Guide to Properties (crime, pollution, disease, flammability, tourism)

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Pests were not included in the Disease calculations Table, or should have their own table?

The design for 6-8 Pest problems to hit a city that just turns size 6 is very poorly done. The City will Immediately will have 6 citizens and you will have to scramble to add both Happiness buildings And Disease mitigating buildings for a double wammy. This is really exposed when you capture cities or have new frontier cities on a different landmass that reach pop 6.

These Pests should not all come at once. But should be staggered. I think we have several city pop levels that release new properties/things (for want of the right word) such as 6 and 13. Why not split this group of 8 total (iirc) Pest groups up?

As soon as the messages upper middle Main screen start posting:
Pest Ticks in Kansas City
Pest Lice In Kansas city
Pests Bedbugs in K.C.
Pests Mosquitos " "
Pests Crows ""
yada, yada yada

You know that city is in the toilet for anything productive. One thing to be Glad over is to hope that it doesn't happen to a frontier or border city during war time.

JosEPh

As I said elsewhere I disagree.

 

[JosEPh_II]

As I said elsewhere I disagree.

Yes I know and responded in the Pest thread with more details. I just happen to disagree with your assessment though.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

Disease

Disease (as well as Crime and Pollution) work a bit like Education and Tourism, but with added complexity due to diffusion.

Disease is modified each turn the following way:

Reduce the total by 4%. This applies to positive or negative disease, so it'll trend towards 0.
Diffuse the total to nearby tiles (see below)
Increase by the city's population, so a size 10 city will get 10 disease per turn (in addition to the decay).
Decrease (or increase) by the disease provided by the buildings in the city and your civics


Diffusion means that some disease on a tile is transferred to nearby tiles that have less disease. The amount transferred is equal to 5% of the difference for a diffusion from a city tile, to 20% for a diffusion towards a city tile and 4% between two non-city tiles. Disease can only spread on tiles owned by someone.

Like education and tourism, the disease level in a city will theoretically trend towards a limit of 25 times the disease produced by various sources. However, due to diffusion, it'll take much more time to actually reach that limit (since other tiles act as buffer and also "store" disease) and diffusion from other cities may alter the actual limit (so if you have a very diseased city, its disease will slowly contaminate nearby city and increase their theoretical limit).

Disease only has an effect on cities; disease on plots only "store" it for it to eventually diffuse again to cities later on if their disease level decreases. Negative disease has no effect, but positive disease leads to actual disease "buildings" appearing in the city:

Min disease level	Disease	Prereq Tech	Prereq Bonus	Prereq Pest	Obsolete tech			Special
1	Disease (Common Cold)	 	 	 	 	-1	 	 
50	Disease (Scurvy)	 	 	 	Modern Health Care	-1	 	+1 health with Lemon bonus
50	Disease (Dysentery)	 	 	 	Modern Health Care	-3	 	+1 health with Sanitation and Modern Sanitation techs
100	Disease (Swine Flu)	 	 	 	Smart Drugs	-1	 	 
100	Disease (Bird Flu)	 	Poultry or Parrot	 	Smart Drugs	-1	 	 
100	Disease (Anthrax)	 	Sheep or Cow	 	Smart Drugs	-1	 	 
100	Disease (Cholera)	Waterworks	 	 	Smart Drugs	-4	 	+1 health with Sanitation and Modern Sanitation techs
100	Disease (Diphtheria)	Trade	 	 	Medicine	-2	 	 
100	Disease (HIV)	Genetics	 	 	Homo Superior	-5	-2	 
100	Disease (Leprosy)	Crop Rotation	 	 	Modern Health Care	-2	-1	 
100	Disease (Measles)	Anatomy	 	 	Modern Health Care	-3	 	 
100	Disease (Scarlet Fever)	Biology	 	 	Smart Drugs	-3	 	 
150	Disease (Malaria)	 	 	Mosquitoes	Modern Health Care	-4	 	 
150	Disease (Typhoid Fever)	Sedentary Lifestyle	 	 	Antibiotics	-3	-1	+1 health with Sanitation tech
200	Disease (Bubonic Plague)	Agricultural tools	 	Fleas	Modern Health Care	-5	-2	 
200	Disease (Smallpox)	Sedentary Lifestyle	 	 	Antibiotics	-5	-2

This synopsis of diseases is incomplete without adding in the Pests that also generate disease. (2 are included in the Table but 11 are not)

There 20 Pests, of those 20, 13 give disease. 1 gives +1 and 12 give +5. There is 1 that is rather baseless for it's disease addition and I propose to remove that property from that pest (Gophers) a +5 disease addition. Gophers are generally Not considered to be disease carriers as they are more solitary than pack animals. They do Structural damage to fields, dams, embankments, and other structures of these types, which is accounted for in their set up.

