Great Wonders Elimination Thread

[bbbt]

Voting a bit late today. I basically try and build anything on this list if I can, so it's a hard choice, but I'll go with:

Kilwa [27] 26 + 1 As I often play smaller maps, it's sometimes hard to have a ton of suzerainships, but even two like CS suzerainships makes this a beast. 15% of any yield in the game across your empire is not something anything else can match.

Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [10] 13 - 3 At this point, a much more limited effect than anything else left.

Forbidden City [22]
Kilwa Kisiwani [27]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [10]
Oracle [26]
Pyramids [31]

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Forbidden City [19] How is that possible than all other policy slot wonders are eliminated yet this one still sits firmly at 20+? Policies that are strictly wildcard at this point are great people cards (which are frankly terrible) and legacy cards (which you only have 1 at this point). Later in the game when there are more wildcard policies, the government you choose has more than enough to accommodate it. People always talk about "flexibility" yet 9 times out of 10 they will run an economic card in that slot, and Big Ben is already gone.
Kilwa Kisiwani [28] This is the first wonder I upvoted, and will be the hill I'd die on. The only wonder I accept to maybe be stronger than KK is the Pyramids, so this should at least make top 2.
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [10]
Oracle [26]
Pyramids [31]

 

[ADHansa]

Sorry for not following the instructions.I'll do better.

Forbidden City [19]
Kilwa Kisiwani [28]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [7] (10-3) A nice and worthwhile wonder but the bottom 2 of the remaining, I rate permanent bonuses but military engineering charges have more limited uses and sea squares are often not that good to begin with to make it that bonus very signifikant.
Oracle [26]
Pyramids [32] (31+1) It is just excellent payback,Cheap, Early, Instant refund and than a signifikant bonus for the rest of the game. Takes a useless tile on the map and makes theater square hub often bringing even more desert squares tiles into significance.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Forbidden City [20] 19+1 "People always talk about "flexibility" yet 9 times out of 10 they will run an economic card in that slot, and Big Ben is already gone." Yes but Big Ben comes much much later and with stricter requirements so to me it's pretty obvious why FC is a better wonder and then there's that 1 time out of 10 you want to run a non economic card - BB can't do that.
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [4] 7-3 Well worth a top 5 finish but in a list of elite wonders this is clearly weaker than the others.

Forbidden City [20]
Kilwa Kisiwani [28]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [4]
Oracle [26]
Pyramids [32]

 

[TCBB]

Kilwa Kisiwani [25] [28-3] Agree that Mausoleum is the least impactful (though still great). But since this may well be my last vote given how quickly this is advancing, I downvote Kilwa again because I don’t think it deserves to win, contrary to what some are saying. Some maps, building Kilwa is simply not an option: either you’re stuck in the middle of a continent, or you don’t find any city-states nearby, or the ones you do find are eaten by the AI, or the AI has one of their weird episodes where they dedicate 20 envoys into that one city-state you already had 8 envoys at. In other words, Kilwa is situationally-dependent. And sure, you can ‘plan ahead’ or ‘build your game around it’ to a certain extent; but going out of your way to liberate city-states is a pain, as is settling a low-production coastal-city far away from your heartlands purely in order to stand a chance of getting Kilwa. Oracle only needs one hill tile, Pyramids only needs one desert tile, Forbidden City only needs one tile adjacent to the city-centre; but Kilwa requires 3-tile proximity to the coast *and* suzerainty of city-states, neither of which are guaranteed.

Maybe you play small maps

And FWIW, yes, my normal map size is ‘small’: not everyone has a powerful enough computer to cope with anything above standard size. So this probably accentuates my feelings on Kilwa - a great wonder, but not first place because the power behind it is sometimes taken completely out of your hands.

Pyramids [33] (32+1) Not much else to add: self-evidently an excellent wonder that pays itself off very quickly.

Forbidden City [20]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25] (28-3)
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [4]
Oracle [26]
Pyramids [33] (32+1)

 

[CultureManiac]

Forbidden City [17] (20-3) Best of the policy slot wonders since it's a wildcard, and a nice culture boost to boot, but at this point it's weaker than the remaining wonders.
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [4]
Oracle [27] (26+1) Since you will have to build this early, it will be in one of your core cities with lots of districts. Think of it as 1 culture, 1 faith, plus 2GS, 2GG, 2GM and 2GE points (Or whatever your assortment of districts is). Oh, and if you need to rush buy a GP is on sale 25% off.
Pyramids [33]

