Guilds

[Hydromancerx]

While at the time the idea was awesome, we have come a long way since the guild corporations were made. I think its about time that mod was phased out and a new system was pout in place that utilized all the "Goods System" we currently have in C2C.

The system itself would be similar to the existing system however it would be less like a corporation and deal with all the various "Goods" rather than resources.

What do you guys think? Is it worth perusing? Please give ideas and feedback.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I dislike the guilds but currently you can't turn them off. haven't figured out why.

 

[ThoricFrame]

Aren't guilds an option you have to enable? Or is it on anyway and the option itself does nothing...

I guess working over guilds could give a reason to certain 'dead end' goods of which there seem to be many. Currently it seems maybe half of the goods are just there taking up computing resources without actually having any purpose.

I'm not really sure how a guild would use a good though, unless they just provided goods that gave bonuses? It's not like resources where they can be consumed by the guild for extra bonuses, it's always one per city...

 

[EldrinFal]

I'm not really sure how a guild would use a good though, unless they just provided goods that gave bonuses? It's not like resources where they can be consumed by the guild for extra bonuses, it's always one per city...

I was also wondering about that. With Corps, there is a benefit to having more than one of the same resource. The Goods system, since it works like Buildings, doesn't show an increasing quantity.

I'm not sure how the mechanics of the Corps work behind the scenes-- and frankly I've always been a little boggled by them in general-- but I suppose if they could be adjusted to fit a low quantity Good model it would be fine.

Unless you were able to categorize Goods. In which case the addition of a new type of Good would improve the value of the Guild. For example, if Paper, Rope, and Wax were "Dry Goods"; Cosmetics (not sure if that is a Good... yet! ), Jewelry, Hats, and Clothes were "Adornment Goods"; and then you had a Dry Goods / Adornment Goods Guild/Corp/Merchant who "sold" those goods, and the more of that category you had, the more profitable that Guild would be?

 

[Koshling]

I was also wondering about that. With Corps, there is a benefit to having more than one of the same resource. The Goods system, since it works like Buildings, doesn't show an increasing quantity.

I'm not sure how the mechanics of the Corps work behind the scenes-- and frankly I've always been a little boggled by them in general-- but I suppose if they could be adjusted to fit a low quantity Good model it would be fine.

Unless you were able to categorize Goods. In which case the addition of a new type of Good would improve the value of the Guild. For example, if Paper, Rope, and Wax were "Dry Goods"; Cosmetics (not sure if that is a Good... yet! ), Jewelry, Hats, and Clothes were "Adornment Goods"; and then you had a Dry Goods / Adornment Goods Guild/Corp/Merchant who "sold" those goods, and the more of that category you had, the more profitable that Guild would be?

Slightly (but only slightly) off topic - corporations may be a bit unbalanced in C2C due to the large city sizes it supports. In my game I founded Cereal Corp, and each city I spread it to is getting a LARGE food bonus (in the 20s for most cities). Furthermore by spamming out Great farmers and building more corn/wheat I am increasing this (food in every city in effect) bonus all the time. We might need some way to cap corporation production (or perhaps a mechanism whereby they get decreasing efficiency as their consumed product 'gluts')...

 

[EldrinFal]

Here is another seed of an idea to toss out there to be kicked around. I don't have it fully thought out, but we have some creative and insightful minds on this forum, who I think might be able to help flesh it out.

What if it were possible to corner the WORLD market on a particular good? Maybe once you have built 3 or 5 (just an arbitrary number) buildings that create a particular Good, you can then build a Guild or World Project that makes your Civ's Good the standard for which the World must follow-- or somehow gives only you the ability to be the manufacturer of that Good.

Once established, other nations could no longer make the building that produces that Good-- or they can make the building, but it doesn't produce the Good. And the only way for them to acquire it in a particular city, is by using the merchant unit to travel to the city who founded the Guild/World Project. I'm not sure how the mechanics would work with that, but if he could just travel there and then issue a command to setup the Goods trade that would be the best. An alternative would be to somehow "Upgrade" him to that Guild's unit, whereupon he has to be brought back to one of your towns to them establish that Good in the city.