As it is right now Pests start at City Pop 5 (5 pests show up here and ALL 5 carry disease for a total of +21 disease added).
Next at Pop 6 you have 8 pest show up (4 with disease for an additional Disease hit of +20)
Pop 7 is next and you only have to battle 2 pests neither of which give disease but does affect commerce yields
Finally at Pop 13 you have the final group of 5 (4 of which carry Disease for another +20 hit).

As you can see when the pests are all implemented you have an additional +61 disease to deal with that the above table and dissertation does not include.

It would seem that Disease uses 2 different systems, the Main Disease system uses iHealth, while other Disease giving conditions/contributors, ie. pests, pollution, etc. use the Property system which adds +1 to +25 Disease ( +25 is the highest I've seen so far but is not necessarily the highest). And another aspect of Disease is that other Special Buildings like Tourism Levels 1-10 (for ex.) gives pollution which in turn generates Disease, another source adding to the Disease Total. (The more I dig the more I now understand why Disease makes Rapid and Sudden Jumps in intensity. Many triggers.)

I will be presenting a proposal of reordering of Pests in the Pest Thread.

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

Swine Flu should require Pigs resource. If it doesn't it should be fixed.

It's Prereq is Bonus Pig.

JosEPh

 

[Rwn]

Ah, you're right, I forgot it in the table.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>


Crime

Crime works the same way as Disease with regards to decay and diffusion, with the only exception that the population effect is higher (Nightmare/Prince generate 4 crime per pop, Nightmare/Emperor 5 per pop)

As pop effect and sources of crime are usually higher than for the other properties (typically five times), expect your Crime rate to reach much higher (or lower) values.

When Crime reaches a certain level in your city, new "Crime" buildings will appear - Murder, Pickpocket, etc. Most of those buildings are unlocked at specific techs (not just by Crime level) so you may find yourself with a big hit on your economy after researching a tech due to a range of Crime building suddenly appearing.

There are many, many crime building with various prerequisites, maluses and even bonuses; the list below just gives the main effects for all crimes (sorted chronologically by unlock tech) to keep things readable.

