Greatest European Rulers of the Middle Ages

[luiz]

I think Phillippe the Fair(Phillippe IV) was an extremely succesfull medieval ruler.
I don't know if he was the greatets, but the man really made some amazing accomplishments:

1- Unifying the currency(against the interests of the barons)
2- Defeating Flanders in severall ocasions and making it part of France.
3-Peacefully managing to unite the crown of Navarra with the french one.
4- Making the English king Edward II to pay him tribute
5- Destroying the Templars, who were so powefull that threatned the king's authority, and taking all of their possessions to the state
6-Making the Church move to Avignon, and to be under the complete controll of himself.

 

[Ozz]

Alfred the Great.

 

[Kafka2]

Interesting character, Alfred the Great. He made a lot of mistakes in his early campaigns, but he certainly learned from them. Illiterate until middle age, then promptly became a decent scholar. One hell of a warrior, but a raging hypochondriac and plagued by sexual guilt.

I rank him as second-best English ruler, just behind Athelstan.

 

[Xen]

@Calgacus- if its specifics you want, now that you have pointed out exactlety what needs to be said, i can get them, also, i wont be as furious- part of the reason ican post with such emotion is mainlly frustation at ewhat exactley I have to find information wise

all said, i'd liek the tine of the coversation to go civlized again, and to this end i request that both of us refrain from putting smiley faces- cause in the end, they usually end up pissing me off when used in an argument

 

[Xen]

oh yes, and dont expect apost in bhere from me for a while-its going to take some time i really dont have at the moment to gather al the info

 

[Pangur Bán]

yeah, no worries Xen, this argument is boring me a bit...so take your time.

PS, check your PMs.

 

[luiz]

Hey, won't any of you historians comment my vote on Phillippe IV?

 

[Pangur Bán]

Well, a couple of down notes, before the main point:

1) Conceding Guienne to Edward I
2) Defeat by Flanders at Battle of Courtrai
3) Persecution of Jews, Lombards and Templars to finance his many wars

However, he was more successful than not. The main argument I can see is that the man has absolutely no chance of getting in the top 5, or even top 10. Doesn't mean he was a bad ruler, or even an ordinary one. Just no Constantine or Charles V.

 

[Xen]

Originally posted by calgacus
yeah, no worries Xen, this argument is boring me a bit...so take your time.

PS, check your PMs.

same here man, same here, and I suggest checking your PMs

 

[luiz]

Your points are valid, but:

1- By conceding Guienne he became the "lord" of the English king(there's a more appropriate portuguese word that I can't translate)
2-He eventually defeated the Flemish, what the following kings would not manage to do.
3-Sure, the persecutions were completeley immoral(he was a pretty evil guy), but he took so much money from the jews, the Templars and the lombard bankers that he made France become the richest european nation.

And I believe his greatest accomplishment was to take the Church to Avignon and put it completely under his rule. He even sent military expeditions to punish the pope if he didn't obeyd him. At that time, controlling the Church was a big deal, an few monarchs managed to do so (basically himself and his second son, Phillippe V.)

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by luiz
Your points are valid, but:

1- By conceding Guienne he became the "lord" of the English king(there's a more appropriate portuguese word that I can't translate)

Kinda curious about what you mean here?

Originally posted by luiz
Your points are valid, but:

As always

Originally posted by luiz
Your points are valid, but:

1- By conceding Guienne he became the "lord" of the English king(there's a more appropriate portuguese word that I can't translate)
2-He eventually defeated the Flemish, what the following kings would not manage to do.
3-Sure, the persecutions were completeley immoral(he was a pretty evil guy), but he took so much money from the jews, the Templars and the lombard bankers that he made France become the richest european nation.

And I believe his greatest accomplishment was to take the Church to Avignon and put it completely under his rule. He even sent military expeditions to punish the pope if he didn't obeyd him. At that time, controlling the Church was a big deal, an few monarchs managed to do so (basically himself and his second son, Phillippe V.)

Sure. But before the reform movement, the papacy was under the thumb of petty Italian lords...