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Mausoleum at Halicarnassus +1: The only wonder I always try to snag. Isn't really dependent on RNG placement restrictions (can be built next to coast or next to a lake if inland), and it's nearly always available for some reason as the AI does NOT like to build it at all. The extra engineer charge can be near gamebreaking on the right engineers, and the tile yields are by far the most powerful of the "Petra-style wonders", boosting your science, culture and faith by a significant amount at the time where it counts the most. Double charges on Sergei Korolev (instabuilding both Earth Satellite and Moon Landing), Alvar Aalto or James Watt? Yes please, always!
Pyramids -3: This wonder is a little overrated in my opinion. Let me be clear: Yes, this wonder always pays off, and is good. But what does it really pay off besides the investment? Paying off the investment is a prerequisite for even building a wonder, but that's the only thing this wonder does - paying off the cogwheels for slightly more cogwheels. After Feudalism (and possibly with Liang appointed), your builders get 5 or 6 charges baseline anyway. Will it really matter by then if your builders have 6 or 7 charges instead? Again, this wonder pays off the investment, but it's not propelling you into an ultra-strong game, unlike the Oracle (which can guarantee you most of the early GS/writers, and saving you a ton of faith), the Mausoleum (which super charges your late game, and can save you an immense amount of turns for a scientific victory) or Kilwa Kisiwani (if you get good suzerainties, breaking the game right there and then). Requiring a desert tile does not help either, as I'm often not able to locate a desert early on when I do want to build it (and when the extra charge helps the most). Make no mistake though, it's a good wonder, but I'm not going out of my way to locate a desert tile just to get it, if it means not foregoing a more lucrative settling spot elsewhere. It's just not THAT good. If I start with a desert tile (or my next 2-3 early cities naturally get a desert and some choppable forests), sure, but otherwise, no.

Forbidden City [17]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [5]
Oracle [27]
Pyramids [30]

 

[fantsu]

Forbidden City [18] (17+1) That slot. Love it. Everything else have been said.
Kilwa Kisiwani [22] (25-3) My least favorite era building wonders, its really good but competition is tough here.
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [5]
Oracle [27]
Pyramids [30]

 

[CrabHelmet]

Forbidden City [18]
Kilwa Kisiwani [23]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [5]
Oracle [27]
Pyramids [27]

Pyramids is running away when there's lots of alternatives. You put Liang in a city, run Feudalism, and bulk buy a load of Settlers. Pyramid is clearly very good but not the best.

Kilwa is the best. Even just 2 City-States of the same type and you have yourself a monster and that happens even on small maps. Surprised it isn't way out in front, I'd have considered it the obvious juggernaut.

If you have Liang and Feudalism, Pyramids puts from 6 charges to 7. If you had +15% production, you can (almost) build 7 workers in the time you'd otherwise build 6. That's a very imperfect comparison, but indicates the raw power of the Kilwa Kisiwani.

 

[Leucarum]

Forbidden City [18]
Kilwa Kisiwani [24]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [2]
Oracle [27]
Pyramids [27]

I agree that Kilwa is the only competition for the pyramids on this list so I'll throw it a vote. Ironically for a water themed wonder the Mausoleum is the only one that's out of its depth...

 

[bengalryan9]

Forbidden City [18]
Kilwa Kisiwani [24]
Mausoleum at Halicarnassus [eliminated] (2-3) I love ya, but it's time to go. Simply outmatched at this point.
Oracle [27]
Pyramids [28] (27+1) I find the rationale that "you could just use Liang or slot serfdom" to be an odd one in arguing against the Pyramids. I mean yeah, I could... or I could just build the Pyramids and spend my governor promotion or card slot on something else that might be more useful instead.

 

[MrTans]

Kilwa Kisiwani - I don't actually tend to build this wonder an awful lot personally as I'm not the most observant when it comes to city states, and tend to only end up being suzerain of one or two unless I'm really planning on it. That being said, I completely appreciate how powerful it is on most occasions, and on others completely gamebreaking

Forbidden City - An extra wildcard spot is very useful indeed, but with its negligible culture bonus this is really all it's offering. Completely outclassed by three game changing wonders above it

Forbidden City [15]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Oracle [27]
Pyramids [28]

 

[hhhhhh]

Pyramids [29] (28+1) Lots of weird arguments here. You only need 1 flat desert to build Pyramids. You only need to chop 3 trees to get it. Instant payback - it even grant you a free builder and all your existing builders get +1 charge. I normally get 15+ builders before serfdom and let's say 10 benefit from Pyramids (one of them is the free builder) - that's 13 extra builder charges. For those who don't have Pyramids you need more than 4 builders to get that many and that's more than 300 production, which is more than what Pyramids cost. And it just keep working. Especially when you settle 30 cities and get 27 free builders from Ancestral Hall - Can you get Liang in these cases?
Forbidden City [12] (15-3) Weakest of the existing ones. Extra policy is very nice but not as strong as the rest.

Forbidden City [12]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Oracle [27]
Pyramids [29]

Why is #3 of this thread still not updated?

BTW mod approved me to do a natural wonder elimination thread. So I will start tomorrow after this one is done. Stay tuned!

