Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
What about this conversation did you want me to take note of specifically?
Guilds
- Thread starter Hydromancerx
- Start date
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Anything you had an opinion about.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ok, I've had a chance to read this through... mind you perhaps not quite as thoroughly as I should've before commenting but here's what I think:
It was floated that perhaps we shouldn't be spreading goods automatically to all cities. hmm... good idea. Perhaps it WOULD work a bit better if we were to have the 'seed good' building that gives the Good allow instead a simple specialized merchant that can be moved to another city and set up a good export to that city.
In a perfect setup, each time you build a Good producing building, it generates say 10 of these said merchants for free and you just can't build any more than that. These units must be able to somehow recall which city they are representing and when they build a Good building in another city, it sets up a gold transfer from the city it was built in to the city producing the good.
With this mechanism, we can establish the early good trade routes, volumize the system (and even possibly nearly replace resources with this by making resources basically worthless without it being converted to a good so we can volumize resources as well), and not imbalance the system when we give a good a definitive benefit to the city that has it.
Then when guilds are introduced we enter into a new stage of goods and commerce. Until then we've been limited by the fact that we can't build more of these specialized goods merchants. Now, with guilds, we can build buildings that give us the abiltiy to build these goods merchants. They also perform more like corporate headquarters but are not wonders at all, buildable instead anywhere that you would qualify to build an original goods seed building.
We don't have to make a guild for every good, mind you, either. We could find ways to generalize the system.
Unlike Corporations, who have massive sweep and vast branding identities, Guilds are there to meet the needs of the people and to facilitate trading efforts on all levels. They are not going to be unique, exclusive, or extremely competitive as the concept is more a matter of making sure bases are covered than trying to extort a monopolization over competitors.
At Corporations we enter a third stage wherin Guilds become shattered and useless as Corporations compete for control of resources for their own benefits which the nation harvests benefits from in massive (if done right) tax revenues.
Once we've established such a guilds/goods system as discussed here, we could possibly look at overhauling the corporation system entirely. But for now, we should start with this. I agree that I am terrified to even use any guilds in fear that they may clash with future corporations. I just skip using them altogether if I can.
The only thing that sounds tricky about this to me is the gold transfer when the goods trade is established... do our units currently have any coding to recal the city that they were made in and can that be leveraged into such use?
Ok, I realize my idea needs an example to explain fully:
Near the beginning of the game you build a bamboo armorer in a city that has access to bamboo (city A). City A immediately gains the benefits of a free Good (Bamboo Armor) which grants a free Bamboo Armor promotion to troops built in this city (ok this might get more complex too down the line but lets just say that for now.)
Additionally, when the Bamboo Armorer is built, 10 (or perhaps another# scalable to mapsize) Bamboo Armor Merchants tagged with a City A designation are suddenly spawned in City A. You may now send these merchants out to other cities.
When these Bamboo Armor Merchants (City A) arrive at their destinations, they may plop down a Good (Bamboo Armor) (with City A designation) into the city. This establishes that City B that just recieved this treatment now pays City A 1 gold every round. In addition, it now gains the benefit of having the Good (Bamboo Armor) but it does not enable it to now build its own Bamboo Armorer building.
In fact, we cannot build more Bamboo Armor Merchants until later down the road in technological development when we begin building guildhalls.
The Armorer's Guildhall built in City A now allows us (because we also have a Bamboo Armorer in City A) to build Bamboo Armor Merchants with City A designation. These can be sent out to establish the same basic trade routes as we had established before with our free Bamboo Armor Merchants. The Merchants are cheap to build and can spread like wildfire at this point granting far reaching wide access. If we had a Chainmail Armorer in City A we could also thus build Chainmail Goods Merchants out of City A thanks to the same Armorer's Guildhall.
Then we enter the Corporation stages of the game later on and Corporations bundle these into basic trade routes. For now, at corporations, we just switch back to the 'free good everywhere connected by trade route' system we are currently using and then allow corporations to function as they currently do.