Some interesting things about this would be:

1) It would give each nation a big incentive to achieve those Guilds/World Projects and create mini-races amongst the nations beyond the Tech / Land race. Some of those goods are required for key buildings, so having the Guild for it ensures you can easily have them in your towns. At the same time, it doesn't completely prevent other AIs from getting it, since they may have cities producing the Good prior to the Guild founding, and plus with a little work they can acquire it in the other towns.

2) Gives merchants a whole new purpose. Instead of acquiring money or build rushing, they now have the important, and applicable ability to bring specific Goods from other nations back to their own Civ. Merchants also become big targets if you want to prevent other nations from getting the Good, although if it brings you extra income...

3) Perhaps Great Merchants would have some ability to destroy the Guild or steal it, or found a Guild only needing 1 building, etc. Having thought about this one much, but seems like a Great Merchant could be involved.


Ok. Long post. But that is the idea I had. New take on Goods and Merchants, and a new dynamic.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@EldrinFal

I am liking where this is going. I have some ideas too.

Cultural Goods
Using the culture buildings some cultures could build a building that produces a cultural good. This could be stuff such as Good (Swiss Watches), Good (French Wine), etc. They would be unique goods that could not be made any other way and unlike normal goods they could produce a bonus.

Unit Spread Goods
Much like the subdued animals that can make buildings these new "Goods Units" can make Goods buildings that could can trade between civs. Thus you would not need to have the right city vicinity stuff since these units could directly give a city that good. For example, lets say one civ has Good (Bamboo), it could then make a unit and then sell the unit that can make that good. Once sold the other civ could then "pop" that unit and have Good (Bamboo) in the city it used it on thus unlocking things like the Bamboo Armour.

 

[EldrinFal]

@EldrinFal

I am liking where this is going. I have some ideas too.

Cultural Goods
Using the culture buildings some cultures could build a building that produces a cultural good. This could be stuff such as Good (Swiss Watches), Good (French Wine), etc. They would be unique goods that could not be made any other way and unlike normal goods they could produce a bonus.

For a moment I was thinking you meant buildings. Do you think the buildings that produce those special goods would be a World Wonder / Project? That way there is just one source and makes it even more appealing to have.

Unit Spread Goods
Much like the subdued animals that can make buildings these new "Goods Units" can make Goods buildings that could can trade between civs. Thus you would not need to have the right city vicinity stuff since these units could directly give a city that good. For example, lets say one civ has Good (Bamboo), it could then make a unit and then sell the unit that can make that good. Once sold the other civ could then "pop" that unit and have Good (Bamboo) in the city it used it on thus unlocking things like the Bamboo Armour.

The way it works now, would that mean that making the Good in a single city would spread it to all cities? Or were you thinking of scaling back some of that and not making the Goods auto spread to other cities?

 

[Hydromancerx]

For a moment I was thinking you meant buildings. Do you think the buildings that produce those special goods would be a World Wonder / Project? That way there is just one source and makes it even more appealing to have.

I ment they are linked to the Cultural buildings such as Culture (Swiss) or Culture (French). These probably would not need to be wonders since making a culture civ is hard to do. It would also make it in between a wonder good and a general good.

The way it works now, would that mean that making the Good in a single city would spread it to all cities? Or were you thinking of scaling back some of that and not making the Goods auto spread to other cities?

Ok 2 things ...

1. All the Goods are being cut back to spread to only on the same continent. Thus you could spread goods to other continents.

2. These could also spread goods to other civs you are currently trading with. For example say the Romans have cows and thus can make the Chees Maker building that produces "Good (Cheese)". They could make a unit that builds "Good (Cheese)" and sell it to you for you to make.

Note this 2nd example works for #1 too except you are just sending it over seas to part of you empire that is on another continent. It also would be useful to help your vassals get more goods and thus be more powerful allies. Plus it would probably strengthen relations if you are giving your allies units even if they are free or traded.

Just remember the goods now only spread to all cities because of the buildings they are produced by and you cannot build them otherwise. Having a unit build them would not spread the good to every city, only that particular city.

 

[EldrinFal]

I ment they are linked to the Cultural buildings such as Culture (Swiss) or Culture (French). These probably would not need to be wonders since making a culture civ is hard to do. It would also make it in between a wonder good and a general good.

