Great Wonders Elimination Thread

[hhhhhh]

(Non-voting opinion) If Temple of Artemis and Colosseum are at [15] - [17] at this stage I think it's fair for them. For me Colosseum is like if you have the chance you can grab it, but don't center your strategy around it.

I didn't vote yesterday but I made some observation in my game. I believe those who don't like Potala Palace or Diplomatic policy card are those who don't have a good culture output in their games - in that case yes for a while you won't get any "interesting" policy (although the one make first envoy as two is still very useful). For me even in my fast science victory game I make culture to 80-100 per turn before T100. So there can be some interesting diplomatic policy.

I'm not sure what to upvote. Everything seems to be in a reasonable place to me. But my votes today is about AI's competitiveness on CS in the newest version.

Kilwa Kisiwani [24] (27-3) Kilwa Kisiwani is of course the top 5, but this downvote is about if it's the top one. After the recent updates AI are way more competitive on city states and I found getting suzerainty a lot harder than it was. So I decide to downvote it a bit. Also it's kinda expensive to build, that's another problem - by the time you build it you don't really have a good production and your chops are not powerful enough to finish it in 5 chops. In the lucky cases I chop 5.5 woods to get it - 108 * 1.15 * 5.5 + 24 * 1.15 = 710, or 112 * 1.15 * 5.5 + 2 = 710. (If your culture/science is low so that your chop is only 99 or 102 at the time you want it then it is even worse - e.g. 99 * 1.15 * 6 + 24 * 1.15 = 710, which is painful.) These days you don't really want to chop till there's only flat lands around.

Apadana [6] (5+1) I decide to give some love back to Apadana (well my last downvote goes to Apadana). As I said, Apadana can be a trap to casual players, making them building lots of useless wonders, but in the hands of really good ones, with the relevant civ, it can be very powerful. Now that AI's are more competitive on city states Apadana may be of some better value, for all levels of players.

Apadana [6]
Big Ben [21]
Colosseum [14]
Eiffel Tower [6]
Forbidden City [24]
Kilwa Kisiwani [24]
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Oracle [25]
Petra [7]
Potala Palace [13]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [9]
Statue of Liberty [6]
Temple of Artemis [19]

 

[enKage]

Cristo Redentor dissapeared while someone downvoting Colloseum, so bringing it back to downvote
skipped here https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...imination-thread.661832/page-13#post-15883829 and noone noticed, such a strong wonder

CR -3
- works only with 1 victory condition
- by boosting tourism does nothing at all to any other yield
- religious tourism highly dependent on getting StMichel
- seaside tourism highly dependent on Eiffel Tower.
A wonder useful for 1 victory and highly dependent on 2 other wonders should have gone somewhere around the beginnig

Potato Salad +1
Diplo card is stil a card. Many govs are poor with diploslots and there are some very nice cards fitting in. Am I the only one who likes running +50% to spies prod, faster missions and +1 pr envoy the same time, while merchant republic, or theocracy allows only one?

Apadana [6]
Big Ben [21]
Colosseum [14]
Cristo Redentor [2]
Eiffel Tower [6]
Forbidden City [24]
Kilwa Kisiwani [24]
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Oracle [25]
Petra [7]
Potala Palace [14]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [9]
Statue of Liberty [6]
Temple of Artemis [19]

 

[MrTans]

Big Ben - Can never go wrong building Big Ben. Easy placement as your CH's are almost always going to be along a river anyway, and can give a massive power spike with its free econmic slot and immediate increase in gold

Apadana - AI loves to build it, and comes at an awkward time when I'd rather be building my empire up instead of spending time building wonders. When I do build it I don't seem to get much use out of it until much later in the game anyway as early/mid game on higher difficulties I'm rarely ever building wonders. It's still a useful wonder, but not as powerful as the others remaining

Apadana [3]
Big Ben [22]
Colosseum [14]
Cristo Redentor [2]
Eiffel Tower [6]
Forbidden City [24]
Kilwa Kisiwani [24]
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Oracle [25]
Petra [7]
Potala Palace [14]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [9]
Statue of Liberty [6]
Temple of Artemis [19]

