Grigori & The Altar of the Luonnotar

[Emptiness]

This discussion from the Bug Thread piqued my interest:

Last night I was playing a multiplayer game ad the Grigori with the goal of using my Luonnotars to build the Alter of Luonnotar. After many hours I finally got all the levels of the alter research and the techs needed to upgrade my adventurers into Luonnotars. Imagine my surprise when the option to use then to build the first level of the atler wasn't available.

That was taken out because it was too easy of a win for the Grigori. They need a level requirement before they should be able to build them (lets say maybe 12 - 15). Flavor wise it should be added back somehow...

I've never understood how it was an easy win.... but I don't end up with 100 level 20 units like everyone else seems to..... If I get units pumped up enough to upgrade to Luonnatar, I don't necessarily want to sacrifice them for an Altar.... and since Grigori will never be able to produce enough Prophets to build the Altar, it's now an impossible win for the Grigori....

From what I can tell, Grigori can only win a Conquest or Domination win.... very UN-Cassiel-like I think.

But it really wouldn't be any easier a win for the Grigori than for anyone that can build a pagan temple early on to set 1 priest specialist then use that first GP to build the first level of the alter, thus enabling a 2nd priest specialist. Add in anotyher priest specialist for any religious temples and it becomes easier and faster to get 6 GPs than it is for the 6 Adventures. Plus no need for a high level tech to upgrade those GPs before they can make those first 6 alter levels. Thus long before the Grigori can even get their special units to build the alters, some other, non-agnostic, civ could have been reaping the benefits of each of those 6 levels of the alter for quite a long time.

For example in a single player game as the Calabim, I was pumping out the GPs fast enough that I could research the required techs for the alter as well as other techs I needed for defense, my economy and to found all but one of the religions, and had enough GPs to get the alters built and all the special religious buildings built.

When you consider that each priest specialist is +3 GPP and the Grigori at most get +4 Adventurer GPP (1 from the capital, 2 from the adventurer guild and 1 from the Grigori Tavern), that's barely more than 1 specialist to gain GPs of any other type. Then considering it only takes a tier 2 tech, Mysticism, to build the pagan temple to get +3 GPP towards a prophet vs the 1 from the Grigori palace towards the Adventurers, But having to wait for a tier 4 tech for the grigori to build the adventurer's guild just to match the +3 a specialist gives

When ya look at it, letting the Grigori win via the alter is actually more difficult than anyone else doing so. Especially someone that can build all the religious temples and also has the philosophical trait and running pacifism. Sure, they will get their first Great Prophet about the time the Grigori get their 2nd Adventurer, but at this point they can start getting their GPs at least as fast as the Grigori can get adventurers by adding just 1 more priest specialist. Anyone going for the alter win is not going to run just 1 or 2 priest specialists, they're run as many as they can. I've had cities with more than 10 priest specialists.

In any case, I'd say the Grigori's method of building the first six levels of the alter was just as balanced as someone else running a specialist economy getting their alter built. So please put this back in.

A tower victory seems to fit them best, but without holy cities that's either going to take some serious vassaling or metamagic and a lot of patience.

Considering the Grigori can't make Great Prophet specialists (essentially), I think the Luonnatar should be able to build, well, Altar of the Luonnatar. Just make it so only units with the Hero promotion can upgrade to them. You still basically need to finish the tech tree to get the final Altar.

I'd never tried an AoL victory with the Grigori, but suspected that it was possible. I decided to attempt it, and was successful:

Spoiler victory screenshot :

The key was to use Theocracy to enable Priest specialists, and then cast Ardor to make enough Great Prophets:

Spoiler Ardor's reward :

The Grigori don't need to be able to use Luonnotars to build the first six levels of the Altar. Restoring that ability for flavor purposes sounds fine to me, but maybe only after they have achieved a high level (as per Avahz Darkwood's suggestion). I don't think getting 6 high-level Luonnotars would be easier than getting 6 Great Prophets using Theocracy+Ardor.

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More Food For Thought: Grigori Religious Victory

 

[dyvim]

Well for me theocracy should be forbidden as civic for Cassiel...

 

[Kyroshill]

You also played well more than 1000 turns to get there...... not sure many of us have a system of playing that deep into a game...... I know I don't..... If I haven't eliminated all the AIs by turn 600.... I can expect pretty frequent CtDs and MAFs......

OK... so it's possible..... but entirely impractical and highly unlikely......

And I agree about Theocracy..... if you have no religion, how can you have a Theocracy?

 

[WarKirby]

they should definitely have that ability.

 

[apotheoser]

My last game as Grigori I won a Tower of Mastery victory. Somewhat easier when you have "All Unique Features".

Glad to see someone did an AoL victory with them. I had wondered about doing it with Theocracy. Interesting to know.

I don't think it's necessary to block the Grigori from Theocracy, though. They do have a sort of alternative theology (one ultimate creator god somewhere) that could be the basis for it. They just don't think any of the gods of Erebus are real/worth worshiping/whatever.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Most Grigori don't believe in The One, and Cassiel won't tell them because he doesn't believe The One wants worship. The Luonnatar don't have enough influence to form a theocracy.

Thematically, Godking shouldn't be available to Cassiel either. Both should probably have some bonus for the Illians though, since they are very religious despite worshiping only their leader instead of the main religions.