Ok, so they would need to be made in the city that founded that culture, right? I don't have access to Civ right now, are those cultures considered Wonders?

Ok 2 things ...

1. All the Goods are being cut back to spread to only on the same continent. Thus you could spread goods to other continents.

2. These could also spread goods to other civs you are currently trading with. For example say the Romans have cows and thus can make the Chees Maker building that produces "Good (Cheese)". They could make a unit that builds "Good (Cheese)" and sell it to you for you to make.

Note this 2nd example works for #1 too except you are just sending it over seas to part of you empire that is on another continent. It also would be useful to help your vassals get more goods and thus be more powerful allies. Plus it would probably strengthen relations if you are giving your allies units even if they are free or traded.

I wonder how difficult it would be for the AI to know that it should do that: create those units to sell to other nations. AI nations tend to always hate me and never want to trade any techs to me etc.

Also I wonder if it will be worthwhile to trade away goods like that. Gold is in abundance right now, so for me, I wouldn't give an AI a good he doesn't have that would let him build one or more buildings unless I was somehow hurting for Gold.
That's why I suggested putting the burden on the person who wants it and make them run a unit to the city, almost "stealing" it in a way.

 

[strategyonly]

I agree got to do something about the corporations also.

Very interesting ideas here guys, keep it going, come-on everyone i am sure more people have ideas also, so write them down, weather they are good ideas, or bad, an idea is an idea.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok, so they would need to be made in the city that founded that culture, right? I don't have access to Civ right now, are those cultures considered Wonders?

Nope they are just rare to make due to them being linked to resources. See the requirements here.

I wonder how difficult it would be for the AI to know that it should do that: create those units to sell to other nations. AI nations tend to always hate me and never want to trade any techs to me etc.

Also I wonder if it will be worthwhile to trade away goods like that. Gold is in abundance right now, so for me, I wouldn't give an AI a good he doesn't have that would let him build one or more buildings unless I was somehow hurting for Gold.
That's why I suggested putting the burden on the person who wants it and make them run a unit to the city, almost "stealing" it in a way.

Well you may want to trade them for techs or just to get an AI to like you. However I agree the AI needs to be better for diplomacy trading. (Koshing?)

 

[Koshling]

Nope they are just rare to make due to them being linked to resources. See the requirements here.



Well you may want to trade them for techs or just to get an AI to like you. However I agree the AI needs to be better for diplomacy trading. (Koshing?)

Non-trivial but doable I would think.

 

[velosepappe]

I personally dont like the idea of guild wonders disabeling other nations to get the good in question by normal means, nations without a contact with your civ would be barred from these goods. But I do like the idea of trading your goods. Is there any way to make a building have a limited lifespan? For example you buy the merchant for bamboo from civ x. You sacrifice it in a city for 10 turns of good (bamboo) after which your nation needs to trade for the bamboo merchant again to keep the bamboo bonus.

 

[EldrinFal]

Nope they are just rare to make due to them being linked to resources. See the requirements here.

Is it acceptable if a Culture is founded by two nations, in two cities, on opposite ends of the world? That's why I was thinking they might be Wonders or World Projects. Yes it is rare, but it CAN happen, especially with Great Farmers. Anyhow, that's probably a discussion for another thread.

Well you may want to trade them for techs or just to get an AI to like you. However I agree the AI needs to be better for diplomacy trading. (Koshing?)

I'd be willing to trade for techs for sure, but the AI always never trades techs to me. In any game I play, they always refuse to trade their best/newest techs, at the least, and typically won't trade ANY. And that's even when I try being a NICE leader

It would be nice if there were Research or Espionage treaties/agreements. But now I'm getting off topic.

Trading units seems like an interesting idea as long as the AI can manage that diplomacy. With that in mind, you may want to consider removing "Free to All Cities on Continent" from the Goods buildings (or some) and then just require units to be made to bring that good to other cities.

OR... once several types of Goods are created/placed in a single city, you can then make the Guild there that can spread those Goods more easily.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Is it acceptable if a Culture is founded by two nations, in two cities, on opposite ends of the world? That's why I was thinking they might be Wonders or World Projects. Yes it is rare, but it CAN happen, especially with Great Farmers. Anyhow, that's probably a discussion for another thread.