But in looking at this in a more far reaching light, we could use this method to revamp corporations entirely into something a lot more realistic, conceptually reasonable and can be used to volumetricalize resources better. I'll keep thinking there but it would take a while just to set up the above and playtest it a bit to see what would need tweaking before revamping the corp system.
It was floated that perhaps we shouldn't be spreading goods automatically to all cities. hmm... good idea. Perhaps it WOULD work a bit better if we were to have the 'seed good' building that gives the Good allow instead a simple specialized merchant that can be moved to another city and set up a good export to that city.
In a perfect setup, each time you build a Good producing building, it generates say 10 of these said merchants for free and you just can't build any more than that. These units must be able to somehow recall which city they are representing and when they build a Good building in another city, it sets up a gold transfer from the city it was built in to the city producing the good.
With this mechanism, we can establish the early good trade routes, volumize the system (and even possibly nearly replace resources with this by making resources basically worthless without it being converted to a good so we can volumize resources as well), and not imbalance the system when we give a good a definitive benefit to the city that has it.
Then when guilds are introduced we enter into a new stage of goods and commerce. Until then we've been limited by the fact that we can't build more of these specialized goods merchants. Now, with guilds, we can build buildings that give us the abiltiy to build these goods merchants. They also perform more like corporate headquarters but are not wonders at all, buildable instead anywhere that you would qualify to build an original goods seed building.
We don't have to make a guild for every good, mind you, either. We could find ways to generalize the system.
Unlike Corporations, who have massive sweep and vast branding identities, Guilds are there to meet the needs of the people and to facilitate trading efforts on all levels. They are not going to be unique, exclusive, or extremely competitive as the concept is more a matter of making sure bases are covered than trying to extort a monopolization over competitors.
At Corporations we enter a third stage wherin Guilds become shattered and useless as Corporations compete for control of resources for their own benefits which the nation harvests benefits from in massive (if done right) tax revenues.
Once we've established such a guilds/goods system as discussed here, we could possibly look at overhauling the corporation system entirely. But for now, we should start with this. I agree that I am terrified to even use any guilds in fear that they may clash with future corporations. I just skip using them altogether if I can.
The only thing that sounds tricky about this to me is the gold transfer when the goods trade is established... do our units currently have any coding to recal the city that they were made in and can that be leveraged into such use?
Ok, I realize my idea needs an example to explain fully:
Near the beginning of the game you build a bamboo armorer in a city that has access to bamboo (city A). City A immediately gains the benefits of a free Good (Bamboo Armor) which grants a free Bamboo Armor promotion to troops built in this city (ok this might get more complex too down the line but lets just say that for now.)
Additionally, when the Bamboo Armorer is built, 10 (or perhaps another# scalable to mapsize) Bamboo Armor Merchants tagged with a City A designation are suddenly spawned in City A. You may now send these merchants out to other cities.
When these Bamboo Armor Merchants (City A) arrive at their destinations, they may plop down a Good (Bamboo Armor) (with City A designation) into the city. This establishes that City B that just recieved this treatment now pays City A 1 gold every round. In addition, it now gains the benefit of having the Good (Bamboo Armor) but it does not enable it to now build its own Bamboo Armorer building.
In fact, we cannot build more Bamboo Armor Merchants until later down the road in technological development when we begin building guildhalls.
The Armorer's Guildhall built in City A now allows us (because we also have a Bamboo Armorer in City A) to build Bamboo Armor Merchants with City A designation. These can be sent out to establish the same basic trade routes as we had established before with our free Bamboo Armor Merchants. The Merchants are cheap to build and can spread like wildfire at this point granting far reaching wide access. If we had a Chainmail Armorer in City A we could also thus build Chainmail Goods Merchants out of City A thanks to the same Armorer's Guildhall.
