pop cities that suffer), this wonder has been doing jack all for me (amenities wise) since the classical era. And even then I can fix my amenities situation. The culture yield is what makes this good, but the problem with Colosseum remains as following: Opportunity cost, opportunity cost, opportunity cost - and a ludicrous one at that. If I fail to get it (Immortal/Deity, which happens for me around 1/3 to 1/2 time), I am stuck with a district slot wasted on THE worst district in the early game (perhaps the entire game). And I even have to build an arena as well! I am not a proponent of save scumming games, but losing out on the Colosseum after having plopped down an Entertainment District WITH an arena in one of my most central core cities... it just itches me to push that "load save"-button. Would have been a great wonder to go for if it didn't come with the ludicrous opportunity cost of an Entertainment Complex with an arena in it. I can manage losing out on the wonder itself, but I sure as hell don't want to be stuck with a useless Entertainment Complex.

Alhambra [7]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [7]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [3]
Casa de Contratación [5]
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [13]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [1]
Hagia Sophia [7]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [20]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [13]
Oracle [20]
Országház [12]
Oxford University [17]
Petra [16]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [24]
Ruhr Valley [15]
St. Basil's Cathedral [17]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [20]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [3]

 

[Civ Chemist]

@Aurelesk Reliquaries strategies are pretty useless in religious victories, since you don't really want to lose any religious units, but very powerful and arguably the fastest strategy for culture victories. So there is no need to go for Moksha early. You are going to kill your apostles as soon as possible anyway so the second promotion is useless. I would also pick missionary zeal (instead of holy order), the extra movement is just that powerful: You'll reach your enemies so much faster (no need to worry about losing religious pressure) and can hunt down enemy religious units much quicker. And after getting a few relics you'll have more than enough faith. Also try to build Mahabodhi and get a couple of apostles before finishing Mont St. Michel. You might get lucky with the martyr promotion and if not you can already weaken them while they wait for Mont St. Michel to finish. And even if you don't win with relics (and a few great works) alone you'll have such a strong faith economy you can quickly finish the game with National Parks and Rock Bands.

Országház [9] (12-3): Maybe I'm biased because I don't really go vor diplo victories but I never found it particularly strong. If you are going for a diplo victory the extra favor is nice but not that important. With the change to Pagodas there is a much easier way to generate a ton of favor. And if you are building it to sell the favor, how much are you really getting out of it? Let's be very generous and say you are suzerain of 10 city states, that is an extra 10 diplo favor per turn. And even If you have a civ that is overpaying you get around 5 GPT. Not exactly what I call super impressive.

St. Basil's Cathedral [18] (17+1): Awesome yields for tundra and usually a lot easier to build than Petra, since tundra actually has some production and you most likely have some trees you can chop. And if you miss it, that city will not be as terrible as a missed Petra city.
Additionally you get 3 relics slots with double religious tourism. Super strong with a reliquaries strategy, especially if you built Mont St. Michel (and/or Apadana) and activated Giovanni de' Medici in the same city.


Alhambra [7]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [7]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [3]
Casa de Contratación [5]
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [13]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [1]
Hagia Sophia [7]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [20]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [13]
Oracle [20]
Országház [9]
Oxford University [17]
Petra [16]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [15]
St. Basil's Cathedral [18]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [24]
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [3]

 

[TCBB]

Casa de Contratación (2) (5-3) Probably the nicest thing here is the free governor titles. But they don’t make up for the downsides, namely: 1.) at most, this wonder will affect three, maybe four cities, but only IF you prioritise transferring your governors to a foreign continent; 2.) on some maps, the bonus will be completely redundant because you’re not near a continent boundary (has happened to me many, many times – including, ironically, as Spain); and 3.) it has to go next to the Government Plaza which, as restrictions go, is a pretty big one.

Temple of Artemis (25) (24+1) I’m quite excited that Artemis is beating Pyramids. They’re both amazing wonders that bring value for the investment very, very fast. Whichever city you build Artemis in is going to be a production and district powerhouse - some of my best games have been with an Artemis capital or second city.

Alhambra [7]
Amundsen-Scott Research Station [7]
Apadana [16]
Big Ben [18]
Bolshoi Theatre [15]
Broadway [3]
Casa de Contratación [2] (5-3)
Chichen Itza [7]
Colosseum [13]
Cristo Redentor [18]
Eiffel Tower [20]
Forbidden City [20]
Great Library [11]
Great Zimbabwe [1]
Hagia Sophia [7]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mahabodhi Temple [20]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [23]
Mont St. Michel [13]
Oracle [20]
Országház [9]
Oxford University [17]
Petra [16]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [23]
Ruhr Valley [15]
St. Basil's Cathedral [18]
Statue of Liberty [15]
Temple of Artemis [25] (24+1)
Terracotta Army [18]
University of Sankore [3]