I don't see why we cannot have all 3.

1. Culture Civ Goods.
2. Wonder Goods.
3. Culture Civ Wonder Goods

I'd be willing to trade for techs for sure, but the AI always never trades techs to me. In any game I play, they always refuse to trade their best/newest techs, at the least, and typically won't trade ANY. And that's even when I try being a NICE leader

It would be nice if there were Research or Espionage treaties/agreements. But now I'm getting off topic.

Trading units seems like an interesting idea as long as the AI can manage that diplomacy. With that in mind, you may want to consider removing "Free to All Cities on Continent" from the Goods buildings (or some) and then just require units to be made to bring that good to other cities.

OR... once several types of Goods are created/placed in a single city, you can then make the Guild there that can spread those Goods more easily.

I have but typically only if you are really good pals such as same religion plus same civics plus helping them when they need help.

I don't want to make every good require a unit to spread them. That is extreme micro-managing and would make it way too hard. However for rare or traded goods I can see it being doable.

As for the guilds I could see them doing a number of things ...

1. Spreading goods to all cities.
2. Giving goods that give benefits.
3. Allowing for the making of good units.
4. Making rare goods that cannot be made otherwise.
5. Giving special promotions based on goods they require.

Note these are all just ideas, not all guilds have to do all or any of these things. Just proposing ideas.

 

[EldrinFal]

I don't see why we cannot have all 3.

1. Culture Civ Goods.
2. Wonder Goods.
3. Culture Civ Wonder Goods

We can as long as it isn't confusing. I just thought a new Culture might make more sense being foundable only once, and then spreading from there, either via trade route or like a Religion.

I don't want to make every good require a unit to spread them. That is extreme micro-managing and would make it way too hard. However for rare or traded goods I can see it being doable.

Yes, you're right. There are so many it would be a pain to have to manually move them all. Most even.

As for the guilds I could see them doing a number of things ...

1. Spreading goods to all cities.
2. Giving goods that give benefits.
3. Allowing for the making of good units.
4. Making rare goods that cannot be made otherwise.
5. Giving special promotions based on goods they require.

Note these are all just ideas, not all guilds have to do all or any of these things. Just proposing ideas.

I like the idea of some providing benefits other than extra or which is in abundance. Extra culture might be one to consider. Elite versions of units, or weapon/armor upgrades like FFH does might be another idea. Though definitely that should be to a limited number of cities, if not a single city.

For some reason that made be think of a concept for Religious Relics that are like World Units, and grant benefits to either the city they are in, or units in their stack. Maybe that would fall under DH's fantasy/fictional theme though...

 

[Hydromancerx]

For some reason that made be think of a concept for Religious Relics that are like World Units, and grant benefits to either the city they are in, or units in their stack. Maybe that would fall under DH's fantasy/fictional theme though...

There was an old AND topic on relics. I think such a concept should be looked into.

Found it ...

Artifacts
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=363821&highlight=relic

I think i will post a new topic on this since its a whole other subject.

 

[EldrinFal]

I personally dont like the idea of guild wonders disabeling other nations to get the good in question by normal means, nations without a contact with your civ would be barred from these goods. But I do like the idea of trading your goods. Is there any way to make a building have a limited lifespan? For example you buy the merchant for bamboo from civ x. You sacrifice it in a city for 10 turns of good (bamboo) after which your nation needs to trade for the bamboo merchant again to keep the bamboo bonus.

It isn't too different than say a resource (marble, salt, coal, etc.) being rare and not located in your nation's vicinity. It would require a little effort to either trade for, steal, acquire, or conquer.

Also, in RL, no nation had every good/resource naturally available to them from the beginning of time. Most-- probably all-- had to trade for new goods, then adapt them to grow/raise in their own nation, if possible.

But I do think a balance is needed between making an interesting game aspect and the micro-management risk Hydro mentioned. That is why I suggested something like "Dry Goods" or "Common Goods" which would be a kind of category for those Goods which can be created relatively easily, and possibly spread as a whole by Guild or Wonder.

I still like the idea of sending a Merchant to acquire a Good from another nation.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Bumping for Thunderbrd to see.