Prereq tech|Min Crime|Crime||||%|%|%|%|%|%
|515|Crime (Kidnapping)||-3|||||||
|525|Crime (Rape)|-2|-3|||||||
|700|Crime (Murder)|-6|-3|||||||
Scavenging|275|Crime (Mugging)|-3|-2|-10||||||
Shelter Building|325|Crime (Burglary)||-2|-5||||||
Cultural Identity|1350|Crime (Sectarian Violence)|-40|-20|||||||
Personal Adornment|35|Crime (Pickpocketing)||-1|-1||||||
Personal Adornment|340|Crime (Identity Theft)||-1|-15||||||
Barter|160|Crime (Shoplifting)||-1|-2||||||
Warfare|300|Crime (Fighting)|-3|-2|||||||
Barter|475|Crime (Bribery)||-2|||||||-20
Warfare|500|Crime (Gangs)|-5|-3|-10||||||
Warfare|920|Crime (Looting)||-3|-50|-20|||||
Warfare|1050|Crime (Rioting)|-20|-8|-50|-30|-30||||
Warfare|1100|Crime (Gang Warfare)|-12|-4|||||||
Fire Making|250|Crime (Arson)|-2|-2|||||||
Chiefdom|1070|Crime (Power Struggles)|-2|-4|||||||
Conduct|725|Crime (Corruption)||-3|-20||||||-30
Trade|1|Crime (Soliciting)||-2|||||||
Fermentation|30|Crime (Public Intoxication)||-1|||||||
Trade|425|Crime (Black Markets)|-4|-2||-10|-20||||
Oratory|25|Crime (False Accusations)||-1|||||||
Writing|75|Crime (Forgery)||-1|-5||||||
Currency|70|Crime (Blackmail)||-1|||||||
Currency|100|Crime (Counterfeiting)||-1|-15||||||
Currency|140|Crime (Extortion)||-2|||||||
Alphabet|175|Crime (Illegal Immigration)||-2||||||-10|
Military Training|460|Crime (Military Desertion)||-2|||||||
Currency|1320|Crime (Rogue Mercenaries)||-4|||||||
Code of Laws|500|Crime (Vigilantism)||1|-5||||||-20
Drug Trade|450|Crime (Drugs)|-5|-2|-30||||||
Drug Trade|1180|Crime (Drug Cartels)|-30|-12|||||||
Sanitation|10|Crime (Littering)|-1|-1|-1||||||
Aesthetics|20|Crime (Graffiti)||-1|||||||
Insurance|120|Crime (Insurance Fraud)||-1|-10||||||
Papacy|42|Crime (Flashing)||-1|||||||
Usury|90|Crime (Embezzlement)||-1|-10||||||
Usury|180|Crime (Tax Evasion)||-1|-20||||||
Surveying|75|Crime (Tresspassing)||-1|||||||
Banking|350|Crime (Bank Robbery)|-2|-1|-25||||||
Matchlock|620|Crime (Armed Communities)|-3|-1|||||||
Corporation|300|Crime (Money Laundering)||-2|-25||||||
Corporation|530|Crime (Corporate Manslaughter)|-6|-2|-15||||||
Stock Brokering|220|Crime (Insider Trading)||-2|||-10||||
Stock Brokering|550|Crime (Stock Market Rigging)||-2|-50||||||
Constitution|900|Crime (Prison Breakouts)||-3|||||||
Emancipation|1000|Crime (Human Trafficking)|-4|-6|||||||
Military Tradition|450|Crime (Insubordination)||-2|||||||
Wildlife Conservation|600|Crime (Poaching)|-2|-2|||||||
Modern Sanitation|10|Crime (Toilet Papering)||-1|||||||
Labor Union|60|Crime (Welfare Fraud)||-1|-5||||||
Labor Union|310|Crime (Racketeering)||-2|||-5||||
Labor Union|520|Crime (Child Labor)|-1|-2|||||-15|-15|
Semi-Automatic Weapons|840|Crime (Gun Rampage)|-3|-6|||||||
Women's Suffrage|50|Crime (Sexual Harassment)||-1|||||||
Women's Suffrage|240|Crime (Domestic Violence)|-1|-2|||||||
Motorized Transportation|50|Crime (Drunk Driving)|-1|-1|-5||||||
Motorized Transportation|130|Crime (Car Chase)|-1|-1|-5||||||
Motorized Transportation|400|Crime (Car Theft)||-2|-15||||||
Motorized Transportation|1125|Crime (Car Bombing)|-3|-4|-5||||||
Compulsory Education|55|Crime (Truancy)||-1|||||-5||
Flight|1300|Crime (Aircraft Hijacking)|-4|-8|-10||||||
Automatic Weapons|650|Crime (Weapons Trafficking)|-6|-1|||||||
Automatic Weapons|950|Crime (Organized Crime)|-8|-6|-10||||||-20
Applied Economics|410|Crime (Ponzi Schemes)||-2|-30||-10||||
Modern Health Care|190|Crime (Elder Abuse)|-3|-1|||||||
Modern Health Care|560|Crime (Medical Fraud)|-6|-2|-10||||||
Modern Health Care|580|Crime (Organ Trafficking)|-6|-1|||||||
Personal Computers|150|Crime (Hacking)||-1||||-5||-5|-5
Minority Rights|250|Crime (Hate Crime)|-2|-2||||||-10|
Ecology|200|Crime (Animal Abuse)||-1|||||||
Ecology|600|Crime (Environmental Dumping)|-8|-3|||||||
Modern Sports|350|Crime (Sports Riots)|-4|-2|-10||||||
Fiber Optics|15|Crime (Online Piracy)||1|-2||||||
Fiber Optics|100|Crime (Internet Fraud)||-1|-10||||||
Genetics|380|Crime (Gene Forgery)||-2|-15||||||
Urban Culture|780|Crime (School Shootings)|-3|-4|||||||
Cloud Computing|15|Crime (Malware)||-1|-10||||-5||-20
Cloning|870|Crime (Unlicensed Cloning)|-2|-4|||||-10||
Online Community|10|Crime (Cyberbullying)||-1|||||||
Cyberwarfare|820|Crime (Cyberwarfare)||-2|-40||||-20||-100
Personal Robots|750|Crime (Asimov Tampering)|-1|-2|||||||
Mind Uploading|1280|Crime (Illegal Brainwashing)|-2|-6|||||||-200
Time Travel|1500|Crime (Timeline Tampering)||-20||||-50|-50|-50|-50

I will be using this table as a basis in the Modmod Thread Crime revisited.

JosEPh

 

[Yudishtira]

Can we have some brainstorming to find some other way of doing disease and crime control other than by using units? It's a real problem when the majority of units defending any cities are crime prevention and disease control.