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Apadana [3]
Big Ben [22]
Colosseum [14]
Cristo Redentor [ELIMINATED] It's beyond most people's expectation to see this wonder last this long. It is time to go.
Eiffel Tower [6]
Forbidden City [24]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25] The AI is never better or worse at handling CSs, it gives out envoys when it earns some. Gaining suzerainty is actually easier now than ever before. Remember in vanilla you are pretty tied to the civic tree to generate envoys? And then RnF introduced Amani? Now, what else do we have? Diplomatic Quarter. Fabricate Scandals mission that removes 4-6 envoys per successful mission. Gaining suzerainty can never get any simpler. Best thing about this wonder is that it is unlocked with a tech you actually want to beeline, since it unlocks Crossbowman as well.
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Oracle [25]
Petra [7]
Potala Palace [14]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [9]
Statue of Liberty [6]
Temple of Artemis [19]

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Apadana [0 - Eliminated] 3-3 It's had a good run but time to go, all of the remaining Wonders are much better than it.
Potala Palace [15] 14+1 As @enKage says a diplo card slot is still a card slot and it comes at a good time, probably not top 5 but definitely should finish in top 10

Apadana [0] Eliminated
Big Ben [22]
Colosseum [14]
Eiffel Tower [6]
Forbidden City [24]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Oracle [25]
Petra [7]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [9]
Statue of Liberty [6]
Temple of Artemis [19]

 

[Datian]

Big Ben [22]
Colosseum [14]
Eiffel Tower [7] 6+1 It does what I expect from a wonder : have an influence on your whole territory, be useful for more than one purpose.
Forbidden City [24]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Oracle [25]
Petra [4] 7-3 Restricted to a single city, it doesn't change your game, though it is fun to build.
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [9]
Statue of Liberty [6]
Temple of Artemis [19]

 

[TCBB]

Petra [1] (4-3) Agreed. We all love Petra. But never have I had my game turned around by completing an awesome Petra city; I build it because I can.

Temple of Artemis [20] (19+1) Built it in my latest game. How’s a population 10 capital with 30 production and +4 amenities at the end of the classical era sound? Bloody brilliant, especially in conjunction with Pingala.

Big Ben [22]
Colosseum [14]
Eiffel Tower [7]
Forbidden City [24]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Oracle [25]
Petra [1] (4-3)
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [9]
Statue of Liberty [6]
Temple of Artemis [20] (19+1)

 

[monikernemo]

Big Ben [22]
Colosseum [14]
Eiffel Tower [7]
Forbidden City [24]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Oracle [25]
Petra [Eliminated] (1 - 3)
I don't understand any upvotes for Petra at this point in the elimination thread, I think it is comparatively the worst wonder in this list right now.
You only build it out of desperation when you have no choice but to settle in the desert, or either that settling in the desert yields great benefits i.e. Paititi, White Sahara, Eye of the Sahara etc.
And in fact for most of games one can avoid building settling in desert most of the time; there is literally no point in settling a city that requires additional 480 production to let it grow.
If the city is productive enough to grow and can build petra without additional support, is there a point in even building it in the first place just to fertilise some desert tiles in your cities?

Most of the time I'm building Petra it's in one of the last cities I settle and it's an era or two later than you'd think (and in the rare event Petra's gone, I'll just skip settling that desert city at all).

From a strategic PoV, I disagree with building Petra in the last few cities you settle. The last city you settle is already lagging behind in growth, so it certainly should not be in the desert at all, so in fact it should be one of the earlier cities that you build a Petra.
Potala Palace [16] (15 + 1)
Diplomatic policies are weak early but strong late game and in fact as good as your economic policy cards. One extra diplomatic policy slot means preventing pesky rock bands from achieving culture victory, or preventing spies from wrecking your space projects without the risk of losing 5% sci/cul.
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [9]
Statue of Liberty [6]
Temple of Artemis [20]

 

[CrabHelmet]