But point taken. Wouldn't put him in a top 10, considering all those great names.

 

[luiz]

Originally posted by calgacus


Kinda curious about what you mean here?

I found the word
In the treaty in which Phillipe IV recognised that Edward II was ruler of Guienne, it was stablished that the king of England would become vassal of king of France, and would pay him tribute on fixed dates.
Edward II paid the tribute in severall occasions(to Phillippe IV, Louis X, Phillippe V and Charles IV), what was humiliating(he never went personally, to avoid deeper humiliation. He sent secretarys or his own son, Edward III).

Maybe Phillippe IV don't deserve to be on top 5, but I would surely place hime in my top 10 list

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by luiz


I found the word
In the treaty in which Phillipe IV recognised that Edward II was ruler of Guienne, it was stablished that the king of England would become vassal of king of France, and would pay him tribute on fixed dates.
Edward II paid the tribute in severall occasions(to Phillippe IV, Louis X, Phillippe V and Charles IV), what was humiliating(he never went personally, to avoid deeper humiliation. He sent secretarys or his own son, Edward III).

Maybe Phillippe IV don't deserve to be on top 5, but I would surely place hime in my top 10 list

OK. THat's what I though...I but also thought that you meant somethign sexual.

Of course, these French kings received tribute for their lands in France - not as kings of England. But wwas Phillipe IV the first to achieve this?

 

[Ozz]

Originally posted by Kafka2
Interesting character, Alfred the Great. He made a lot of mistakes in his early campaigns, but he certainly learned from them. Illiterate until middle age, then promptly became a decent scholar. One hell of a warrior, but a raging hypochondriac and plagued by sexual guilt.

I rank him as second-best English ruler, just behind Athelstan.

I think his acts of mercy and humanity vs the vikings are what
set him apart. Even the Vikings were awed and respected
his release of the Cheifain ????? wife and children (can't
recall the name, and i'm not at home) against all advice, paid
off (That chief never attacked Wessex again, but when off
to savage the Irish)

As for the metal problems, I think those particular ones were
VERY common in those times, and good for the Chruch coffers
too.

 

[luiz]

Originally posted by calgacus



OK. THat's what I though...I but also thought that you meant somethign sexual.

Of course, these French kings received tribute for their lands in France - not as kings of England. But it was Phillipe IV the first to achieve this?

Yes. There was a dispute about Guienne since the days of St. Louis, but an agreement was only reached during the reign of Phillippe IV.
St. Louis was famous for making treatys that meant nothing, and since him there was conflct over Guienne.
Phillippe IV settled them pretty well, however due to the successory crisis that followed Charles IV death it all became void(since Edward III claimed to be the rightfull king of France, and we all know what happened then).

edit: During the reign of Charles IV, a french military expedition led by Charles de Valois defeated the English guarisson under the command of the the Count Edmond Kent at Guienne, because Edward II was refusing to pay the tribute. After the defeat he sent his son, the prince and future king Edward III to pay it.

 

[Lord_Sidious]

I think that the greatest were:
Richard the Lion Hearted
Afonso Henriques
Barbarossa
(she was not a king or queen but a great leader)Joan of Arc
Justinian

 

[Kafka2]

Originally posted by Rolo Master
I think that the greatest were:
Richard the Lion Hearted

Uhhhhh....he was crap, actually. At least, from an English viewpoint. He hated England, couldn't be bothered to actually rule, left his rapist brother in charge and we kept having to pay a fortune to rescue him. The only kudos he gets are for being a half-decent general, and for seducing his brother-in-law.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Good old Richard Coeur de Lion.

Anachronistic history oftens makes people forget that England in this period was a culturally French state (in terms of royal and aristocratic interests), with a balanced number of territories in modern England and France. Of course, this got worse with Henry II (Richard's father?).

 

[Pangur Bán]

Since Richard swore fealty to Heinrich VI, England's territories were technically controlled by Germany

(BTW, can anyone tell me why Brittany might be colored English? )

 

[Lord_Sidious]

Really, I didn't know that