In particular, in early ancient, town watchmen are too strong. You can't get str 5 archers or axemen yet, just spears, javelineers and rams (and horses). City military defenders are unnecessary if a city with a crime problem is properly policed.

I suggest town watchman should be str 3. If necessary he could have a slightly increased bonus against criminals.

 

[Arakhor]

One way of doing crime control is simply to avoid slapping crime penalties on several gold buildings. I'm sure that rapidly spiralling crime and disease lead to AI unit spam and I would almost guarantee that if there were anti-pollution units, the AI would spam those, given how indiscriminately pollution is ladled onto production/resource buildings.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Crime has been interwoven into so many buildings and different properties that I'm having a tough time putting the pieces into any semblance of order.

And while TB disagrees with me Hydro did make Crime an overarching problem that does control the gameplay. Just the way it is.

Sidenote: Preh Era has too many Crimes 14, while Ancient only has 5. Crime starts too strong too early.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Can we have some brainstorming to find some other way of doing disease and crime control other than by using units? It's a real problem when the majority of units defending any cities are crime prevention and disease control.

In particular, in early ancient, town watchmen are too strong. You can't get str 5 archers or axemen yet, just spears, javelineers and rams (and horses). City military defenders are unnecessary if a city with a crime problem is properly policed.

I suggest town watchman should be str 3. If necessary he could have a slightly increased bonus against criminals.

Playtesting on this end suggests:
1) Promos for disease control need to be shifted forward so that you get a bit more strength in disease control in the Ancient era. Just fine as is for Prehistoric.

2) Crime control units need an early 1 pt/1str version like the Wise Woman is for early healing. I'm thinking perhaps at Cooperation but maybe later still. (Enforcers)

3) Crime control units shouldn't be getting a free promotion. The places on the tree where those promotions grow stronger are appropriate if not a bit early, particularly considering how you can't get a unit for crime control yet but I wouldn't go out of my way to change it.

4) Crime control units should not be extremely valid as city defenders. Under Size Matters they start with 3.33 str. Adjusting them to a base 3 and adjusting their Combat Quality or Group Size upwards to get them back to the core game start strength may be necessary.

5) They should be very strong against criminals - but not necessarily Strike Teams.

Crime has been interwoven into so many buildings and different properties that I'm having a tough time putting the pieces into any semblance of order.

And while TB disagrees with me Hydro did make Crime an overarching problem that does control the gameplay. Just the way it is.

Sidenote: Preh Era has too many Crimes 14, while Ancient only has 5. Crime starts too strong too early.

JosEPh

Yeah, my wife and I are playtesting through an Emperor level team game. I let crime go up to over 500 and disease to over 1k and it didn't exactly shut me down. Didn't even cause me all that much in terms of happiness problems although once it did start to create a problem there I started valuing getting on top of it more. Gold was the biggest impactor (and it should've been I think.) It was just a priority to get some other things done first before getting control over it again. Mind you, on Rev it may be a lot more important to maintain concern there. It wasn't until mid Ancient that I began to care one bit about the impact I was getting from crime and disease.

On Deity I'm thinking it's going to be even more important to keep on top of though.

Again... Rev seems to be the setting that makes crime really REALLY matter. I think a lot of that is because the tag that's supposed to make Revolution sentiment in the local area stronger makes it stronger in all cities, not just the one city. THAT is a known bug (and one I might feel inclined to fix soon.)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have always said that the early crimes were wrong. They can't be crimes until the majority of people agree that they are crimes.

 

[Harrier]

Can someone do something about flamability. At the moment, it is useless. I am in the Industrial era and ignored it completely - with no disadvantages what so ever in my current game. Surely when it gets to particular levels, it should cause fires. But in about 10 games - only 1 fire event.

It needs to be made stronger - or removed. IMO

More chances of fires based on the flamability value, more events causing fires (Great fire of London - Rome while Nero fiddled - etc).

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have always said that the early crimes were wrong. They can't be crimes until the majority of people agree that they are crimes.

Whether something is considered a crime or not doesn't make a behavior less negative to society. In some cases it does make a difference because the damage is really manifested by the perception of it being damaging. Yes... that can happen imo.

But if people go around murdering people and its not considered a crime it doesn't change the fact that its causing damage. There's always rules. Spoken or unspoken. It's got to be obvious to any society back through monkeys that killing your own people over selfish motives is going to cause problems for the community.