Big Ben [22]
Colosseum [14]
Eiffel Tower [8]
Forbidden City [24]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Oracle [25]
Potala Palace [15]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [6]
Statue of Liberty [6]
Temple of Artemis [20]

Cristo Redentor should have beaten Petra at least. I will admit there's a peculiar endorphin rush that releases when you see some really good Petra yield porn, but yeah, that was almost the right time for it to go. Anyway, with Petra gone I think there's one Wonder left which is clearly not competitive with the others on this list and that is St. Basil's Cathedral. It is the second-best "Petra" Wonder after the Mausoleum, because it can support Reliquary Cultural Victories in its own right rather than just being making one city settleable, but if Mont St. Michel is gone (too soon...) and Cristo Redentor is gone, St. Basil's Cathedral really has to be next up.

We're now in the "these Wonders are really, really good list", more or less. With the exception of St. Basil's Cathedral, and with the Alhambra missing, this is the core list of kick-ass wonders that really do have thumping big impacts to support your game. While up to this point, I have preached the virtues of not overlooking specialists necessarily, the many of remaining generalist wonders aren't jacks of all trades, they are masters of all trades, which is another thing altogether.

There are still a few remaining specialists: the Eiffel Tower (Appeal-driven Cultural Victory); Mahabodhi Temple (almost only built for Religious Victory); Ruhr Valley (Science Victory); St. Basil's Cathedral (Reliquaries-driven Cultural Victory); and Statue of Liberty (DIplomatic Victory).

Of these, I'd like to make the case for the Eiffel Tower again. I think it does more for Appeal-driven Cultural Victories than any of the others in that selection do for their specialist Victory Condition. The big problem I have with Cultural Victory compared to the other Victory Conditions, and what makes it really hard, is that it demands a wider range of resources. Domination needs a heavy glut of Production early on, transitioning into mostly Gold later, supported by Science throughout. Science needs mostly just Science, excepting early Production for Defensive purposes and late Production for Spaceports. Religious Victory needs early Culture and Production to rush the necessary materials, but can actually neglect Science and just use Faith. Cultural Victory though... you need Science to get to Flight and Steel etc quickly, you need Production for all the tasty supporting Wonders, you need Faith for Naturalists and Rock Bands, you need Theatre Squares and Holy Sites and Campuses and Commercial Hubs and the occasional Industrial Zone helps - you need a bit of everything and that is just harder for Civs to sustain.

The Eiffel Tower, in conjunction with Earth Goddess, means you can have a really powerful Cultural Civ while completely ignoring Religion and even Holy Sites, or at least having far less than you'd otherwise need. If you have 10 Civs of 10 Pops roughly, and each is working one of those +2 Faith tiles which is trivial thanks to the added Appeal, that's 200 Faith per turn before any kind of modifiers or bonuses. Who needs Holy Sites? In addition, that's +8 Tourism to every National Park, +2 to every Seaside Resort, +2 to every Ski Resort - it is a big push.

By comparison: I think the Ruhr Valley is a trap and by the time St. Basil's Cathedral is done I'm going to push for it to go unless I can be talked out of it. I think it costs too much Production, too late, to really pay for itself, especially given how difficult it can be to get non-mediocre Industrial Zones in unhelpful terrain. Occasionally, the Ruhr Valley synergizes just right and is helpful. Too often, I'm paying for something that never pays itself back. The Mahabodhi Temple is great - it converts Production to Faith in a Victory Condition where Production has otherwise just stopped being useful. The Statue of Liberty is 20% of your win condition. Ruhr Valley can't compete with either of those.

 

[kaspergm]

Big Ben [23] (22+1) - another small bump for Big Ben, I don't think its position is bad on the list right now, but I do rate this at least the same if not higher than Forbidden City, because an economic slot is defacto a wild card slot.
Colosseum [14]
Eiffel Tower [8]
Forbidden City [24]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Oracle [25]
Potala Palace [16]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [6] (9-3) - there are a handful of likely candidates for next elimination, I'm torn between Eiffel Tower and St. Basil's Cathedral, but pick St. Basil's because it sits higher. I also don't agree that this should last longer than Petra; I know Petra is just one city, but it comes sufficiently early for that one city to significantly influence the rest of the game under the right map conditions - which are not that rare - but that's a mood point now.
Temple of Artemis [20]

 

[bbbt]

St Basils should be at 3. Poster prior to the last downvoted but didn't actually deduct points.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Yes, sorry, that's my fault completely. Last time I try editing the voting list on mobile!