 

[Jewelrunna]

Forbidden City [9]
Kilwa Kisiwani [25]
Oracle [27]
Pyramids [30]

Forbidden City [9] (12 - 3): A free wildcard is really strong, no doubt about it, but it comes relatively late into the game. Still enough of the game left to have a substantial impact, don't get me wrong, but it's not gonna be as relevant as what we have left here.

Pyramids [30] (29 + 1): Agree completely with @hhhhhh on this one. It's the best wonder in the game. No question.

 

[xaiviax]

The Final Four

One of these is not like the others.
High level play involves precise planning and impeccable timing. With that in play, Kilwa Kisiwani's, the Oracle's, and the Pyramid's strengths become amplified. And the need for extra policies become diminished. Thus my down vote for the Forbidden City.
I have supported the Pyramids and the Oracle throughout this thread. I do have to acknowledge that the Swahili City-State of Kilwa Kisiwani is the only competition to the Pyramids of Giza for the win. The idea of an earlier Amundsen-Scott Research Station, a civilization wide Ruhr Valley, and more, all rolled into one is pretty crazy. Thus my first up vote for Kilwa.

Forbidden City [6] (9-3)
Kilwa Kisiwani [26] (25+1)
Oracle [27]
Pyramids [30]

 

[Francel]

Forbidden City [6]
Kilwa Kisiwani [27] (26+1) - Also genuinely surprised this isn't the runaway favorite. +15% in not just one city but every city. +30% in the city itself. Exceeds Oxford, Ruhr, Kotoku-in, etc. Not that hard to get envoys or suzerainity. I guess maybe we just have very different game settings, but my games usually have at least 12 city states.
Oracle [27]
Pyramids [27] (30-3) - Extra builder and builder charge not game changing. You could just buy your builders in the city with Liang, or run serfdom, or monumentality, etc. Even if this is good and you develop your empire faster, it's not a true game changer in my eyes like Kilwa or Oracle.

 

[JhGf_123]

Forbidden City [6]
Kilwa Kisiwani [24] (27-3) Don’t get it. Probably because I play on small size maps almost always. I do build it from time to time, but I’ve never noticed it be a ‘game changer’ as fantastically as some of y’all are claiming. Oracle is impactful 100% of the time, and Pyramids is just universally brilliant if you have a desert tile.
Oracle [27]
Pyramids [28] (27+1) Easy to build, as it’s often remaining several eras after (though you’ll want to get it sooner); relatively simple to place; and pays itself off almost immediately.

 

[kaspergm]

Forbidden City [6]
Kilwa Kisiwani [21] (24-3) - I don't really get it either. Ok that's not true, I get that this can be really powerful. I just don't think it always is. I normally play normal size maps with 9-10 city states, and generally AI will take out a couple of them in early game. This means that in many games, the benefits I can get from this are lukewarm, even if I did not have to contest with other civs for suzerainship.
Oracle [28] (27+1) - Probably the best of the remaining wonders. It has a big impact, is extremely versatile, and is always useful.
Pyramids [28]

 

[JJOne]

Forbidden City [6]
Kilwa Kisiwani [22] (21+1) Playing on large maps usually, this is the best wonder.
Oracle [28]
Pyramids [25](28-3) If you don't have desert in your capital you have a good chance to miss it. I would also argue that a good Kilwa will probably benefit you more over the whole game.

 

[lotrmith]

I don't get it either. I can see a big debate between City and Pyramids for the top spot but the love for Kilwa and the hate for City just don't add up. Oracle I believe should be gone by now.

The comparative value of these Wonders over time all diminish except for Kilwa. However, Kilwa is the only one left that can be absolutely worthless. It is the only one left subject to the whims of the map seed and the aggression of the AI. At best it's a 30% empire wide buff, at worst it's 3 envoys and nothing (but less hyperbolic, still a 15% buff to a single city to 1 or 2 yields).

Of the remaining, Oracle is unlikely to leverage the faith discount on Patronage... not many players across not many civs actually do this and can count on one hand the times they do in any given game. Its GPP also drop off sharply relative to empire building, and value-wise comparative to the ever increasing cost of GPs.

Pyramids does drop off in comparative value but only when you get to Feudalism and lock in the card. It does not lose value relative to Liang because the value is exceeded by the pre-Liang builders and all of your Ancestral Hall builders. There is rarely a time I cannot find a good use for a builder charge and that is typically in the closing turns of the game.

City comes online the latest of this final bunch but not by much. Its value is the least diminished over time, as single Econ slots are by far the most valuable resource in the game. They are relatively scarce, as you can't just buy more (builders) or expand and also run projects (GPP). Further, as you do get more, you also have more and more incredibly powerful cards to be running. (And its a Wildcard slot too, but admittedly 99% of the time it'll be an Econ card)


Forbidden City [7]
Kilwa Kisiwani [22]
Oracle [25]
Pyramids


P.s. If you're not building builders until after Feudalism you've probably suffered from the most significant and self-imposed opportunity cost of the game.