So a primitive society hasn't define 'crimes' so doesn't label negative actions as 'crimes'. That doesn't make bad behavior any more acceptable or any less addressable. There's probably always been those in the community whom would try to bring a stop to obviously bad behaviors when they observe others doing those things. This could be as simple as not doing as the elders or the chief has said needs to be done or doing something they've been told not to. The role of the Enforcer would've been early and if childhood suggests anything, probably began with parenting and thus the ROLE in a community would've been given to elders and those who had the deepest respect for those elders to enforce upon others the social strata.

By this logic, most BASIC crimes should very well be defined immediately in the Prehistoric era. It's more clever crimes that should unlock as time goes on, and those that society starts beginning to define as crimes for deeper sociological reasons.

Can someone do something about flamability. At the moment, it is useless. I am in the Industrial era and ignored it completely - with no disadvantages what so ever in my current game. Surely when it gets to particular levels, it should cause fires. But in about 10 games - only 1 fire event.

It needs to be made stronger - or removed. IMO

I get buildings burning all the time. I find it frustrating as it is tbh. Can't hardly ever keep a smokehouse without it going up in flames. However, that's probably about right. Maybe the balance begins to fall out after Prehistoric.

Personally I think Flammability would be better served as a dynamic property myself but that's a big project.

 

[Arakhor]

Another thing that would be a superb idea would be a building filter based on "no air/land pollution", similar to the "no unhealthiness" or "no unhappiness" filters. My most recent game reached the late Industrial era for the first time ever (after 70 hours or so) and suddenly my build lists were filled with endless factories, all of which provide pollution, more pollution and even more pollution.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Another thing that would be a superb idea would be a building filter based on "no air/land pollution", similar to the "no unhealthiness" or "no unhappiness" filters. My most recent game reached the late Industrial era for the first time ever (after 70 hours or so) and suddenly my build lists were filled with endless factories, all of which provide pollution, more pollution and even more pollution.

I agree we could use more filters. AIAndy was the guy who knew the process there. It was both python and dll based. Would be very difficult to figure out at this point.

 

[stachnie]

Recently I have started a new game with the SVN version and I was wondering why my capital (size 8 or so) has so much problems with unhealthiness (-15 food or so)... It seems a temporary solution could be to build a building eliminating unhealthiness (I have both Druidism and Shamanism, and they provide such buildings).

Edit: and this is the first time I need to pay big attention to Crime.

S.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Recently I have started a new game with the SVN version and I was wondering why my capital (size 8 or so) has so much problems with unhealthiness (-15 food or so)... It seems a temporary solution could be to build a building eliminating unhealthiness (I have both Druidism and Shamanism, and they provide such buildings).

Edit: and this is the first time I need to pay big attention to Crime.

S.

Unhealthiness and Unhappiness is in large from Disease and Pests. With a Size 8 or so capital it just got hit with 41 more unhealthiness from those 2 sources starting at pop 5 thru pop 7.

And crime can add to all that with Unhappiness if you let it get above 500 when some of the more heavy malus from Crime takes affect.

JosEPh

 

[stachnie]

And crime can add to all that with Unhappiness if you let it get above 500 when some of the more heavy malus from Crime takes affect.

I noticed that when it was about 250-300 in my two greatest cities. It may be problematic especially in my capital, because it has very high Tourism, and it causes Crime. I had +5 Crime, so I built a building with -15, so it should be -10. Just before saving the game I checked and it was +2. I guess +10 from more Tourism and +2 from newely acquired Financial trait (Developing Leaders with Focused Traits and a few other sub-options).

S.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I noticed that when it was about 250-300 in my two greatest cities. It may be problematic especially in my capital, because it has very high Tourism, and it causes Crime. I had +5 Crime, so I built a building with -15, so it should be -10. Just before saving the game I checked and it was +2. I guess +10 from more Tourism and +2 from newely acquired Financial trait (Developing Leaders with Focused Traits and a few other sub-options).

S.

The dynamic system is a far more complex calculation than can easily be explained. There's a thread around here somewhere where its laid out but suffice it to say you would be hard pressed to guess what the impact of a + or - amount will actually show up as because there's numerous factors. Keep it simple - if you are at a positive and you're not dropping, you need more controls. If you're not dropping as fast as you like you need more controls. Don't drive yourself mad looking trying to calculate it, just respond further if needbe.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The dynamic system is a far more complex calculation than can easily be explained. There's a thread around here somewhere where its laid out but suffice it to say you would be hard pressed to guess what the impact of a + or - amount will actually show up as because there's numerous factors. Keep it simple - if you are at a positive and you're not dropping, you need more controls. If you're not dropping as fast as you like you need more controls. Don't drive yourself mad looking trying to calculate it, just respond further if needbe.

+1!

JosEPh