Then we enter the Corporation stages of the game later on and Corporations bundle these into basic trade routes. For now, at corporations, we just switch back to the 'free good everywhere connected by trade route' system we are currently using and then allow corporations to function as they currently do.
But in looking at this in a more far reaching light, we could use this method to revamp corporations entirely into something a lot more realistic, conceptually reasonable and can be used to volumetricalize resources better. I'll keep thinking there but it would take a while just to set up the above and playtest it a bit to see what would need tweaking before revamping the corp system.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Thunderbrd
Great ideas. It think this kind of thing would be a long term project to get to when more things are balanced.
Great ideas. It think this kind of thing would be a long term project to get to when more things are balanced.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
So since this topic was brought up and It doesn't seems there is much good feedback on the existing guild system I would like to remove the existing one and then overhaul it with a new non-corporation one.
Since we last posted in this thread we did not unlock unlimited goods so that is now on the table to use instead of goods (however they could still be used if we need free buildings).
And according to civpedia there are the following guilds ...
- Apothecary
- Artists
- Bakers
- Blacksmith
- Butcher
- Carpenter
- Clerks
- Drapers
- Equestrian
- Fishmonger
- Glassblowers
- Goldsmith
- Grocers
- Mason
- Mercers
I don't see why we cannot still have such guilds but have them act less like corporations and more like guilds.
Since we last posted in this thread we did not unlock unlimited goods so that is now on the table to use instead of goods (however they could still be used if we need free buildings).
And according to civpedia there are the following guilds ...
- Apothecary
- Artists
- Bakers
- Blacksmith
- Butcher
- Carpenter
- Clerks
- Drapers
- Equestrian
- Fishmonger
- Glassblowers
- Goldsmith
- Grocers
- Mason
- Mercers
I don't see why we cannot still have such guilds but have them act less like corporations and more like guilds.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I think we do need to look at the trade system as well. Especially when it comes to requiring certain goods in the vicinity of the city. There are many examples of a city importing raw goods from far away only to on sell them as they are or value adding to them. Eg Shahdad a city in a nation south of and contempary with Mesopotamia imported large blocks of lapis lasuli from the Afghan region keeping the good stuff to turn into luxury items for home consumption and selling the poorer quality stone to the Mesopotamians. Similarly the ancient Egyptians, based on archaeological evidence, never bothered to learn how to make glass it being cheaper to import coloured glass ingots for use in their bead making and glass works.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
That's a good point DH. Many of the new resources have no benefits yet (aside from building benefits).
The first thing I need to figure out is how to remove all the existing guild stuff from the core. I suspect in doing so the later corporations will be a bit healthier not having to compete with the guilds (if they have not already gone obsolete).
The first thing I need to figure out is how to remove all the existing guild stuff from the core. I suspect in doing so the later corporations will be a bit healthier not having to compete with the guilds (if they have not already gone obsolete).
I don't know, how you exactly think about guilds, but I like them very much. I really want to have them in C2C. So, maybe we find a way to let them in and let them work more like guilds. Unfortunately I have no idea how to make it - actually I see them as pre-corporations and had a lot of fun with them... so by "just" changing them, I agree.
I'm afraid that you want to take them out completely! Maybe we'll find a solution that's in between...
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I was thinking about guilds, and my idea is that Guilds could be founded by random events triggered by certain conditions that can be expressed in the Expression System.
The conditions could be mostly having x number of a related resource, as well as buildings in your cities that use those resources. If those conditions are met, then an event could trigger that gives you the Guild Founder unit, and you could found a Guild. The same thing could be done for Corporations, and Corporations could then be spread as a property in the Extended Property System.
The conditions could be mostly having x number of a related resource, as well as buildings in your cities that use those resources. If those conditions are met, then an event could trigger that gives you the Guild Founder unit, and you could found a Guild. The same thing could be done for Corporations, and Corporations could then be spread as a property in the Extended Property System.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
My personal feelings on guilds is that they work great as they are with the one exception that they may possibly end up clashing with corporations. This could simply be remedied by taking away their use of any particular resources. Remove all resource tags from them and give them decent buildings to compensate, making all of them worthwhile to hoard in every city, even if it might serve the founding cities (potentially even opponent cities) to do so and we have a great guilds system.
