guerillas, missunderestimated?

[BrianJ]

I only just started playing C3C so have not really got to use Guerillas much.

The only thing I've had to try so far is that my cav died against a city riflemen defender (several times) but the guerillas defeated it no problem..

 

[a4phantom]

Originally posted by AdHHH
What about giving a Guerilla the road movement ability that a unit had in Civ2? (Was it the old guerilla, or partisan or something). The only reason I have guerilla units is because swordsman and med inf are useful units in their age and i tend not to disband units.

That's another good idea. It would allow the guerilla to dance in and out of mountains and impassable terrain, but you would have to end its turn on the square it pillaged. On the other hand, it would not retreat when attacked as it does with 2 moves.

 

[AdHHH]

Agreed; it could 'hold' pillaged tiles (like iron/coal hills, or whatever) but if it could retreat, then it could go on and pillage again, which may make it too powerful. In this case two Guerillas moving together would be quite strong because the 0 range bombard would be in effect, helping to counter whatever was attacking it/them.

 

[a4phantom]

What stats would you give it?

 

[AdHHH]

I wouldnt change the ADM, or artillery strengths, otherwise it would be too strong, however I agree that it is too weak in its current guise. Giving it road movement and allowing it to pillage freely whilst it moves would make it a useful tool, moving 2 means u could pillage 5 tiles, and leave both on a mountain/hill/forest, which would leave it sufficiently well defended (because of the def. bonus and the 0 range bombard).

 

[a4phantom]

I think with two moves and all tiles as roads you'd still only be able to pillage two tiles., although you'll have two moves to get onto each.

 

[AdHHH]

Yeah but then you could move 5 spaces into enemy territory and pillage rubber/iron/coal or whatever, which would render the explorer unit useless?

 

[a4phantom]

Yeah, that's why for me it's a question of 2 moves or all terrain as roads, not both.

 

[AdHHH]

Does that just leave using all terrain as road on a 1 MP and having pillage as using the turn, what do u think?

 

[a4phantom]

That's probably how I'll do it, although then they can't retreat. But it would allow them to move better in mountains and jungles than tanks can, which is realistic and fits the unit's role.

 

[AdHHH]

You could also give them the ability to build fortresses, which would also reflect (to some extent) the "units role". However that would have to be the maximum amount of strengthening they need.

 

[a4phantom]

Interesting thought, that hadn't occured to me. So you could send anonymous guerillas into enemy territory, particularly if the enemy's offensive troops are engaged on another border. Send them to the square where the enemy's rubber is, pillage it and the surrounding roads, and then build a fortress on it.

You could also use this to occupy enemy resources after a peace treaty was signed, simply replace your troops with anonymous guerillas in a fortress. If it's on a mountain, it could take them a long time to knock them out, slowing their recovery.

 

[AdHHH]

Do you mean making them unflagged units, in the style of Privateers? I think that would make them too powerful as you could enter enemy territory and pillage x, y and z reources/tiles/luxuries before starting a war. I think giving them road ability and maybe the ability to make fortresses would be fine; 2 Guerilla units fortified with a fortress on a mountain would take quite some time to dislodge; so much so I expect the AI would ignore the units (as they aren't doing a great deal of harm) rather than take them on, unless the AI had artillery (which it usually doesn't).

 

[a4phantom]

Yeah, for me making them unflagged (hidden nationality) is a given - they're guerillas! Many of the conflicts of the last 50 years have been between nations and nationless groups funded by another power, which of course denies it (except for the Contras, which the US openly supported). That ability is what I am basing the unit around, and I am trying to figure out the cost, ADM and other abilities necessary to make this work. I'm removing stealth attack from my plan, as it's simply too powerful with "all terrain as roads". So if you have wounded units or cavalry (because of their weak defense) near your borders, they'll need escorts.

 

[DoubleT]

Havent used them taht much, but they are cool units

 

[AdHHH]

Maybe but Guerilla tactics is simply a recognition of the fact that the units don't fight in a 'conventional' way (i.e. running around a battlefield). A great deal of the Vietcong were 'Guerillas' but were certainly not nationless. My fear would be an unflagged land unit would be used as an exploit; in my current game i have 3 gem units on the border with Korea, if they had an unflagged Guerilla they could pillage these tiles (they are currently undefended as I only recently took the area), which are literally keeping my Civ from unrest. All Im saying is that with that kind of unit war could go on until the end of each game once the tech was acquired, and no Civ would ever have to declare war (thus avoiding WW).

 

[a4phantom]

Just like in real life.

 

[AdHHH]

The US was formally at war with 'North Vietnam' though; i think a lot of these problems could be ironed out if Civ3 'updated' barbarian units (say, keeping 1 tech behind the Civs' military technology), then there could be guerilla wars, civil wars etc. but this doesn't seem possible...

 

[Denarr]

If you're going to alter guerilla then the most you should do is give them "all terrain as roads".
Their primary useage was for suprise attacks behind enemy lines.
They weren't all that stealthy compared to other units, but the small degree of extra stealthiness they did have would be more than compensated by being able to move through enemy territory relatively unhindered.
Only engineers were used for building roads, fortifications, etc., and that is what workers are for.
If you think a unit should exist for slipping invisibly in and out of enemy territory, and be able to build roads, forts, etc., while never giving away its nationality, then you should add the extremely expensive "Super spy" as a custom unit.
Also remember that what ever you do to a unit, your opponents will have access to them, as well.

 

[a4phantom]

Adhhh,
But we were not at war with the Sandinistas or the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Denarr,
My guerilla certainly won't be able to build roads, I do wish that there was a weaker version of the fortress available, maybe a stronghold that could be quickly constructed that provided a 25% bonus and ZOC. And of course the AI or other players will have access to the unit, why would I think or want otherwise?