 

[JJOne]

Big Ben [23]
Colosseum [11] (14-3) It's really expensive. You build an entertainment district and an arena only to get this.
Eiffel Tower [8]
Forbidden City [25](24+1) Another policy card can bring you a lot of yields.
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Potala Palace [16]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [3]
Temple of Artemis [20]

 

[Josephias]

-3) Statue of Liberty (6 >> 3) Lost from the list a pair of posts ago, I'l readd it and downvote. While it cannot be denied it helps diplo victory, I'm not in agreement in that it is a 20% of Diplo Victory. It might be in specific cases, but as @bengalryan9 said some posts ago, it can lead you into lose-point-vote territory more often than not, thus reducing its effectivity. Of course, if you are at 13 dvp and can manage SoL+AidRequest+WCcompetition all in a WC round, that's great. But that's kind of situational and, in other cases you either were lagging behind in DV (and SoL will help but not win your game) or, as commented, SoL will make you get voted against earlier.

+1) Colosseum (11 >> 12) I've to agree this is a wonder that is not a priority on the build list, due to the entertainment district requirements, so I won't say it is an "always build" wonder. However, I have to say as well effect is noticeable if you get to build it. So I don't think it will make much higher, but there are still others to go before.

Big Ben [23]
Colosseum [12]
Eiffel Tower [8]
Forbidden City [25]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [8]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Potala Palace [16]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [3]
Statue of Liberty [3]
Temple of Artemis [20

 

[Leucarum]

I guess in this thread the Coloseum is the one which is going to drop due to repeated downvoting. Getting a mountain of culture and boosted yields due to ecstatic cities at the start of the game is ample reward for one of your cities building an entertainment district... The Mahabodi Temple is fun, but there's better benefits on this list than a couple of apostles.

Big Ben [23]
Colosseum [13]
Eiffel Tower [8]
Forbidden City [25]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [5]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Potala Palace [16]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [10]
St. Basil's Cathedral [3]
Statue of Liberty [3]
Temple of Artemis [20]

 

[Drivingrevilo]

(Abnormally late vote for me today)

Ruhr Valley [11] [10+1] In the hope that it makes top 10. The arguments have been made earlier and can be summarised with the old adage: production is king.

St Basil’s Cathedral [3-3] ELIMINATED. Upvoted it earlier but time to go. Relic strategies can be powerful, but they can also fall flat for a variety of reasons (eg. you miss Mont St Michel, or no one on your continent decides to fight your apostles aggressively). As for the tundra yields, they’re fine, especially as Russia, but not a reason to keep Basil in.

Big Ben [23]
Colosseum [13]
Eiffel Tower [8]
Forbidden City [25]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [5]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [26]
Potala Palace [16]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [11] [10+1]
St. Basil's Cathedral [3-3] [ELIMINATED]
Statue of Liberty [3]
Temple of Artemis [20]

 

[bengalryan9]

Big Ben [23]
Colosseum [13]
Eiffel Tower [8]
Forbidden City [25]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [2] (5-3) This basically just turns 400 production into about 800 faith. Maybe it allows you to enhance your religion and grab all the beliefs you want a few turns earlier, but the AI isn't very good at choosing beliefs (they'll just take a bunch of mediocre buildings first) so I don't see that as a huge deal. If you're really planning on playing a religious game you're going to set up a strong faith economy, and the stronger your faith economy is the weaker this wonder is.
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [27] (26+1) Almost always available to be built and can basically win you a science victory all by itself if you've got the GPP to grab the engineers you want.
Potala Palace [16]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [11]
Statue of Liberty [3]
Temple of Artemis [20]

 

[xaiviax]

The early bird gets the compounded returns.