 

[Fenboy]

Perhaps only Lunnotar promoted from Adventurers should be able to build the Altar?

 

[apotheoser]

Most Grigori don't believe in The One, and Cassiel won't tell them because he doesn't believe The One wants worship. The Luonnatar don't have enough influence to form a theocracy.

Thematically, Godking shouldn't be available to Cassiel either. Both should probably have some bonus for the Illians though, since they are very religious despite worshiping only their leader instead of the main religions.

That's true, but why shoe-horn the player into certain behaviors, or forbid others? Rarely a good design decision in my opinion.

But if we did want to, giving God King a penalty to :GP: in the capital would be the easiest way to discourage the Grigori from GK.

 

[Emptiness]

You also played well more than 1000 turns to get there...... not sure many of us have a system of playing that deep into a game...... I know I don't..... If I haven't eliminated all the AIs by turn 600.... I can expect pretty frequent CtDs and MAFs......

OK... so it's possible..... but entirely impractical and highly unlikely......

I was playing on Marathon game speed, so the turn limit is 1800 rather than 690 like in Normal speed. Turn 1169 Marathon is about the equivalent of turn 448 Normal.

 

[Rystic]

I think if you can go Elohim-Veil, you should be allowed to go God-King Grigori.

 

[Korias]

Yeah, Theocracy is the civic you need for this.
However, it is possible if you're playing a Good Leader and get lucky with an Amathon Event and get the GP there. Building the 1st level of the AoL grants 1 Priest Specialist slot, therefore letting you start generating Prophet GPP.

 

[Calavente]

or you may get one in a donjon or an epic lair

 

[Imuratep]

That's true, but why shoe-horn the player into certain behaviors, or forbid others? Rarely a good design decision in my opinion.

But good design also means to support the lore in a certain way. People should be able to play against a civ's lore, that's right. But along a civ's lore too. And their lore is not supported at all by the game. The only thing they get is an early rush mechanic that's useless in peacetimes. Strange for the number 2 of the peacemongers, isn't it. Elohim at least have some peaceful features (Worldspell, Corlindale), but Grigori nothing, nothing, nothing...
How do Grigori players solve this in RPG games? You may not go to war without a good reason, but you have a warmonger-only mechanic that you can't use.

 

[apotheoser]

But good design also means to support the lore in a certain way. People should be able to play against a civ's lore, that's right. But along a civ's lore too. And their lore is not supported at all by the game.

Lore. lol.

 

[Imuratep]

Yes, lore. The term usually used for "the background of a certain civ" in this forum. If you want another word for it, replace all instances for "lore" with "background", the point is the same.

 

[apotheoser]

Yes, lore. The term usually used for "the background of a certain civ" in this forum. If you want another word for it, replace all instances for "lore" with "background", the point is the same.

Well, I disagree. Regardless, as you said yourself, the game has almost 0 support for the Grigori lore. If you decide it's absolutely untenable as is, you have two choices. You can introduce gameplay changes solely for the purpose of reconciling the game with the lore (terrible idea) or you can relax your view of the lore. The lore is 100% fiction in the first place, so I don't really see the problem with the second solution. The first solution results in you potentially screwing the game up, so I don't think that's a good solution.

 

[Imuratep]

If it is a gameplay change that fits and gives the playstyle of the Grigori a new twist, I don't see what's the problem. The old way Luonatar were implemented IMHO was a good twist as it solved two problems. First you could use adventurers for something else than leading wars and secondly you could get Altars without breaking the lore by using Theocracy. You could win using Grigori-only mechanics along the lore. Also I don't see why too early altar victories should be the result of this. You still have to get Omniscience and Righteousness and unless the other civs you only have one possibility to get a free tech.
Perhaps someone that had the pleasure to play with the old mechanic can give us the avarage turn he won with it because right now I can't really imagine.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Grigori Theocracy = Militant Atheism?

God King should just be renamed to fit most of the civs.

 

[Domingo]

Well the Grigori people often do end up with religions, it's just the leadership that refuses to acknowledge them. I could see God King working for them (ie. strictly following Cassiel) but Theocracy does seem a bit of a stretch.

Gameplay-wise it seems okay for Luonnotar of a certain level to create the altar.

 

[Kyroshill]

Well the Grigori people often do end up with religions, it's just the leadership that refuses to acknowledge them. I could see God King working for them (ie. strictly following Cassiel) but Theocracy does seem a bit of a stretch.

Gameplay-wise it seems okay for Luonnotar of a certain level to create the altar.

Of course Grigori cities have religions..... Cassiel doesn't support them, but doesn't persecute them either. However, a theocracy is much like an ecclesia.... the Church would make the rules.... in the case of the Grigori, which Church?

God-King is a naming problem.... I think of the civic as more of a centrally-controlled form of government early on, if it doesn't fit the leader. I figure, your first city will be the seat of your government to start. Eventually, a 2nd city will be founded, relying heavily on the favors of the citizens of the 1st city in many cases. Therefore, the 1st city (probably your capital) demands something in return.... in this case, gold and raw materials. Once several cities in addition to your cap are in existence, the concept starts to fall apart if a heavy-hand isn't used. So eventually, it makes economic sense to switch to a more sprawl-oriented civic (City States or Aristocracy).

So while Cassiel would never permit worship of him, city leaders may still expect tribute from other nearby establishments, at least early on.