We also need an Alchemist's guild, a Warrior's Guild, a Thieves' Guild and an Assassin's Guild I think.
We also need an Alchemist's guild, a Warrior's Guild, a Thieves' Guild and an Assassin's Guild I think.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
When I get around to this I would like them to act differently than corporations. How it will work exactly I am not sure yet but I would like them to be unique.
Really? I almost always go for Mobby's Meats and get much more food than that. When I founded it, it already gave me 40 food, now I have well over 73 bonus food from it. I guess its because I always have an absurd amount of deer around my cites....
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Sure! Here is a beak down of the 16 new guilds. Each are national wonders and require Guilds tech plus another Medieval tech. They are no longer corporations and do not require you spread them to new cities. Each require you build 3 of a specific building and then once built in the city with that building will spread a FREE building to every city. There is some maintenance cost but it should save you lots of micromanaging by having newly founded cities starting with more buildings.
- Apothecary Guild = Apothecary
- Artists Guild = Artist Colony
- Bakers Guild = Bakery
- Blacksmith Guild = Forge
- Butcher Guild = Butchery
- Carpenter Guild = Carpenter's Workshop
- Clerks Guild = Paper Maker
- Drapers Guild = Seamstress Hut
- Equestrian Guild = Stables
- Fishmonger Guild = Fishmonger
- Glassblowers Guild = Glassblower
- Goldsmith Guild = Jewlery
- Grocers Guild = Grocer
- Mason Guild = Brick Mason
- Mercers Guild = Bazaar
- Woodcutter Guild = Lumber Camp
They also give you some culture and help improve the likelihood of different types of great people. Such as the Apothecary Guild increases your chance for a Great Doctor. There are also 3 more of the old I need to do which are ...
- Servants Guild = ?
- Victuallers Guild = Pub
- Crafts Guild = Crafts Hut
and some more I want to add that were not part of the old guilds systems such as ...
- Potters Guild = Pottery Shop
- Tailors Guild = Tailors Shop
- Apothecary Guild = Apothecary
- Artists Guild = Artist Colony
- Bakers Guild = Bakery
- Blacksmith Guild = Forge
- Butcher Guild = Butchery
- Carpenter Guild = Carpenter's Workshop
- Clerks Guild = Paper Maker
- Drapers Guild = Seamstress Hut
- Equestrian Guild = Stables
- Fishmonger Guild = Fishmonger
- Glassblowers Guild = Glassblower
- Goldsmith Guild = Jewlery
- Grocers Guild = Grocer
- Mason Guild = Brick Mason
- Mercers Guild = Bazaar
- Woodcutter Guild = Lumber Camp
They also give you some culture and help improve the likelihood of different types of great people. Such as the Apothecary Guild increases your chance for a Great Doctor. There are also 3 more of the old I need to do which are ...
- Servants Guild = ?
- Victuallers Guild = Pub
- Crafts Guild = Crafts Hut
and some more I want to add that were not part of the old guilds systems such as ...
- Potters Guild = Pottery Shop
- Tailors Guild = Tailors Shop
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Each one has its own obsolete tech. Mostly around Industrial to Modern eras. So you will get to keep them for Medieval to Renaissance for sure.
I would also like to do a similar system for the Industrial to Modern eras using Unions, Franchises and Corporations. But that will be awhile until I get to that (so much else to get done).
I would also like to do a similar system for the Industrial to Modern eras using Unions, Franchises and Corporations. But that will be awhile until I get to that (so much else to get done).
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Are they still optional or will the custom game option be removed?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
SO said he would hide the option since there is nothing to trigger anymore but removing the option would cause all current games to no longer be save compatible.
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