Big Ben [23]
Colosseum [13]
Eiffel Tower [5] (8-3) No Notre-Dame de Paris, no Arc de Triomphe, no Louvre. This modern era wonder gets the down vote for simply being the latest era wonder left.
Forbidden City [25]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [2]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [27]
Potala Palace [16]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [11]
Statue of Liberty [3]
Temple of Artemis [21] (20+1) How I miss my specialized cities from civ 4, and I suppose the tall ones from Civ 5. This ancient wonder allows a bit of that nostalgia, while still being a strong wonder in its own right.

 

[Francel]

Big Ben [23]
Colosseum [13]
Eiffel Tower [5]
Forbidden City [25]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mahabodhi Temple [2]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [27]
Oracle [26] (25+1) - Please, do not disrespect my favorite wonder by deleting it from the list. Since I have to add it back, I'm upvoting it as well. Extra great people points means you can churn out great people without much faith at all. I tested this with Scotland (no holy sites) and made Oracle plus Pingala. I've gotten 7 of the first 8 great scientists (immortal 8 players). Wowzers. If you do have faith, you can buy the great people you want and/or need with relative ease. You can buy the great engineer and get a free wonder. The possibilities are excellent.
Potala Palace [16]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [8] (11-3) - Downvoting Ruhr Valley today. This used to be one of my favorite wonders, but let me walk you through some numbers to illustrate why I think it's overrated. Ruhr Valley costs 1240 production. In a city outputting 60 production per turn, the wonder can be completed in around 20 turns. Skyscrapers and Brussels could shave some turns off, so let's assume this city will finish Ruhr in 18 turns. Upon completion, Ruhr provides an extra 20% production, as well as +1 production per mine and quarry. The percentage boost gives 12, and with a typical number of mines/quarries, we might have an extra 18 production per turn. In order for the extra production to compensate for the production that was put into Ruhr Valley, you're going to need 50 or more turns. People have argued that if you make that investment now, it's okay because you're basically just waiting for the point in the game when you can launch a spaceship or whatever. Well, the turns spent producing Ruhr also mean you miss out building something that is potentially more useful. My numbers may not be perfect due to rounding and various assumptions, but you still get the point.
Statue of Liberty [3]
Temple of Artemis [21]

 

[CoconutTank]

Colosseum [14] (13+1) I don't quite understand why the Colosseum is getting dunked on, nor do I find it particularly egregious to build an Entertainment Complex and an Arena to go with it. It's true that the EC is a speciality district that one would not want to build often, but one only needs the single EC for Colo (and Maracana if one wants to plan for it), a single EC can cover multiple cities later on, and at the time of building the Colo, the build cost for the EC should be negligible anyway. The benefits of Colo are pretty good; being able to fit multiple cities within 6 range of the Colo shouldn't be too difficult, and getting culture and amenities for each affected city helps a lot.

Mahadbodhi Temple [-1] (2-3) MT is helpful if one wants to go for a religious victory, but losing it is not the end of the world. If one wants to go for a diplo victory, I don't know if MT is quite as compelling. Having a religion is not always a guarantee and is quite a commitment to maintain. And just as a personal preference, MT is the least likely wonder that I'd want to build out of what's left.

Something to consider; the main benefits of MT are from building it, which are 2 free Apostles and 2 DV points. Capturing MT is not particularly useful nor compelling, unlike (imo) capturing Big Ben, Forbidden City or Pyramids. I don't know how I should evaluate this. Is the MT a better wonder because it's front loaded, grants a majority of its benefits to the builder, and less likely to attract the attention of warmongers? Or is it worse because of it being front loaded and not having that kind of demand? I thought it was an interesting factor of the MT.

Big Ben [23]
Colosseum [14]
Eiffel Tower [5]
Forbidden City [25]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [27]
Oracle [26]
Potala Palace [16]
Pyramids [27]
Ruhr Valley [8]
Statue of Liberty [3]
Temple of Artemis [21]